Help please

[montanamac]

So like magic the AR 10 will run well without excessive lubrication AFTER you've shot it a lot.

Exactly what kind of round count do you consider "broken in"?

If a machine of any kind wont work well unless you lubricate it then the parts aren't fit together correctly.  Lubrication is designed to REDUCE wear on parts.  Braking in a rifle typically is a process of wearing parts in such a way as to make them fit together better.  So according to your logic,  lubricate the rifle so that the parts don't wear and then it will work better after the parts have worn to some degree.

If braking in is simply wearing the parts to some degree and lubrication reduces wear, then doesn't it make sense that if you shoot it without lubrication it would brake in quicker?

If you have to brake in the rifle with lubrication until it wears the parts to some degree, wouldn't that imply that the parts simply aren't sized correctly to begin with?

All I know is that I haven't lubricated my new Springfield Victor .308 since I bought it and I've had no malfunctions at all and I've put 450 rounds through it so far, I guess mine broke in with the first round.

[98Z5V]

52 minutes ago, montanamac said:

So like magic the AR 10 will run well without excessive lubrication AFTER you've shot it a lot.

Exactly what kind of round count do you consider "broken in"?

If a machine of any kind wont work well unless you lubricate it then the parts aren't fit together correctly.  Lubrication is designed to REDUCE wear on parts.  Braking in a rifle typically is a process of wearing parts in such a way as to make them fit together better.  So according to your logic,  lubricate the rifle so that the parts don't wear and then it will work better after the parts have worn to some degree.

If braking in is simply wearing the parts to some degree and lubrication reduces wear, then doesn't it make sense that if you shoot it without lubrication it would brake in quicker?

If you have to brake in the rifle with lubrication until it wears the parts to some degree, wouldn't that imply that the parts simply aren't sized correctly to begin with?

All I know is that I haven't lubricated my new Springfield Victor .308 since I bought it and I've had no malfunctions at all and I've put 450 rounds through it so far, I guess mine broke in with the first round.

Okay. 

[Matt.Cross]

1 hour ago, montanamac said:

So like magic the AR 10 will run well without excessive lubrication AFTER you've shot it a lot.

Not what I said or implied, but a strawman is nothing new to me.

1 hour ago, montanamac said:

Exactly what kind of round count do you consider "broken in"?

The kind where most of the operation of the rifle becomes quite smooth by feel. That's not always the same number of rounds, it depends on the individual rifle.

1 hour ago, montanamac said:

If a machine of any kind wont work well unless you lubricate it then the parts aren't fit together correctly.

Like an engine for instance? Or maybe machine tools are a better example? 

1 hour ago, montanamac said:

Lubrication is designed to REDUCE wear on parts.  Braking in a rifle typically is a process of wearing parts in such a way as to make them fit together better.  So according to your logic,  lubricate the rifle so that the parts don't wear and then it will work better after the parts have worn to some degree.

That's not my logic at all, and I'll offer you $1000 cash to show me where I've ever said such.

52 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

If braking in is simply wearing the parts to some degree and lubrication reduces wear, then doesn't it make sense that if you shoot it without lubrication it would brake in quicker?

No. It would make sense that unlubricated metal-to-metal contact between metals of varying materials, strength, hardness, and surface finish would only be an invitation to the overall deterioration and inefficiency of contact surfaces, or galling. Lubrication serves to minimize the number of inefficient contact surfaces until interference surfaces wear into a state of even lubrication and surface contact.

1 hour ago, montanamac said:

If you have to brake in the rifle with lubrication until it wears the parts to some degree, wouldn't that imply that the parts simply aren't sized correctly to begin with?

No. See above.

1 hour ago, montanamac said:

All I know is that I haven't lubricated my new Springfield Victor .308 since I bought it and I've had no malfunctions at all and I've put 450 rounds through it so far, I guess mine broke in with the first round.

That's terrific. It's also a sample size of one that's specific to your experience, so making generalizations about the platform in general on that basis seems ill-advised.

