5D Tactical - simple way to slightly reduce OD of takedown pin ?

[Tack14]

Once upon a time not many moons ago, a hypothetical person bought a 5D Tactical Router Jig Pro Multiplatform AR15/AR10 kit, and discovered that the takedown pin supplied with the kit is just a little too big to go into the front pivot pin holes of his American Made Tactical 80% lowers.  It almost gets to the end of the "entry taper", but not quite, and doesn't even make it to the point where the spring loaded detent ball in the pin supplied with the kit meets the front pivot pin hole in the right side of the receiver before it stops.  Even after applying oil to the pin and the holes, it is obvious the pin is just a little too big to go in without force. Although the actual front pivot pins from all of the hypothetical person's KAK LPK's will go in and through the holes of both ears of their lowers just fine (so hypothetical person knows the problem is the diameter of the pin supplied with the jig kit, not undersized holes in the receiver).  Hypothetical person does not feel comfortable trying to use a rubber mallet or other impact-driven means to force the takedown pin from the 5D tactical kit into/through the front pivot pin holes in his lowers for fear that it will damage the receiver or enlarge the holes, which cannot be undone, and skeptical that they should need to, either.

The hypothetical person, noticing 5D Tactical seems to greatly prefer email-based support rather than telephone based support, since support is only open 2 hours a day, sends multiple emails to 5D Tactical support email address posted conspicuously in multiple places on the website, describing the problem and requesting advice or replacement of the takedown pin in the kit, but receives no response.  Not in days of waiting, and even still to this date.

Hypothetical customer understands 5D is very busy selling more Router Jig Pro kits and other products right now but is also ready to get the lower work done.  And decides after a few days without response to his emails to call instead.  It takes a few minutes to convince the person on the phone the problem really is the takedown pin is too big around, because any of his LPK's' actual front pivot pins will go into and through any of these lowers' front pivot pin holes fine, albeit slight snug but not requiring more than slight gentle taps, nothing unreasonable, but also understands it is going to take more than a couple love taps with a rubber mallet and a nylon punch to get the 5D takedown pin into any of these lowers.  But the person at 5D Tactical does acknowledge they have heard of this happening before and agrees to send a replacement takedown pin.  Although they could not seem to find any of hypothetical person's emails, they were able to confirm purchase of product, and the hypothetical person's orders to confirm correct address to send the replacement to, and stated the replacement would be sent out by the end of the week.

The week passes, and no replacement pin is sent.  So hypothetical person calls 5D Tactical again, gets the same 5D Tactical support person after a much shorter hold time than the week before (2-3 minutes, versus 35-40 minutes) and asks if they recall the previous week's conversation, which they do.  Hypothetical person is still polite and understanding, apologies are made by 5D Tactical staff on phone and assurance that the replacement pin will be sent by end of business day, shipping address is confirmed again, and 5D staff tells hypothetical person they will get an email with tracking number when the replacement part is shipped.

5D Tactical is also having a sale on the multiplatform router jig pro kit, incidentally.  But the next day, they shut down their phone support altogether, as seen at the bottom of every page on their website.  Calling the number results in a recording without option to leave a message and a hang up.

After two days have passed since speaking with 5D Tactical, still no email with tracking number is sent and hypothetical customer now has no way to contact 5D Tactical other than email, which they have yet to see a reply to.  Hypothetical customer would even consider BUYING the replacement pin even if they had to pay the shipping to send it here, but there is nobody to talk to about that now, there isn't a clicky clicky to buy replacement this replacement part (or many others) on their website.

Hypothetical customer very well understands the times, perhaps a little too well, but loses patience after spending $450 on the highly vaunted 5D Tactical Router Jig Pro kit plus spare sharp rotary parts, and the appearance that 5D Tactical is so busy and focused upon taking people's money and processing orders that they don't have time or inclination to support the customers who already bought their flagship product but  can't use it because a $1 (at the very most) pin with a pull ring and a spring loaded detent ball is just a little too big around to fit where it is supposed to be used, and is now trying to figure out how they could possibly reduce the diameter of said  pin without lathe, bench grinder, etc. and without fookin the one pin they have up trying to make it go without hammers or excessive force.  Because by the time a replacement gets  sent, if ever, it may be against bullshi7 law to complete an 80% lower.

Hypothetical person would be quite thankful for any suggestions how to gently and with precision in mind reduce the diameter of the pin they hypothetically have, probably no more than a couple/few thousandths of an inch so the pin will go into their AMT 80% lowers, just in case 5D Tactical never sends the replacement, or the one they do send is equally too big or even worse.  The spring loaded detent ball seems like it would really be a pain (in the way).

