mrmackc Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 I guess it is good that I don't have a hound dawg in this rabbit chase, but in my opinion, Mr. XCVIIIzuluVvenus got it right.too much is too much, let it pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 I guess it is good that I don't have a hound dawg in this rabbit chase, but in my opinion, Mr. XCVIIIzuluVvenus got it right.too much is too much, let it pass.I miss running rabbits with hounds man that's a hoot!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmackc Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Yes, had some good times with rabbit hounds they aren't much good for anything else, mostly just dishing out enormous amounts of unqualified love. We had every kind of mutt from chow, cocker mix and beagles. My two brothers and me spent every hour we could "out huntin'" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 The guy in the video doesn't sound or look all that old , so it kinda makes me wonder if he just got wood for LWRC rifles . Don't get me wrong , they make good stuff , but its perfect for him & I like the way he said its his rifle , but he still has a price tag on it , unless it reads " MINE " on it. LOL I also see a lot of people compare the M1 series of rifles when comparing Piston guns , that are , but much different configuration then any AR system & really no comparison . Worm can open . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmackc Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 I have found out that you should just be truthful and ask for information. Sometimes younger guys want to act older and older guys like me would like to be young and innocent, full of piss and vinegar, instead of stale beer and luke warm coffee. There is a component of the direct impingement system often left out when comparing them to a "piston" system. That is the part where the gas pushes the bolt itself forward via the gas seal rings on the bolt to delay the opening of the bolt too prematurely without having to add mass to the bolt or having to use more kinetic energy via a stiffer recoil system on the BCG, so that the BCG is traveling rearward, and has broken the inertia of the heavy BCG at rest while the chamber pressure is still high, gives just a microsecond of delay before the cam rotates the bolt and the bolt unlocks without excessive friction on the bolt lugs and the barrel extension notches. this gives more consistent final chamber pressure which enhances accuracy, and a faster resetting time of the system IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) The Bolt may move forward , if it does , I can't see it moving very far , if at all, its already locked in place & is probably forced back against the locking lugs ( not forward ) by the cartridges powder ignition against the Bolt face. The gas pressure behind the bullet , with some of it being directed down the gas tube to force the Bolt Carrier back to unlock the bolt . That is a timing effect, with the pressure drop & fired case cooling & contracting from the Chamber walls . Gas pressure drops dramatically , once the Bullet exits the Muzzle . The gas rings on the Bolt are to seal that chamber behind the Bolt , in the Bolt Carrier ,so the gas pressure can push the Bolt Carrier rearward ,to move the Bolt out of breach lock , by the Cam path in the Bolt Carrier. So , I don't think the Bolt Moves forward at all , what helps it unlock is the loss of pressure in the chamber & the Cartridge cooling & contracting & Caming of the Bolt Carrier . Edited September 11, 2015 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 I saw an article by some industry guy much smarter than me that talked about exactly what mrmackc described. Was trying to Google it up with no luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmackc Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 You are right the bolt can't move forward , it is delayed from moving back with the BCG which is pushed rearward by the gas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted September 12, 2015 Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 I saw an article by some industry guy much smarter than me that talked about exactly what mrmackc described. Was trying to Google it up with no luck.Maybe Mr Raley;"In the AR, the operating rod is the gas itself. Instead of a push rod in contact with the top of the bolt carrier, gas is diverted from the barrel, down a tube, and directed into the bolt carrier (gas cylinder) directly. When the gas fills the chamber behind the piston it pushes the piston forward (easing unlocking) and the bolt carrier backwards. The piston attached to the bolt, stops moving forward when it hits the barrel, focusing the rest of the gas rearward on and in the carrier. As the carrier moves rearward, it rotates the bolt by contacting the cam-pin in the groove freeing it to continue rearward travel until stopped by the recoil spring and buffer in the receiver extension tube."http://forum.308ar.com/topic/11818-debate/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 12, 2015 Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 How can the Bolt move forward ? Take an unmounted Barrel & a Bolt , with an spent , fired case & lock the Bolt & spent case in the