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, montanamac said:

All I know is that I haven't lubricated my new Springfield Victor .308 since I bought it and I've had no malfunctions at all and I've put 450 rounds through it so far, I guess mine broke in with the first round.

That's a full factory rifle, of good quality.  You didn't build a damn thing on it.  You bought it.

What's your gas tube length?  Buffer weight?  internal depth of your receiver extension?  Gas port diameter?  You don't know...  you didn't have to figure it out, as you built it, and had issues.  You bought rack-gun off a store shelf.

 

10 minutes ago, Matt.Cross said:

That's terrific. It's also a sample size of one that's specific to your experience, so making generalizations about the platform in general on that basis seems ill-advised.

That sample size of one is correct- for a good quality factory-built rifle.  It's no LaRue rifle, or a full-on Wilson Combat, but it's a good quality rifle.  Don't sweat him, brother - he built nothing here.  He bought a gun, and shot it. He might have missed the part where I can break in a new AR15 with zero lube - because all the manufacturers have to be on the same page, or the built gun doesn't work.  That's not .308AR stuff, though.  

Let him think what he thinks.  He's cool.   

Edited March 7, 2020 by 98Z5V

[Matt.Cross]

2 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Let him think what he thinks.  He's cool.   

I'm perfectly OK with what he thinks, and OK with him being wrong too, but anyone stumbling across this thread while trying to get their build working should understand the fallacies.

[98Z5V]

He was here 22 minutes ago, but didn't say anything...  Probably working on what to say, right now. 

[sagebrush]

in my limited exposure to 308ar's I've not seen a gas tube quite like the one in his picture. it does come to the center of cutout, but the tube looks very small, with a large end. maybe the diameter of gas tube is to small and not moving enough gas through tube.

[98Z5V]

They all look like that.  Quoting the pic that you're talking about would help. Gas tubes have a max ID of 0.125", and they're all basically the same, in construction.   There's a shiit-ton of 304 stainless gas tubes on the market, and I'll argue to my death that the proper material is 303 stainless, but the aftermarket doesn't care. 304 is cheaper.  Next time you people here bitch about some top-brand company charging $50 for a M4 Carbine gas tube, when you can get it for $14 from "whoever" - that top-tier company was probably making that real no-poop REAL mil-spec gas tube from 303 stainless - and it's more expensive.  Budget shop "xx" weas selling you that $14 gas tube that's all about mil-spec everything - and it's 304 stainless.

My soapbox on gas tubes, and their proper construction... 

[sagebrush]

On 3/1/2020 at 11:51 AM, aadavis94 said:

So I've built an AR .308 and I'm having FTE and FTF issues 

Aero precision:

M5 upper, lower and hand guard, low profile .750 gas block

Armalite:

carbine length gas tube

6 position buffer tube, spring and buffer

18 inch stainless fluted barrel (specs in pic below)

Ke arms slt2 trigger. 

10 round pmag. 

VG6 lamba muzzle Device

2nd picture up, tube looks small and last inch looks like the normal size

[98Z5V]

Normal.

[Albroswift]

6 hours ago, sagebrush said:

2nd picture up, tube looks small and last inch looks like the normal size

2nd picture up is mine. All same diameter until "Knob", optical illusion maybe caused by camera flash. Just turns from shiny to rough where it slips into the gas key. Probably caused by fouling from escaping hot gases .

Edited March 7, 2020 by Albroswift

[aadavis94]

1 hour ago, Albroswift said:

2nd picture up is mine. All same diameter until "Knob", optical illusion maybe caused by camera flash. Just turns from shiny to rough where it slips into the gas key. Probably caused by fouling from escaping hot gases .

I didn't even notice I put the wrong picture up. Here is the correct one. 

[Albroswift]

Looks good. Lets get this thing running!

[Albroswift]

@sagebrush Looking at that photo I gotta pull the shooter out when I get home and take another look. Gotta be an optical illusion. Gun runs fine BTW. AGB 4.25 clicks.

