RRA LAR-8, just an FYI

[RayGun19]

I don't know if any of you will care or not (and I'm posting it in the general category so that the populous can see it) but I just had my friendly local firearms dealer send back the LAR-8 I've been waiting on for 5 months.  It was, after 5 months of waiting, wrong.  I had asked for a specific modification, and they failed.  Just one, not 9.  One, simple modification (that I really just thought would be easier if it was done during assembly, rather than get it, take it apart, and to the mod).  All I wanted them to do was to take a full length barrel and hand guard upper, and shorten the barrel to 16" and screw on the birdcage.  After my local shop owner asking them directly at the SHOT Show IN PERSON, and then two more telephone calls directly to them from the shop, they kept saying no problem.

Enter the crux.  I also ordered an M4 variant from them.  In the same fashion.  The answer there was NO.  Which perplexed both the shop and myself.  It's basically the same parts.  So why one, and not the other?  We could get no straight answer to that.  In the end with the M4, it was ordered as a separate upper and lower.  The upper being ordered as a full length model.  No problem there.  Place the order.  Check for a 4th time that RRA was SURE the LAR-8 could be ordered that way, and not the A4.  Yep, no problem was the answer.

So, how did my rifle come you ask?  Full length STOCK and mid-length HAND GUARDS.  Ok, no problem, right?  The upper is an "off the shelf item", and I was having the shop add a Magpul UBR stock anyway to the back end.  NO.  The uppers are serialized to the lower (according to RRA) and can't be separated.  Ok, ship the whole thing back. "when can we have it back with the different barrel and hand guard?"  "4-6 weeks."

Now, I live in Illinois.  Outside Chicago.  So shipping, even if it could go ground, is the same day.  I'd say a week on the outside to swap the barrel and hand guard (just to be nice) and I should have had it back.  NO.  4-6 weeks!!!!!  I told the shop to tell them to keep it, and order me an AR-10A4 (full length everything this time just to make sure) from Armalite.  Same price, and on the shelf, and also in Illinois.  At this point, I don't even care if Armalite takes 4 weeks to ship it to me.  The principle of the matter, after asking a total of 4 (FOUR) times if they could build what I wanted at the factory vs. just ordering it full length and having my shop do it for $85 is the reason I've made that choice.  Had they just said no from the beginning (or at any point during the build before the upper was done so we could change it), I would have my rifle, and would have attended the Practical Rifle match last weekend at ASC.

I think Customer Service should be the first thing any company takes pride in.  Especially in this economy, and when you have a customer willing to lay down $1200+ in hard earned cash, and willing to pay extra for mods.

I'm not pissed, and I'm not bad mouthing RRA.  Just letting you guys know my experience, and that what you may think is a straight answer isn't always.

Also, Mandi at the Gun Doctor in Roselle is AWESOME. She's been patient with all of this, given me straight answers, checked 4 times on my order to make sure everything was a GO, and has the best customer service of any shop I've been in here in Illinois since moving here in 2002.  They'll always get my business, and their experience Armorers are TOP NOTCH.

[sellmarkguy]

You did the right thing, IMO.

[sellmarkguy]

I think RRA is so deep into their Gov't contracts that their civie concerns may very well

have fallen by the wayside. The whole 'We dont need you; we have our bread and butter contract' attitude.

I owned to RRA LAR-8s and promptly sold them both. Good guns, just preferred DPMS

instead.

[edgecrusher]

slightly off subject, very similar experience from smith and wesson

[RayGun19]

So, an update.  It turns out that the reason they couldn't provide the correct hand guards on on a 16" barrel is they didn't have a low profile gas block.  But in the end, the gas block has to stay mid length with a 16" barrel for proper gas pressure.  So the mid-length would work fine with just a change in the gas block, and then remounting the front sight/gas block forward for use with the full length hand guards.

Next, Armalite has a 90 day wait on getting an AR10.  So, I can either go the Summer without any rifle, or modify the LAR-8 and run it for the Summer and order an AR10 in the mean time and sell the LAR-8 after the AR10 come in.  UGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[Robocop1051]

I think survivalshop and Jgun both built 16" barrels with rifle length gas block. They look SEXY.

[RayGun19]

I had opportunity to shoot another operators rifle that was set up like that.  I liked the idea that the sight radius was the same as what the platform was designed for.  And when I got out from under my FN, I decided to build one like that in 7.62.

