what will happen to our trusts?

[Magwa]

     I would like to have a open discussion on what the new rules will be for trusts if Obama gets his way obviously his people know nothing about trusts so it seems to be the blind leading the blind. There is NO loophole for legal trusts that are used in the way they were designed. So he is saying you can buy SBR's sawed off shotguns and machine guns with NO back round check. HOW FOOKING STOOPID IS THIS? each and every gun or suppressor or whatever is held by the class three dealer until your paperwork comes back approved by the BATF  AND then you have to fill out a 4473 and that check is done so..... you have been checked twice and one of them is by the BATF. so the loophole myth is BUSTED.

  Now all the above is when it is done lawfully now could someone have a trust and purchase weapons and then let some insane idiot use them? the answer is yes but at that point they (the trustee) would become a criminal.. and then the laws do not matter so..... am i right here or am I wrong?

  Now the Trustee for a trust is the responsible party it is unlawful to let anyone who is not qualified to use or handle the weapons and it can not be passed down in the event of your death to any one who is not qualified so WHERE THE F--K IS THE LOOPHOLE?

 

 

 

[shepp]

That's what I don't get either this fucking idiot has no clue how to buy a weapon. he's never bought one and he's obviously done ZERO research on how the process works and these idiots keep spewing nonsense and the lemmings just keep eatting it up. 

 

Ghost guns with no serial numbers that shoot 300 rounds a second, buttons that you push that make your ar15 shoot full auto (mine just makes my mag fall out?!?! I think it's broke) internet sites that you can buy guys off with no back ground checks and have the gun shipped to you the next day?! Do these uneducated idiots do any research at all?!? Because they sound so stupid......

 

[jtallen83]

That's what I don't get either this fucking idiot has no clue how to buy a weapon. he's never bought one and he's obviously done ZERO research on how the process works and these idiots keep spewing nonsense and the lemmings just keep eatting it up. 

 

They have done a ton of research, they know exactly what and how many lies people will buy. The facts don't matter, what matters is what they can convince people the truth is. Edward laid it out years ago;

 

[slugger43]

 Now all the above is when it is done lawfully now could someone have a trust and purchase weapons and then let some insane idiot use them? the answer is yes but at that point they (the trustee) would become a criminal.. and then the laws do not matter so..... am i right here or am I wrong?

I'd like a discussion also, but I think you just covered everything.  There is no loophole!  You are exactly correct.  They are liars, scam artists, stupid, etc. Case closed!

Ghost guns with no serial numbers that shoot 300 rounds a second, buttons that you push that make your ar15 shoot full auto (mine just makes my mag fall out?!?! I think it's broke) internet sites that you can buy guys off with no back ground checks and have the gun shipped to you the next day?! Do these uneducated idiots do any research at all?!? Because they sound so stupid......

 

Sonofabeeeech!  It's not just me!  I went through a ton of work to do my "ghost gun"(s).  Can't seem to get any one of them up to 300 RPS.  And I thought maybe my lack of a magic bullet button was the problem...., but you say adding one didn't help.  Guess I won't try to install one, then.  Hahahahahaha!

My ghosts will remain invisible.  I have another in process.  I pray the possibility that I will build more is pissssing somebody off, and keeping them up nights.

[MikedaddyH]

This is making it harder to pass my guns to my children. The whole Trust platform is under attack because the current administration agenda is to take away guns in a long term time frame. NFA items are hard to get and very time consuming and paperwork is a PITA. 

Zero ,None ,NO legal automatic weapons have been used in crimes in america since the NFA Act was made law !

[planeflyer21]

Politicians can blather all they want.  How trusts work will not change.

Back in (help me out old dudes) something like 1974, congress subpoenaed David Rockefeller (you know, the guy that donated Camp David?) wanting to know about his family trust.  The amount of taxes paid by this person worth billions of dollars is less than most middle-class Americans.

Oh the feigned outrage!  How was this possible?!  This is going to change and congres will make him pay!!  How is Rockefeller's income safe from the IRS?! Because of the trust.  The trust made the income, the trust supports the properties, the trust supports Rockefeller.  The issue quietly disappeared.

Just like the issue came up again recently with Warren Buffet, stating that he paid less taxes than his secretary.  What an outrage!  Look!  Miley Cirus is still a slut!  Nothing changed.

The government will not fundamentally change the way their donors manage their own money and possessions.  Obama says he's gonna piss in your Wheaties in the outhouse, when you're up in the kitchen eating bacon and eggs.

If you truly believe legal binding trusts can be fundamentally altered on a whim, you'd better vote Trump.

[Magwa]

Ok so.,,,,,,, if he enacts a E.O that says all trustees must get pictures and leo. sign off that would effect the purpose of the trust which for me is not about buying weapons but keeping my collection together to pass as a whole to my qualified heirs, now they are talking some one must be qualified to hold the trust in probate... NO not going to happen that is the main reason for the trust to avoid any heirs from trying to get it in probate!!! I will leave my trust to whom I want as long as they are legal to own it!

