6.5 Grendel almost done

[Armed Eye Doc]

I told Matt that y'all spoiled me to match ammo.  I can tell the difference now.

[98Z5V]

8 minutes ago, Armed Eye Doc said:

I told Matt that y'all spoiled me to match ammo.  I can tell the difference now.

You can see the difference, downrange, at distance.  It shows up pretty clearly on the steel, once you get out and look at them.  The predictability is the greatest part. 

That's the whole reason I load my own, brother. 

[98Z5V]

With consistent ammo, the two biggest reasons to miss a target at distance on a flat range is:

#1.  Range Estimation - you gotta get that right, first...

#2.  Wind - gotta be able to call the wind, and either adjust for it or hold for it...

When you're not on a flat range, and shooting angles, it's all about the cosine - angle determination. Anything 5 degrees and under, you don't even calculate - it doesn't matter, it's so small.  Even up to 15 degrees, it's a very small difference, depending on the distance.  Out to 300 yards, 15 degrees, it almost doesn't matter unless the target is tiny.  That would be #3.  

Everything else is up to the loose nut behind the trigger...   

[willbird]

The wind is the the biggest factor IMHO :-)...esp when you get screwy stuff like a 600 yard shot where 300 is exposed to wind and 300 is not.

Riding a bicycle for miles and miles will give you a new respect and feeling for how terrain and even crops like corn influence the wind.

Bill

[98Z5V]

Range estimation is #1, Will. That's the biggest downfall of all distance shooters.  Wind is #2. You have to know how far away the target is, first, then you have to account for the wind at that distance. 

[Armed Eye Doc]

I've got the mount and some mags on order.  Now to decide on the scope.

[willbird]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:54 PM, 98Z5V said:

Range estimation is #1, Will. That's the biggest downfall of all distance shooters.  Wind is #2. You have to know how far away the target is, first, then you have to account for the wind at that distance. 

The range can be measured, the wind, and most esp when wind exposure changes between muzzle and target not so much. So for me wind will always be #1 for longer ranges.

Bill

[Matt.Cross]

9 hours ago, willbird said:

The range can be measured, the wind, and most esp when wind exposure changes between muzzle and target not so much. So for me wind will always be #1 for longer ranges.

Bill

Call me argumentative, but watching mirage with your parallax can give you an impressive amount of data on wind behavior, not to mention the ready availability of wind reading technologies that are parallel to rangefinding technology.

I would agree with distance being a more determinant factor overall. 10 mph 90° crosswinds are far more factorial at 850 yards than they are at 100.

[98Z5V]

 

 

1 hour ago, Matt.Cross said:

Call me argumentative, but watching mirage with your parallax can give you an impressive amount of data on wind behavior, not to mention the ready availability of wind reading technologies that are parallel to rangefinding technology.

I would agree with distance being a more determinant factor overall. 10 mph 90° crosswinds are far more factorial at 850 yards than they are at 100.

Yep. We had a complete separate training class on wind reading at the Fall Shoot, and I specifically discussed using your scope to determine wind at different distances between you and the target. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by 98Z5V

[willbird]

It is OK if we do not agree :-). Not sure what ya'al see where you live when it is "windy". it is 33F here this morning.

The wind is a mere 14 ESE today. I am doing some shop cleaning, will have to see if I can find my laser wind finder :-). They actually put on a nice class at Camp Perry that covers estimating wind values from the provided wind flags on the ranges. That is a nice open 1000 yard deep area however without anything to break the wind partway of the 1000 yards. 

 

 

Bill

Edited January 7, 2019 by willbird

[willbird]

Covering the same 20 miles probably 500 times with a 1/4hp motor pushing the bike against the wind really gives a different look into how different the same exact terrain can be as far as wind exposure on different days. 

Bill

[willbird]

Wanted to run some 224 val kilmer stuff anyway :-). So rough guess is that missing wind speed by 2.5 mph at 1300 yards is equiv to roughly 30 yards error in range measurement ?? That being a perfect wind over something like the Viale range at camp perry, known for it's high but steady predictable winds :-).

