Palmetto PA-10 failure to eject

[W.E.G.]

2 minutes ago, jtallen83 said:

I should have been clearer, referring to the extractor spring. On a couple occasions I have seen an Armalite extractor spring, same as the Fulton, fix an ejection issue. It would be a cheap and simple fix if it worked. If I remember correctly it was a double spring that was replaced.

Thank you for that suggestion. I may give that a try as opportunity presents.

[jtallen83]

1 minute ago, W.E.G. said:

Thank you for that suggestion. I may give that a try as opportunity presents.

Give a quality ejector spring a go as well, doubt PA uses top quality springs like Fulton does.

[Lane]

Can you try a .223 or 5.56 cartridge against the extractor; or compare an extractor from an AR-15? That still looks like the wrong component entirely. 

I had a much worse situation with an o-ring under compression; but for different reasons. That video I linked earlier talks about testing ejection with the bolt or BCG in your hand. Feeling it out is the way I test that kind of thing. Not sure what your goals are here; but you are well on your way no matter what.

[W.E.G.]

AR15 extractor is significantly smaller. I was going to post a pic, but they aren't even close in comparative size.

Edited March 15, 2019 by W.E.G.

[Lane]

Everyone else here has great experience and thoughts on this matter; I hope you don't regret fixing your gas tube. I neglected to mark the angles of the front and back of the ejector lips; but those are also very much suspect too. Hope this makes sense, or helps along the way. 

[98Z5V]

Looks like PSA is using a proprietary extractor, then, if it's indeed smaller?  That would mean they have a different bolt, as well.

Can your larger extractor (Fulton, that worked) actually fit in the PSA bolt?

[98Z5V]

That pic directly above, reposted by Lane, ...  

That top spring is significantly smaller in diameter than the Fulton spring, below it.  That O-ring is even smaller, ID. 

[Sisco]

It sounds like the Fulton is using the same system as Armalite with a spring and a synthetic spacer inside it. I would just pickup a Fulton bolt, put it in, and hopefully not have to mess with any thing for 5,000 rounds or so.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Sisco

[98Z5V]

1 minute ago, Sisco said:

It sounds like the Fulton is using the same system as Armalite with a spring and a synthetic spacer inside it. 

For many, many years, Fulton Armory went directly off the DPMS specs - DPMS even made their receivers.  They've changed over on their barrels, now, to the Armalite AR-10 spec on gas port length.  Fulton has never messed up gas port diameter, ever.  They nail it.  My original Fulton chromed BCG from 2010 has that same extractor setup in it.  It's always been flawless. 

[W.E.G.]

15 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Looks like PSA is using a proprietary extractor, then, if it's indeed smaller?  That would mean they have a different bolt, as well.

Can your larger extractor (Fulton, that worked) actually fit in the PSA bolt?

The diameter of each extractor at the axis pin is identical. I haven't actually cross-installed them to confirm that one can go in the other bolt. Rifles are locked up now, so will have to get around to that test another time.

I have a Fulton extractor and spring and extractor-buffer on order. Probably will see how that shakes out when the order arrives.

Edited March 15, 2019 by W.E.G.

[Lane]

26 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

That top spring is significantly smaller in diameter than the Fulton spring, below it.  That O-ring is even smaller, ID.

Thank you sir. I am pretty sure that will fix at least one of my builds around here. I didn't realize my spring was different in that case. I'll check everything I have once I'm ready to get dirty. Much appreciated as always.

[washguy]

Awesome work Weg !  glad you found out the culprit...you had that feeling bout it in the first place......way to go!     Wash

[W.E.G.]

Little bit of updated on the PA-10 project.

Cutting straight to the chase, note the difference in how much the tail-end of the extractor stands proud (or doesn't stand proud) of the Palmetto extractor vs. the Fulton extractor.

The two pics that follow show the relative stand-proudness of the two extractors when installed in the Palmetto bolt, but WITHOUT the extractor axis-pin installed.

 

PALMETTO (weak stand-proud)

 

 

FULTON (proud stand-proud)

 

[W.E.G.]

I think that pretty much seals the deal as far as the verdict on the Palmetto extractor spring being inadequate. The jury is still out on the issue of whether the claw of the extactor itself being 0.020" narrower than the Fulton claw as to inadequacy. I may get around to experimenting with the Fulton spring  and polymer insert with the narrow Palmetto claw. But, I'd prefer to have the wider claw, and let that just be that. Why have less claw when more is available? If I'm attacked by one of the really big squirrels, I don't want some nagging concern about having saved a few bucks on an extractor. It works "most of the time," right?

[W.E.G.]

When I was digging around in the AR-10 parts box today, I found this.

So, THIS is now installed in the Palmetto bolt.

[W.E.G.]

Here is what I removed from the Palmetto bolt.

[W.E.G.]

Here's a side-by-side comparison

[W.E.G.]

Probably range-trip Wednesday.

Expecting another Fulton Armory 15.5" gas tube to arrive tomorrow.

Plan is install the 15.5" tube in the original non-adjustable Palmetto gas block, and see how things function with the modified Palmetto bolt (Fulton extractor assembly added), versus the full Fulton bolt assembly.

I suspect this failure-to-extract issue is going to turn out to be all about the inadequate springs in the original Palmetto extractor.

I plan to keep the 15.5" gas tube installed in the gun no matter what. Again, why settle for an unnecessarily-short gas tube when a longer tube is available. The short tube should work "most of the time," right?

[W.E.G.]

Regarding the EJECTOR, I want to note that when the Palmetto bolt in its factory-configuration did actually eject brass, the brass landed in the same place that the Fulton bolt deposited it.

The Palmetto EJECTOR spring seems very strong, and seems comparable in strength to the Fulton bolt. I perceive no binding/roughness in the movement of the Palmetto ejector. I cannot depress it with my fingernail using my bare hand. I can only depress it using a tool, or using a cartridge casing levered under the lip of of the extractor.

[Robert@FULL30]

9 hours ago, W.E.G. said:

Regarding the EJECTOR, I want to note that when the Palmetto bolt in its factory-configuration did actually eject brass,

Bottom line is the spring then?

 

 

[W.E.G.]

From the look of it, the Palmetto extractor spring looks highly questionable.

The proof is always in performance.

Testing the Palmetto bolt with Fulton spring AND extractor Wednesday. 

Not planning on testing narrow-claw Palmetto extractor further if Fulton extractor and spring together run 100%.

[ARTrooper]

@98Z5V have we heard of this problem with PSA before?

[jtallen83]

I had a D Wilson bolt that was cured with a new Armalite plug and spring. There has to be other sellers of springs that are always good but I bought a large batch of Armalite branded springs on sale making them my go to.

[98Z5V]

5 hours ago, ARTrooper said:

@98Z5V have we heard of this problem with PSA before?

Nope, but this is excellent information.  

[W.E.G.]

I decided to take a look at the Palmetto website to see whether they might be selling PA-10 extractors separately.

Here's what I found (and note "NOT IN STOCK" as are many PA-10 individual parts):

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa-10-extractor-rebuil-kit.html

Only a single spring and double O-rings. Call me unimpressed.