[MikedaddyH]

Here is a good article on legally owning a machine gun and trusts.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/2014/05/21/machine-gun-legal-practical-guide-full-auto/

Edited January 10, 2016 by MikedaddyH
autocorrect-sucks...Sorry

[Magwa]

linky no worky....

[shepp]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/21/machine-guns-legal-practical-guide-full-auto/

 

try that hat one I think that's the same article 

[MikedaddyH]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/21/machine-guns-legal-practical-guide-full-auto/

 

try that hat one I think that's the same article 

thanks, auto correct kept f-ing it up.

[MikedaddyH]

Another article :

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/11/atf-approves-post-86-machine-gun-form-1/

[Madhouse]

..... if he enacts a E.O that says all trustees must get pictures and leo. sign off that ....

I understood that there was not CLEO signoff needed, just that you need to notify CLEO with documentation.  It would actually make it possible in areas (like here) that have CLEO's who refuse stamps, to get NFA items outside of a trust.

 

I may be wrong on this...??

 

 

[Magwa]

Well ATF 41P was published last friday and will go into effect in July so if you want something better get to it ...

[392heminut]

Okay, I've read several online posts from lawyers about 41P (now 41F) and what it boils down to is that after the 180 day grace period ends (which will be July 13th I believe) if you apply for a stamp under a trust all responsible parties (those on the trust who have access to trust items, NOT beneficiaries) will have to submit prints and photos with the stamp application and send a notification to their local CLEO. Once that application is approved then for the next 24 months nothing needs to be submitted on any stamp applications unless trustees are added to the trust, in which case those added will have to submit prints and photos and CLEO notification. After 24 months you are back to square one on your next stamp application. To recap;

You do not have to have CLEO sign off.

Beneficiaries do not have to submit prints and photos, only those on the trust who are responsible parties.

Here's a pretty good page from a gun trust attorney on how it works;

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_14531452920469&key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&libId=ijkd6dsl010004m6000DA69yisttt&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fsdtacticalarms.boards.net%2Fthread%2F356%2Fused-trust-kentucky&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wildcattrust.com%2F%3Fpage_id%3D322&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fsdtacticalarms.boards.net%2Fboard%2F6%2Fgun-trust&title=I used this trust. From Kentucky | SD Tactical Arms&txt=www.wildcattrust.com%2F%3Fpage_id%3D322

[Magwa]

fornicate them I am tired of this crap I am sending a bill to the white house due upon arrival for my trust and all associated Lawyer costs they have rendered it useless as far as i am concerned it is NOT what I paid for !!! I want my money back!

[Magwa]

Example under new rules cousin joe comes out for a visit you write him into the trust he is a law abiding citizen  and can own NFA items but he is only visiting for 4 days so how the F--K you supposed to have his photo and prints on the trust? NO this is a can of worms just like everything else coming out of Obama's Office and his screwed up ideas on Guns and the second....!

 

[NTXshooter]

Here is a pretty good explanation of 41P.  This is from the guys at The Silencer Shop:

ATF 41F Was Published Today

• Home American Suppressor Association ATF 41F Was Published Today

• VIEW ALL
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Thanks. Just a comment. This is the first suppressor I’ve ordered from you guys, I already own 6 various units, and I’ve got to say I really like the way y’all do things over there. So much so, I have two more in my cart right now that I plan on ordering today. Just wanted [...]"

It’s been a long couple of years with the fight against ATF 41P; but, as most people now know, the rule was finalized – and got published in the Federal Register this morning (1/15/2016).

ATF 41F will bring many new changes to how this industry works, but here are the main things to keep in mind:

The New Rule Will Go Into Effect On July 13, 2016

All applications that have been either approved, or are in process on 7/13/2016 will be processed under the existing rules; so, we’ll be pushing hard as we get close to that date to ensure everything gets to the NFA Branch before the change happens.

CLEO Certification Will No Longer Be Required

Once the new rule goes into effect, CLEO certification will no longer be required for anybody – including individual applications.

Most people prefer using a trust or corporation to register; but, for anybody registering as an individual it may make sense to wait to submit paperwork until AFTER 7/13/2016.

A New Form 5320.23 Will Be Required For All Responsible Persons

When registering using a trust or corporation, a new Form 5320.23 will be required for EVERY RESPONSIBLE PERSON.  This form will be sent to the NFA Branch as well as to your CLEO with each silencer purchase.

Note that this form will also require a recent passport photo – taken within the preceding 1 year.

As a side note, I suspect we’ll still be talking about what a responsible person is 5 years from now…

We’re already working to ensure this new paperwork will be as simple as possible for our customers.

Fingerprints Will Be Required For Suppressors & Other NFA Purchases Using Trusts Or Corporations

This is definitely going to be the biggest problem for the industry & customers.  As with individual applications, trusts & corporations will now require 2 physical fingerprint cards for every responsible person.

There Will Be A 2-Year Exemption After An Approval

It’s not 100% clear how this will work yet, but we’re sitting down with the ATF to get more details next week.