[sagebrush]

3 hours ago, aadavis94 said:

I didn't even notice I put the wrong picture up. Here is the correct one. 

this one does look normal. the other looks odd to me, very well just picture

[Albroswift]

@sagebrush

OK, Actual photo is looking down on my 12.5" 308 pistol.

The tube is the 11-3/8" one I made from a straight rifle length, (Too impatient to wait for White Oak? to get back from the Nat's )

The one on the left in the photo below is mine, factory tube right. Turned it down on the lathe very carefully and even more carefully applied the bend. 

[sagebrush]

6 hours ago, Albroswift said:

@sagebrush

OK, Actual photo is looking down on my 12.5" 308 pistol.

The tube is the 11-3/8" one I made from a straight rifle length, (Too impatient to wait for White Oak? to get back from the Nat's )

The one on the left in the photo below is mine, factory tube right. Turned it down on the lathe very carefully and even more carefully applied the bend. 

nice looks every bit factory

[aadavis94]

Ok. So I went to install my new ejector and proceeded to bend the roll pin upon install 😅😐. Best place to order a new one from?

[aadavis94]

Ok. So I went to install my new ejector and proceeded to bend the roll pin upon install 😅😐. Best place to order a new one from?

 

Also now my ejector seems to be stuck and won't move at all. 

[montanamac]

Hmm, you mean the ejector or something associated with it might have caused your ejection problem?  Wow, who would have thought - 😏

[aadavis94]

9 minutes ago, montanamac said:

Hmm, you mean the ejector or something associated with it might have caused your ejection problem?  Wow, who would have thought - 😏

No If you had read the last couple posts you would of seen that when I took my old ejector out it went flying and I couldn't find it. I ordered a new one and now it is stuck in the bolt. 

Don't troll my posts 

[Albroswift]

 Bummer about the stuck ejector, either bent it or embedded something foreign in there. I would first put some oil in the hole and then try to push the ejector in against the spring see if you can get it to move in and out. Hopefully it will go shooting across the shop and land near the last one.  Hopefully you have a spare.

What are you using to compress it and hold in place while you pin it? Bolt really needs to be held secure during this operation.  

There is a thread on this forum somewhere that has all the roll pin sizes, or order one. I use Damage Industries for little parts like that.

 http://damageindustriesllc.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=335&search=ejector+pin

My preferred install method is tape the pin to a nail set, VERY light bevel grind on the leading edge and it starts straight and installs easily. Same technique with the gas block pin. 

Good luck, we'll get this thing shooting if it kills us!

Edited March 14, 2020 by Albroswift

[Albroswift]

@aadavis94 Friend was shooting a new 6.5 CM build, exhibiting similar problems. Armalite buffer system, Toolcraft bolt. Seekins adjustable gas block. Even with the heavy buffer system, we still had to back the gas block down about 50% before 100% reliable. (port  hole .087, midlength gas) 

[aadavis94]

On 3/13/2020 at 5:05 PM, Albroswift said:

 Bummer about the stuck ejector, either bent it or embedded something foreign in there. I would first put some oil in the hole and then try to push the ejector in against the spring see if you can get it to move in and out. Hopefully it will go shooting across the shop and land near the last one.  Hopefully you have a spare.

What are you using to compress it and hold in place while you pin it? Bolt really needs to be held secure during this operation.  

There is a thread on this forum somewhere that has all the roll pin sizes, or order one. I use Damage Industries for little parts like that.

 http://damageindustriesllc.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=335&search=ejector+pin

My preferred install method is tape the pin to a nail set, VERY light bevel grind on the leading edge and it starts straight and installs easily. Same technique with the gas block pin. 

Good luck, we'll get this thing shooting if it kills us!

I put it in a vice and used a small c clamp to compress the ejector and spring 

[Albroswift]

@aadavis94

Did you get the ejector out? If not, probably best option would be to send the complete BCG back to AP, they are a pretty good bunch, if they couldn't fix it they would probably just replace the bolt for little or no charge.