I did some checking, and building an off the shelf AR10 carbine into a full length hand guard model would be a bit tough, as they step the barrel from just in front of the existing gas block to just behind the flash hider.  So replacing the existing gas block with a low profile one, and then moving the front sight post forward would be a bit hard.  UGH!  Oh well.  I'm going to modify the RRA unit that I have, and shoot it at some Practical Rifle matches this Summer and see if I like it.  If not, I can always sell it and have a rifle built by someone else.

I hate that this is more work that it was supposed to be.  Had I realized that you had to run a low profile gas block at the mid-length point with a 16" barrel in order to maintain proper gas pressure, I more than likely would have just had an entire rifle built rather than trying to modify something off the shelf.  Live and learn.  ::)

[Robocop1051]

Had I realized that you had to run a low profile gas block at the mid-length point with a 16" barrel in order to maintain proper gas pressure...

Is this an RRA issue? Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong. I'm pretty sure survivalshop and Jgun are running their rifles without any function issues.

There is sooo much gas in a 7.62, and not a lot of pressure is needed to function the action. If a 16" barrel with a rifle length gas block is your fancy, I encourage you to pursue that. It may not be a factory option, but a custom barrel is only $300 out of reach!

I'm ordering an ABS/Rock carbon barrel with the same dimensions. I wouldn't be wasting $1k on a barrel if I didn't think it would function.

[RayGun19]

No, it's not a RRA issue, more of an issue with them telling me one thing, and delivering another, and then telling me it was 4-6 weeks more to have it corrected.

I was under the impression that you had to have so-many inches of barrel in front of any gas block in order for the rifle to function properly.  As per the M4's that are rifle length hand guards with 16" barrels.  They all have a mid or short length, low profile gas block under the hand guards.  I guess I just figured the same would apply to any caliber, as the design was the same.  Wrong?

[Robocop1051]

A semi good example here.

Ever see a slow motion video a a bullet leaving th barrel. Notice how as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel, fire and gas expand passed the bullet. Eventually the gasses slow down and the bullet escapes the cloud of smoke.

There is so much gas in a .308/7.62, and it travels so fast, that the 2" of barrel after the gas block is just enough to cycle. The .223/5.56 doesn't produce the same burn/gas.

I'm guessing that length of burn has some influence as well. A 223/556 does a complete burn before it reaches the rifle length gas block. That means that while the gas is still expanding, no additional gas is being produced after a certain point. A 308/762 finishes it's burn beyond a rifle length gas block, up to 15.5". That still puts burning fuel in the gas block as the bullet passes. This is also why the 14.5" 223/556 barrel with a mid length gas system is so popular right now.

Did any of this make sense? I work graveshift, and I just woke up. I'm sure there are guys smarter than me here, and they can explain it better.

[RayGun19]

No no.  All of that makes perfect sense.  I'm a fabricator now, and a bit of an engineer.  I guess my deductions were from looking at how the full length and mid-length gas systems of the 7.62 rifles were put together.  And the ratio of barrel length to gas block position just pointed me to my conclusion.

What you say also makes sense.  I had assumed that the bullet needed to still be in the barrel in order to generate gas pressure in the barrel and gas system vs. the sudden decrease in the back pressure once the bullet cleared the muzzle. Hence my reasoning that there needed to be a certain length of barrel after the gas block.

I'm no gunsmith.  I guess I figured I had better have the gas system in place just as it would be on any 16" barrel 7.62 rifle for operation, as the only reason I want the front sight post to be at rifle length was for sight radius.

I do have to use a Heavy Buffer in this rifle with the Magpul UBR stock.  And I had wondered if the gas block was at rifle length position, but the barrel was only 16", if that would reduce felt recoil, and therefore no require the Heavy Buffer?????

[cockednlocked]

RRA still has a lot of work to do on their 7.62 platform IMO...

[RayGun19]

The issue is all on them now.  We sent the LAR-8 back, and I have an AR10A4C that should be here maybe Friday or Tuesday (the shop isn't open on Monday).  A low profile gas block will replace the current A4 rail block at the carbine length system location.  I just need to figure out how to get a .625 bore gas block on the reduced barrel area now.  I don't have the rifle yet, but it looks like there is a larger diameter just behind the bird cage.  I suppose this could be turned down, add the .625 rail gas block, then thread the barrel another 1/4", face the barrel a 1/4", and then install the new AAC muzzle brake with some Rock Set so it's permanent (which should satisfy any legal types having an issue with a 15.750" barrel.

[survivalshop]

I'm trying to follow you on this gas block dia. thing .