The way we’re reading the ATF 41F ruling appears to indicate that you won’t need to provide fingerprint cards or a 5320.23 with photos – or even a copy of your trust, if you’ve had any approval within the preceding 2 year period and your trust hasn’t changed.

It will be interesting to see if these applications get fast-tracked by the NFA Branch in some way…

If You Register Using A Trust Or Corporation, You Will NOT Be Required To Notify The NFA Branch Of Changes After An Approval

In the initial ATF 41P proposal, there was a requirement to notify the NFA Branch with a Form 5320.23 every time your responsible persons changed.

Fortunately, the requirement was removed – and there is specifically no requirement to notify the NFA Branch if you add or remove responsible persons after getting an approval.

Conclusion

We’re still working to both understand the implications of this new rule change, as well as to lessen the impacts if possible.  The next step is a sit down meeting with the ATF and the American Suppressor Association – so we’ll see what new information comes from that.

We truly appreciate everybody who has stepped up and submitted comments on behalf of our industry, as well as those who have supported the American Suppressor Association in their fight to lessen the effects of this executive action.

The NFA community is growing, and I suspect politicians won’t be able to ignore us much longer if we continue to band together.

177

[392heminut]

Example under new rules cousin joe comes out for a visit you write him into the trust he is a law abiding citizen  and can own NFA items but he is only visiting for 4 days so how the F--K you supposed to have his photo and prints on the trust? NO this is a can of worms just like everything else coming out of Obama's Office and his screwed up ideas on Guns and the second....!

 

I don't know why you would want to put him on the trust for 4 days but that isn't a problem. The only time prints and photos have to be submitted is when a stamp is applied for and only those responsible persons on the trust at the time of the application have to submit them. It was pointed out on another forum that the head of the trust could actually remove ALL the trustees from the trust just before applying for a stamp and only submit prints and photo of himself and then add the trustees back on the trust after receiving the stamp. The attorney from Wildcattrust.com confirmed that it would be legal to do this but also that the removed trustees would not have legal access to any other items on the trust until they were added back on.

[Magwa]

Ok so if that is true then what does this new 41F accomplish? if the aim is to keep weapons from the wrong hands which is stoopid in the first place since almost no crimes are committed with NFA items sorry but it makes no sense to me at all except to hassle law abiding people.

 

  If you do not put him on the trust for the 4 days he is there he can not use the NFA items no one can that is not on the trust that is one of the great things about it you can add and subtract qualified people when you want to...

Edited January 20, 2016 by Magwa

[EasyEJL]

Ok so if that is true then what does this new 41F accomplish? if the aim is to keep weapons from the wrong hands which is stoopid in the first place since almost no crimes are committed with NFA items sorry but it makes no sense to me at all except to hassle law abiding people.

 

  If you do not put him on the trust for the 4 days he is there he can not use the NFA items no one can that is not on the trust that is one of the great things about it you can add and subtract qualified people when you want to...

thing is, how likely am I to not go to the range with my cousin anyhow if he's visiting for 4 days? :)

I don't know why you would want to put him on the trust for 4 days but that isn't a problem. The only time prints and photos have to be submitted is when a stamp is applied for and only those responsible persons on the trust at the time of the application have to submit them. It was pointed out on another forum that the head of the trust could actually remove ALL the trustees from the trust just before applying for a stamp and only submit prints and photo of himself and then add the trustees back on the trust after receiving the stamp. The attorney from Wildcattrust.com confirmed that it would be legal to do this but also that the removed trustees would not have legal access to any other items on the trust until they were added back on.

The only thing that makes worse is that if your trustees haven't changed in the last 2 years since a stamp was approved, you didn't need new prints. doing that sort of thing would require new prints from you every time.

[planeflyer21]

Already being challenged:

http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/266289-obamas-gun-orders-hit-with-first-lawsuit

And the filing itself:

http://www.freedomwatchusa.org/pdf/160119-ComplaintasFiledExecutiveActionGunControl.pdf

 

[392heminut]

 

  If you do not put him on the trust for the 4 days he is there he can not use the NFA items no one can that is not on the trust that is one of the great things about it you can add and subtract qualified people when you want to...

Not true! Anyone that is legal to handle firearms can use your NFA items as long as you are there with them. You are still considered in control of the item as long as you're present. Also, there is nothing in 41F that keeps you from adding someone onto your trust for a period of time and then removing them, that hasn't changed. You don't have to have cousin Joe's prints and photo on the trust, you don't have to have ANYONE'S prints and photos on the trust. The prints and photos go to the ATF with the Form 1 or Form 4 to be used for a background check, and not for anything else. They do not stay with the trust.

Edited January 21, 2016 by 392heminut

[EasyEJL]

 

Not true! Anyone that is legal to handle firearms can use your NFA items as long as you are there with them. You are still considered in control of the item as long as you're present.

what I've always wondered is - if nobody on the trust is with me, what do I do if I have to go use the toilet?

[392heminut]

Take your stuff with you and lay it on the back of the toilet while you're doing your thing!