New AR lower

[Jgun]

I don't know if this is the ideal place to post this, but I wanted to get input from the shooters here that have taken tactical courses with AR's vs asking the guys that are shooting the tactical matches. I see that Rainier is showing this new AR lower with the mag release that also actuates the bolt catch, supposedly to speed up clearing jams. Anyone care to offer any opinions on the value of it vs the BAD lever, or can you think of any drawbacks to the combined functions of the mag release?

                                http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2412

[Madhouse]

I get what they're doing, but at first glance it seems like they're trying to solve a problem that isn't really all that obtrusive of an issue.

I watched the video, rewound it a few times, then went and pulled my RRA from the safe to try something.  Then I came back and watched the video again (and rewound again).

This is just my take on it, but I don't really agree with him about having to reposition both hands, but I'm not using a forward vertical grip like he does.  As a right-handed shooter I tend to hold my left hand at the rifle's weight center point, right in front of the magwell (especially on my 10" RRA).  I also use a Badger Ordnance tactical charging handle on most of my AR's.  Without moving my left hand at all I reach my thumb over to the bolt catch, take my right hand and hovering over the upper I charge the rifle using the inside of my index finger.  I never take my muzzle off target.  The only thing I see that ADAC saves me is dropping the mag free and locking the bolt in one action, which saves me what, half a second?

Like I said, I see what they're doing, but IMHO I don't seeing it being all that valuable.

Just my $0.02...  I'm very interested to hear from others on this.

<dontknow>

[Madhouse]

And btw Jgun, this is a perfect place to put this thread.

<thumbsup>

[98Z5V]

I've been watching this since RA announced it over on ARFCOM a little while ago.  The main advantage to this (and what will save steps in the Manual of Arms) is that it activates the bolt catch everytime you hit the mag release button.

This will only help you clear malfunctions that would require you to drop the magazine first - that's the only place it saves steps in the process (double feed, bolt over, etc.).

*Hold the mag release in with your right index finger while you charge the weapon with your left hand.  That accomplishes: dropping the magazine, charging the weapon, locking the bolt to the rear; all finished in that motion.

IMHO, if you're looking at reducing steps in the Manual of Arms, the BAD Lever or Phase 5 EBR V2 will give you more for less.  <dontknow>

[Jgun]

When I first watched the video I went and got my gun equipped with the BAD and went through the drill. What I was thinking was that possibly in a high stress situation you might clear a jam faster with less hand movement. I'm figuring that it would be, hit mag release with right hand, mag drops,pull charging handle with left hand while still holding mag release button, reach for and insert mag, depress left side bolt release (unless you have a BAD on gun besides) and right hand back on trigger.  Now if you do the same thing with a gun equipped with the BAD it would be, hit mag release, shift right finger to push up on BAD while pulling charging handle with left hand. reach for and insert mag with left hand, push left on BAD lever and back on trigger with right hand. I don't see where the tandem function button would save much time, besides which if you train with a gun so equipped, your in trouble if you have to switch guns in a hurry and have to clear a jam in that gun. They make the point that the BAD can get snagged on things and that you have to put you finger in close proximity to the trigger to work the BAD, and the BAD does obstruct my left side mag release somewhat, but I think those possible drawbacks are outweighed by the ability to retro fit your guns with the BAD. I think that a new system that would require me to either get rid of all my current guns , or practice two different procedures in order to be able to work my old and new guns might not be ideal for me.

[Madhouse]

I shared the video and my opion with my chief instructor and here is his response.

It looks like a solution in search of a problem. 

There is an old saying that originated with "Watergate", - - if you have trouble figuring it out, - - - "follow the money".  Something new to sell to the military and cops.

Perhaps it has some merit if one is training a large number (an army) of  folks, new to shooting, and, who have no "built-in" skill sets relating to that weapon.

I'm like you, - -  I'd have to "un-train" and then, retrain for a situation that I already have under control. 

[Madhouse]

I was hoping more people would weigh in on this.

[98Z5V]

I know Madhouse, me too.  <dontknow>

Locking the bolt to the rear without removing the firing hand from firing position was revolutionary.  The BAD lever did that.  Some can argue that the Phase 5 was first to market, but it never would have gotten to market had MagPul not released videos of the BAD, then waiting almost a year to get it into the hands of consumers - Phase 5 filled that gap, and that immediate want.  It's the same function, but in a different way of execution of the product.

It seems now that more and more manufacturers are looking for complicated ways to incorporate what the levers do, directly into the lower.  The more complicated it gets, the more complicated it is to run, and the more training it takes to maintain proficiency on the platform.

I've been using the BAD lever since it was first available to the public - like the first day it went on sale.  I love it.  I haven't tried a Phase 5, because I don't have a need to, with BAD levers on all my ARs already - except for the .308 AR.  The Phase 5 will fill that role, but I haven't gotten around to picking one up yet.  Eventually.

Now, my new lower - the ARFCOM billet lower - it incorporates a bolt release lever directly above the mag release.  So does my Spike's billet lower.  I really didn't use it on my Spike's lower, because there's a BAD lever on it.  On the new one, I use it.  I like it.  It works great for releasing the bolt after a normal mag change.  The more I work this gun, the more I find myself using that same bolt release on the Spike's gun - and I like it.  I think my own shooting weaknesses will show as soon as I have a malfunction, and I'm reaching for the BAD lever in order to help clear the malfunction.  At that point, I'l figure out what I need to do, but it'll take more time to revert back "to the old way."

This piece advertised here - this lower - isn't really revolutionary.  It's incorporating  something "different" that will need to be trained for.  Personally, I can't see the benefit, considering all the other devices that are out there, which do more.

[Jgun]

The Lancer L-15 lower for my 300 has the same type of right side bolt release button as your ARF.COM and the POF lowers do. (it also has an extra large mag release that I really like.) I still haven't ordered the SD3G Trigger for this yet so have not had a chance to actually shoot the 300 with that lower, but I'm hoping that the BAD will fit so that I can have it set up like that the first time I try it. At this point I'm most comfortable with a gun that has the BAD and I'm not that quick to pick up new techniques (old dog new trick) that I really want to get used to using the right side bolt release button, especially since none of my other guns have it.

[RayGun19]

I love how behind the times I am with this stuff.  I just found this.  IMHO, I'd rather spend $30 on a B.A.D. from Magpul.  I'm right handed, primarily.  I'm sure I'm echoing what's already been said, but what if I don't want to drop my magazine to clear a malfunction?  The B.A.D. let's you do that and maintain fire control.  With this, you still have to change up hands.

Aside from that, I like that he's wearing Multicam in the video.  It lends weight to what he'd presenting.  <lmao>

[unforgiven]

So what I get from this thread, this is primarily for right handers? <dontknow>

[Robocop1051]

For an Ambi rifle... I'd prefer the billet ambi Mega with a Norgon button attached. The $300 price difference can't be justified.

[survivalshop]

The camo was the first thing that I noticed , why ?

The other thing is , you don't need to dump the mag all the time to clear jams . This is set up just for the timed matches & as said above ,most of us would have to de-train our self's to work the new system .

Sorry , I put this in "I'm an old dog & don't need a new trick  " category.