If the barrel takes a .625 dia ,bore , gas block ( Not sure I've seen one that small for a .30 cal ) but if the barrel is set up for that .625 gas block , it has to go over the barrel to go on there , of course with out any muzzle device attached .

All this talk about gas length , the gas hole dia has a lot to do with it also & as said the .308 has a lot of power & pressure  to play with.

Fulton Armory would not sell rifles made to the 16" rifle length gas system ,if it didn't work , those people pretty much know what they are doing with .30 cal. rifles .IMO

[RayGun19]

I asked Armalite guy, and he says the Carbine is the way to go. I'm not sure how Fulton does it, but I'm sure it works.

The barrel has a .750 diameter under the gas block, and then VISIBLY necks down to a smaller diameter from there to the muzzle device.  When I have it in hand, I'll mic it and tell you guys what the diameter is.  I'm sure they necked it down to lower the rifles weight at the front end.  The front "gas block" will just be a dummy, and just mount the hand guard.  It'll be easier when I post photographs.  If you look at a Bushmaster "Dissipator" with the hand guards off, you'll see what I'm doing.

[BLACKTIP]

I never, NEVER order any gun new from the manufacturer. I always buy nice, used guns from many places

and if they need "remodeling" I usually do it myself or when necessary have it done locally. I rarely find new weapons that I want at the price I want or in the configuration I like so used and self modified is the way to go.

I've heard too many stories about mistakes, hassles, etc. and the one time I ordered a pistol (10 years ago) it was wrong.

[RayGun19]

I looked around for an AR10-type rifle.  None of the shops around here had one used, and Illinois can be a bitch.  So I ordered the cheapest one (meaning that had stuff I was going to just take off and replace anyway) that had the configuration closest to what I wanted to end up with.  Trust me, if money wasn't an object, I would have just built what I wanted from the receiver up.  Which I might still do, and then sell this one. It would just take longer.

[Jgun]

Raygun,

Just saw this and thought I'd clarify. My 7.62 Mega rifle actually has a Noveske 14.5" Afghan barrel with carbine gas system . As Robocop stated, I've had no function problems with it. When I started contacting barrel makers about haveing a barrel made for my Kaiser build. I was thinking about a 16" rifle gas system barrel. Without exception, all of the barrel guys told me that it was a bad idea and that the gun might not cycle reliably. I didn't want to go to the trouble of building a complete gun only to find that it was very ammo sensitive and that I could only get it to function reliably with certain specific ammo. So I went with the 18" rifle length gas system. Since completing my gun I have had the opportunity to discuss this matter with survivalshop, who does indeed have the Fulton 16" rifle gas system barrel on one of his guns. He told me that he has had no cycling issues related to the barrel length/gas system length. So I can only guess that the information that I had been given as fact was actually more a matter of personal  preferance. I think the 16" rifle gas system is a pretty neat looking set up.  If you don't mind me addressing your idea of putting a low pro GB on your gun and moving the existing frontsight/Gas block forward to be just used as a front sight (if I'm understanding correctly), can you tell me how the front sight/gas block is secured to the barrel? If your only going to use it as a sight when you move it forward, wouldn't it be possible to make a sleeve that would make up the difference between the gas block pad dia (where it is now) and the smaller dia of the barrel further forward? In that way you would be able to have the extended sight radius you want while keeping the existing gas system?

[RayGun19]

It'll be pinned in the usual fashion.  Or are you talking about the hand guard adapter?  If so, it'll be a fixed to the front sight/gas block with a screw.  We'll thread the gas tube hole.  Then it's just a matter of installing the hand guards.

After all the advice from different sources, I just went with the carbine. I'll post some pics of it when it's done.

I've been looking at the wifes Redi-Mag, and I think I'm going to fabricate one for my AR10 and see how I like it.  It might be too heavy.  But then again, 40 rnds of 7.62 probably isn't far from 60 rnds of 5.56.  And in a combat rifle match, it might come in handy.

[Jgun]

I haven't got a lot of experience with this(yet), but I've been pretty happy, weight wise with the 48 rd Lancer mags for the AR-15's, or the Nordic Pmag extensions that do the same thing. I haven't ever used the Redi mag. It seems like a good idea, but I'm very weight conscious of my gun when moving around. I bought one of those 32 rd .308 mags from Highercapacity.com, and I have to tell you that I really notice the difference between that and a 20rd mag when swinging my .308 AR around. I think I might have to bulk up if i wanted to shoot it with 40 rds physically attached to the gun when the stage starts. I don't seem to notice the weight of the mags on my belt as much. Of course, having the mag right next to the well has to speed up the mag change.