Ideas considered thus far are, a felt polishing/buffer bit on a drill, or a dremel, perhaps while rotating the pin itself in a drill with some polishing compound.  But that spring loaded detent ball on the pin....   or perhaps if a bit longer than usual actual front pivot or rear takedown pin could be located, long enough to fit and stick out the other side, it could maybe work?

Any suggestions would be actually appreciated!

 

[Tack14]

PS:  Hypothetical person does not have the AR15 pin confused with the AR10 pin.  They are colored differently on purpose and they are obviously not the same diameter. 🙂

[DustBuster]

What a pain in the butt dealing with that company and their ripoff product.  Assuming your lower holes are proper spec size and that you ordered the correct kit, this company sounds irresponsible.  A simple solution could be to get ( this is from memory of when I made my laser bore sight jig) is use a 1/4 bolt and wrap a few nicely spirally wrapped layers of electrical tape until the fit is proper.  Slap a couple of washers and some nuts on it and tighten to exactly 232.34 in-lbs of torque.  ( just kidding on the torque). 

Then send a scathing review to all of the websites you can think of... hypothetically 🙂  You’ll get er done... I made a wooden jig with a 13 dollar top shape plate and hogged mine out with a painfully loud carbide with a missing tooth after the first plunge.

Im dealing now with a scope that doesn’t like 30 yards because of bad parellax.  Good luck Tack Driver

[shooterrex]

Just buy someone else's pivot pin.

Or drill the hole slightly larger.

[Tack14]

Thanks guys.  And @DustBuster thanks that is a great idea just  use a 1/4" bolt instead (which will of course be < .250") and tape wrap as needed to snug up the fit.  Then I don't have to find somebody else's jig front pivot pin.

I really want to avoid modifying my receivers' front pivot pin holes to accommodate a bad $1 part if at all possible, since that would affect fit/wobble, am happy with how uppers fit on those lowers now with real front pivot pin.

I haven't put dial calipers on the pin yet to confirm, but comparing fit of actual front pivot pin from my LPK's to how the 5D takedown pin from the jig kit, it is very very close. Probably just a couple thousandths would do it.  But rather than muck around with trying to reduce dia of this pin with a detent ball sticking out of the side, I admire the simplicity of just using a bolt.

And I also agree with the review thing.  I have looked at 80% lower completion jigs for a number of years before pulling the trigger on this one, and didn't have a problem paying the asking price for the multiplatform AR15/308/etc kit with the results people get with this jig if they are not morons (there is a 1h long youtube video out there of somebody totally wrecking their lower with one of these, but because he didn't follow instructions or have any common sense about machining and tooling, even with the very impressive collection of tools, presses, etc. he showed off on the video) -- but I also expect them to stand behind their product when something isn't right.

While I am a highly specialized IT engineer by profession a lot of my daily job is still basic customer service 101, and this is a big one:  Don't set expectations you can't fulfill.  I can take being told "we don't have any of those right now until our next production run at the machinist comes in, ETA 2 weeks (or whatever)" a whole lot better than "we will have this out to you by the end of the week" and then when you fail to deliver on those expectations you set, you tell an even bigger lie and say "it will be sent out by close of business today".

Then when  you shut down your customer service/sales/support phone line, but never answer any of the emails you tell people to send if they need some help  -- all while spamming your inbox with more sales sales sales promotional spam, what other conclusion are people with functional brains  supposed to come to? 

"take the money and run" operation AFAIC.

As a certain manufacturer of 80% lowers has apparently come to realize over the last couple months, gouging people even if there may be a time coming soon that you can't buy these products anymore is a great way to lose all of your business.

 

[shooterrex]

I didn't understand you were talking about the pin that holds the lower in the jig.  So nevermind.

[Tack14]

No worries shooterrex.  I should have explicitly stated that somewhere, the takedown pin supplied with the kit to hold the front of the lower in the jig or something.

 

 

[Lonewolf McQuade]

I hear ya on quality of fit, I can't get this pin through for the life of me .......

Edited June 24, 2021 by Lonewolf McQuade

[DustBuster]

Hi again Tack...Looks like Lonewolf has a good foam Lower to practice with, haha.

Spinning those pins in a drill isn’t a bad idea, sanding or using a polishing compound like they use for scope rings.  The ball and detent could be removed if possible and then a cotter pin used instead if they wouldn’t go back in.  Either solution will result in a tiny bit of slop in the bigger holes of the jig, but maybe not enough to matter. Good Luck.