 

224 Valkrie 88 grain ELD zero 1300 yards

1300yards 10 mph wind 160.1” wind drift

1275 yards +28.2 POI 153” wind

1325 yards  -29.9 POI 167” wind

 

224 Valkrie 88 grain ELD zero 1300 yards

1300yards 12.5 mph wind 200” wind drift (40 inches more wind drift from 2.5 wind increase)

1275 yards +28.2 POI 191” wind

1325 yards minus 29.9 POI 209” wind

 

ran 15 mph wind, another 40” increase in drift from 10mph.

[Ravenworks]

I live close to Camp Perry.

That range is one of the toughest ranges because of the wind.

Lake Erie loves to play games.

With that,range flags and what not are all fine and dandy,what are you going to do in an uncontrolled environment?

[Matt.Cross]

1 hour ago, Ravenworks said:

I live close to Camp Perry.

That range is one of the toughest ranges because of the wind.

Lake Erie loves to play games.

With that,range flags and what not are all fine and dandy,what are you going to do in an uncontrolled environment?

 

Look at foliage, mirage, and the Kestrel, and your laser wind finder if you'll loan it out.

[Ravenworks]

1 hour ago, Matt.Cross said:

 

Look at foliage, mirage, and the Kestrel, and your laser wind finder if you'll loan it out.

I understand.

I guess what I was trying to say is Camp Perry is no walk in the park.

It is a notoriously tough course.

I guess I was also trying to say what you were.

The OP I quoted made it sound as if reading the conditions through a spotting scope or rifle scope were crazy.

[Armed Eye Doc]

Matt and 98Z5V gave a detailed course on long distance shooting, including range estimation and reading wind, using only your optics to tell you how to adjust your shot.  This was at the Fall Shoot in AZ.  There were no flags posted in the desert to tell us which way the wind was blowing.

The biggest thing you have to know is how your scope works.

@Matt.Cross, I did order the PA 4-14 with MOA reticle.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Armed Eye Doc
Edited again to add that I can edit it if I choose

[98Z5V]

9 hours ago, Armed Eye Doc said:

Matt and 98Z5V gave a detailed course on long distance shooting, including range estimation and reading wind, using only your optics to tell you how to adjust your shot.  This was at the Fall Shoot in AZ.  There were no flags posted in the desert to tell us which way the wind was blowing.

The biggest thing you have to know is how your scope works.

@Matt.Cross, I did order the PA 4-14 with MOA reticle.

I like that scope, Doc - alot.  If I liked MOA alot, I'd have a pile of them.  It's great.  Until they make that reticle illumination pattern in the mil scopes and the HUD DMR scopes, that one will certainly be the king of "great scope with GREAT illumination pattern."  Until then, I'll have to suck it up and keep using MEALS. 

Batteries die  - at the most inopportune time.  Technology- fails.  Even the illumination can go out in my scope, and it won't be as easy to shoot 450 yards, at night. 

But...  I can still do it.  I know how to accurately estimate range, at any distance, without a laser range finder.  I can do it with the graduations in my scope reticle, and the information that is stored in my brain, on target sizes.  The batteries can die in my Kestrel, and all the sudden, I have no weather data, no wind data, and no Applied Ballistics program to tell me what to click to - as soon as my laser range finder bluetooths it to my Kestrel.  They both have dead batteries now. 

But...  I can still determine wind direction, wind speed, and make the adjustments necessary to hit my target.  With my scope, and the information that is stored in my brain, on wind data.  I will have to reference my printed dope charts if the wind is above 12mph, though.  If I have to go off-angle to measure the wind speed, it's already above 12mph, and I'll need to look at my charts.  But I can still do it.

Does Camp Perry shoot an unknown distance course of fire?  I think every shooting program there is at known distances.  Get into an unknown distance situation, no laser range finder, and lay the smackdown on some targets.  That's exactly why the high angle shooting is so different. It's the same as flat shooting, you just add another perspective that you have to master, and one more things to memorize and run the math geometry on. 

Come on out, with no gadgets, and let's get it done.  

[Armed Eye Doc]

I am just starting to watch this video series.  I hope it will be a good resource. 

 

[98Z5V]

13 hours ago, Ravenworks said:

I live close to Camp Perry.

That range is one of the toughest ranges because of the wind.

Lake Erie loves to play games.

With that,range flags and what not are all fine and dandy,what are you going to do in an uncontrolled environment?

This is really what I'm talking about, right here.