Chamber & tell me how mush you can move it . You have to remember that when that case was fired , it had about 50,00CUP forcing it back against the Bolt Face & any play , which there would be none , because the Bolt is locked in place by Bolt Locking Lugs , against the Chamber of the Barrel . Why do you think you have Head Spacing ? You could say the equalizing of pressure , when the pressure in the chamber & gas pressure from the gas tube filled or pressurized the Bolt Carrier , relieved any rearward pressure from Powder charge ignition & that not moving forward , its just going back to head space tolerances . How are you saying the Bolt is a Piston , when does it move , pistons move , its why they are called pistons , the BC is the Piston , because it moves when gas pressure fills that chamber behind the Gas rings , the Bolt with its gas rings , keep a seal in the chamber , to provide consistent gas pressure for continued rearward movement of the Bolt Carrier & with the direct link of the Bolt to the Carrier by the Cam Pin , it ( Bolt ) is dragged along with the rearward travel of the Real Piston , the Bolt Carrier . The Bolt is nothing more than a locking & unlocking device , with the added, sealing gas rings & of course Components to Extract & Eject the spent fired case . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted September 12, 2015 Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 How are you saying the Bolt is a Piston , when does it move , pistons move , its why they are called pistons It rotates, which is certainly movement, but it's description as a piston in this case is certainly not in the conventional sense but does meet the technical definition of a piston. It's movement is simply along a different axis than is typical of pistons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 The Bolts movement is only because it attached to the Bolt Carrier ( via Cam Pin linkage ) , both turning or rearward movement . It has no propelling action at all , its attached to the only component that has direct movement through the burnt propellent gas pressure , the Bolt carrier . I'l agree its not a conventional Piston process as we have been known to see on Piston driven motion machines . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 The Bolts movement is only because it attached to the Bolt Carrier ( via Cam Pin linkage ) , both turning or rearward movement . It has no propelling action at all , its attached to the only component that has direct movement through the burnt propellent gas pressure , the Bolt carrier . I'l agree its not a conventional Piston process as we have been known to see on Piston driven motion machines .The bolt also has relative linear motion, even when it's not moving with the carrier. It's not true to say it doesn't move, there's only one specific time in the whole cycle that it isn't moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 I didn't say it didn't move , I said the Bolt Carrier pulls it via the Cam Pin linkage & forces the bolt to twist with the Cam Pin path in the Bolt Carrier . the Bolt is never moving on its own with propellent gas pressure , the Bolt carrier is the active component with propellent gases . With out the Bolt carrier being forced back with gas pressure . that bolt stays put, locked into loaded & locked breech, position . A crank shaft or fly wheel doesn't move on its own , it takes a piston to rotate it , if the piston is not moving , the crank or fly wheel sure isn't moving . If you or others are calling a linkage with gas sealing rings , a Piston then you are saying a Crank shaft or fly wheel is a Piston also . They are both connected to a Piston via a linkage of sorts , the Cam Pin is a sort of linkage . I'm trying to get the last word in a never ending debate , Matt . LOL LOL LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 I'm trying to get the last word in a never ending debate , Matt . LOL LOL LOLMy bad brother, I knew you were right all along anyhow. Anyway, go ahead with the last word and I'll lock the topic so no one argues with you. :P ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 LOL you win ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 Where's the lock icon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmackc Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) There is another way to consider the bolts relative motion. Gas energy force pushes against the BCG body and expands the space between bolt and the rear of the BCG. This force would surround the bolt and cause there to be neutral pressure on the bolt and it would move rearward with the same velocity as the BCG except for the sealing rings on the bolt which causes the bolt and the BCG to seperate enabeling the camming action to rotate and unlock the bolt there must be relative unequal velocity the bolt must remain stationary,which it will anyway because it is locked to the chamber, the camming action must happen or the bolt would remain locked. The main purpose of the seal rings are to lessen the stress on the bolt lugs and notches of the barrel extension until chamber pressure is at a safe level. Edited September 14, 2015 by mrmackc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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