You went a completely different direction, will, and I understand why now.

The isn't a challenge, call-out, anything like that - this is two different disciplines were talking about here.  You're the Camp Perry flat range shooter, all your distances are known, and you only have to worry about wind - and personal skills.  Camp Perry is the ULTIMATE TEST of personal skills, right there. I used to go to Camp Perry every summer, as a kid, for different reasons, and I've seen it in action. 

Once one puts themselves into an unknown distance arena, with no electronic technology - the world changes.  Great shooters suddenly suck.  Know why?  Range estimation takes a toll.  Wind calls might be there - but that doesn't matter if you don't know how far the target is.  Wind is secondary.  Range Estimation is primary.  If I can range my target, but suck at wind calls, I'll get close, then I can adjust - most of the time, in a wind that's under 10mph full value, I can "half-target" the shot and hit the target, at distances to 800 yards.  I just need to know if it's right-to-left, or left-to-right.  If I can't range my target, I won't even get close - it's just a guessing game.

Toss some elevation in there - and zero electronic aids - and the whole world goes upside down.  Everything gets crazy after 15 degrees of elevation.  It is literally exponential beyond that inclination. 

We're talking about completely different skills, from completely different perspectives.  I understand why now.

[98Z5V]

16 minutes ago, Armed Eye Doc said:

I am just starting to watch this video series.  I hope it will be a good resource. 

 

It's an EXCELLENT resource, brother.   There's a VALUABLE TON of information in Rex's vids.  They are fantastic.   

He's got some insane skills, too.  

Edited January 8, 2019 by 98Z5V

[willbird]

14 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

This is really what I'm talking about, right here.

You went a completely different direction, will, and I understand why now.

The isn't a challenge, call-out, anything like that - this is two different disciplines were talking about here.  You're the Camp Perry flat range shooter, all your distances are known, and you only have to worry about wind - and personal skills.  Camp Perry is the ULTIMATE TEST of personal skills, right there. I used to go to Camp Perry every summer, as a kid, for different reasons, and I've seen it in action. 

Once one puts themselves into an unknown distance arena, with no electronic technology - the world changes.  Great shooters suddenly suck.  Know why?  Range estimation takes a toll.  Wind calls might be there - but that doesn't matter if you don't know how far the target is.  Wind is secondary.  Range Estimation is primary.  If I can range my target, but suck at wind calls, I'll get close, then I can adjust - most of the time, in a wind that's under 10mph full value, I can "half-target" the shot and hit the target, at distances to 800 yards.  I just need to know if it's right-to-left, or left-to-right.  If I can't range my target, I won't even get close - it's just a guessing game.

Toss some elevation in there - and zero electronic aids - and the whole world goes upside down.  Everything gets crazy after 15 degrees of elevation.  It is literally exponential beyond that inclination. 

We're talking about completely different skills, from completely different perspectives.  I understand why now.

I'm more of a woodchuck hunter actually :-). The Camp Perry thing was in my formative years :-). Glad to have done it as well as more local 100 and 200 yard high power matches. But the wind REALLY blows here :-), so hard at times that I lose things I  left out in the yard. With woodchucks you get ONE shot...sometimes not even that if they feel your eyes on them :-).

So from the one shot perspective I stand pat on wind being very difficult to measure, and range measurement being something that was solved with the optical methods and improved on with modern tech. 80" POI difference between 10mph and 15mph wind is missing the target even if the target is a small car :-).

I'm a critical thinker, it is my stock and trade so may arrive at a different answer than others do....and so we just disagree :-). 

The best way to make things better is to find an accurate bullet with a very high BC, and push it as fast as possible :-). That flattens trajectory, reduces wind drift, and gets the bullet there faster as well :-).

Bill

 

[willbird]

The video on mirage is indeed excellent :-). Using Mirage for that reason, and to see the bullet "trace" through the mirage were covered in the small arms firing course class they give new shooters just starting out in High Power. Looking in different directions was not covered or if it was I have forgotten it :-).

 

Bill

[98Z5V]

6 hours ago, willbird said:

The best way to make things better is to find an accurate bullet with a very high BC, and push it as fast as possible :-). That flattens trajectory, reduces wind drift, and gets the bullet there faster as well :-).

Bill

 

Yep!  I completely agree.

4 hours ago, willbird said:

The video on mirage is indeed excellent :-). Using Mirage for that reason, and to see the bullet "trace" through the mirage were covered in the small arms firing course class they give new shooters just starting out in High Power. Looking in different directions was not covered or if it was I have forgotten it :-).

 

Bill

MIrage disappears at 12mph.   Your screen goes blank, figuratively.  That tells you that you have no wind, or your wind is above 12mph, and you know the difference between those two.  Move off-target by 45 degrees and try to read the mirage.  If you can read it at 45-off-target, multiply what you observed by 1.4.  If you cannot read it 45-off, try to read it 60 degrees off-target, and multiply what you observed by 2.0. 

Say it washes out on you, looking at the target.  It went to 12 or over.  Move off 45 degrees from target.  You're can't tell what you've got for mirage, so you move off-target to 60 degrees.  Lets say you observe a 7 or 8 mph wind at 60 degrees from target. Multiply that (split it to 7.5 for personal comfort) by 2.0.    You have a 15mph wind on-target that you need to hold for, or dial for.

If you got that 7~8 reading at 45 degrees, you'd multiply that by 1.4, which would have given you 10.5 mph on-target.  Sometimes this is very helpful, because it's tough to tell a 10mph wind on-target - it looks like flat mirage, it washes out and disappears and comes back as flat mirage... You don't have to wait for the mirage to disappear to use this technique. 

You can also use mirage to accurately determine wind direction.  It's WAY easier to use a spotting scope for this, but you can use your magnified optics on your rifle.  Start watching the mirage, and scanning (under a 12pmh wind).  Slowly move in a 90-degree arc and determine where the mirage goes straight up - that's your wind direction, either to your face or to your back, and it's pretty accurate. 

[unforgiven]

Great info brother?

[willbird]

16 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Yep!  I completely agree.

MIrage disappears at 12mph.   Your screen goes blank, figuratively.  That tells you that you have no wind, or your wind is above 12mph, and you know the difference between those two.  Move off-target by 45 degrees and try to read the mirage.  If you can read it at 45-off-target, multiply what you observed by 1.4.  If you cannot read it 45-off, try to read it 60 degrees off-target, and multiply what you observed by 2.0. 

Say it washes out on you, looking at the target.  It went to 12 or over.  Move off 45 degrees from target.  You're can't tell what you've got for mirage, so you move off-target to 60 degrees.  Lets say you observe a 7 or 8 mph wind at 60 degrees from target. Multiply that (split it to 7.5 for personal comfort) by 2.0.    You have a 15mph wind on-target that you need to hold for, or dial for.

If you got that 7~8 reading at 45 degrees, you'd multiply that by 1.4, which would have given you 10.5 mph on-target.  Sometimes this is very helpful, because it's tough to tell a 10mph wind on-target - it looks like flat mirage, it washes out and disappears and comes back as flat mirage... You don't have to wait for the mirage to disappear to use this technique. 

You can also use mirage to accurately determine wind direction.  It's WAY easier to use a spotting scope for this, but you can use your magnified optics on your rifle.  Start watching the mirage, and scanning (under a 12pmh wind).  Slowly move in a 90-degree arc and determine where the mirage goes straight up - that's your wind direction, either to your face or to your back, and it's pretty accurate. 

The "little or no wind" gives you the "boiling mirage". They used to say "lights up sights up"..which only apparently applies to post front iron sights. Interesting thread linked here

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-297230.html

But here is an exerpt, note that this was on a known distance range....the distance from muzzle to target never changed...they might be talking 1000 yards with Black Powder Target Rifles tho ;-).  Lots of rifle matches are "no sighters" type matches, every shot is for score.

Sort of chuckle when I think about last years bptr national match. The 1000 yd on Saturday, wind and mirage right to left,, took about 1 minute left to hold the 9 ring at 3... Fired an 8,9,10 and x sighters, went for score shot 2 10's and an x, wind gust came up blew all the shot spotters off the boards, about broke the frames , the tumble weeds were flying off the target berm.. targets down about 5 minutes, when they came back up conditions looked similar to prior to the big gust, but they weren't... never got another round on paper. Several other folks reported nearly identical results,,, Sometimes there's just no explaining what the conditions read out at.