[Tack14]

Lonewolf McQuade aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahhaha!!!

 

Thanks DustBuster.  I was thinking about that same kind of thing, like you would do to lap your scope rings.

Also considering just using one of the actual front pivot pins from an LPK gotta see if that will fit/work with their jig.

 

 

 

[Tack14]

So, 5D *DID* send another jig takedown pin (custom part normally supplied with the jig) along with an actual AR takedown  pin.  They never did reply to any of my emails,  but at least a replacement came in the mail.

The replacement jig takedown pin they sent goes a little farther into the lowers' front pivot pin hole, but still won't go all they way in.  The AR takedown pin they also included, of course, works, but the ones from my KAK LPK's provide a tighter fit.

Maybe it is not a bad thing to have a couple different sizes of pins, pick whichever is the tightest fitting one that will actually go into the lower you are working on.  All in effort to keep the lower from moving in the jig while working on it.......

 

[Albroswift]

7 hours ago, Tack14 said:

never did reply to any of my emails,

I have used the 5D with AMT, Anderson,  Noreen,  and several other large and small frame lowers, haven't experienced the pin problem but it IS a really tight fit, tap with rubber mallet tight on a couple.
That said, hate it when a vendor does that, ghosts their customer service obligations. Total BS. Might as well buy the knock off.

PS Seller on ebay has the cutters.  

 

[DustBuster]

Maybe it is mostly the ball bearing making it super snug.  Maybe grease and Albroswifts mallet is the solution.  Could freeze the pins but removal will not be helped

[Tack14]

Thanks for the additional replies.

Out of curiousity I decided to see if tapping with a mallet would get it to go.  Long story short, neither pin they sent would go all the way through.  I got it almost the whole way through, it was starting to come out the left "ear" but it was super, super tight the whole time, even oiled up.  Un-naturally tight. :)

The good news was it did not do anything to the receiver, it seemed to be harder than the pin. Anyway it's OK.  Got past it. :)

 

[Tack14]

BTW I also did some reading etc and saw a few people say they were not having as good fortune with the stock (5D) carbide end mills lasting very well.  Found somebody out there selling replacement cutters and drills for various 80%  jig kits including replacement thermal fit cutter for the router jig pro, but with a Zirconium Nitride coating.  From sounds of it this coating  greatly enhances the life of the cutter and ease/quality of cut --  but I read mixed reviews of their shipping times, etc. and not good reviews at all about ability to contact them.  This led me to more reading about Zirconium Nitride coatings, and it sounds like a legit and significant improvement.

Already had a couple ready mills from 5D but after reading the feedback from some people that theirs dont last very long before they dull, I went looking for somebody I've dealt with before with Zirconium Nitride coating as an option on their end mills.  Turns out Kodiak Cutting Tools sells them.  Prices are in same range as the stock ones 5D sells, and best I could tell they are compatible specs (length of cut, flutes, diameter, etc.) as the other aftermarket one, just a tad longer OAL  so I ordered one just in case... nice quality looking piece.  But ended up not needing it right now.  I did use cutting fluid the whole time, dribbled a few drops around and spread with finger before each pass, probably helped some.

This is the kodiak one:

https://www.kodiakcuttingtools.com/viewproducts/carbide-end-mills-3-flute-stub-length-45-degree-zrn-coated-for-aluminum&parttohighlight=5449442

 

[Tack14]

In retrospect i would say that the 5D router jig pro is a pretty good setup, but your thumbs may end up hurting a bit from guiding the router depending what/how you are doing.

I really wish 5D Tactical had a complete spare parts list on their site, so you could "clicky click" your way through having some spare parts for the jig.  Since clicky-click ecommerce seems to be their favorite type of doing business rather than answering emails or talking to customers, so when your jig kit costs $329 plus rotary expendables, etc. you really also ought to have the complete parts list available to clicky-click order spare parts from.  I didn't lose or break anything but imagine if you lost one of the two depth keys for #1, #2 or #3 depth.  A $1 part missing and bam you are out of business.  (this is why companies need human presence in their support)

One gotcha or thing to be careful of is drilling the safety and pin holes.  At least on mine, there was enough slack in the hardened drill guides that if you aren't careful, you could drill off-angle and end  up with a left-side and right-side hole for one of the pins, or your safety selector, that are mis-aligned.  I drilled from each side and stopped once the bit came through that side, rather than drilling all the way through.  Especially when I saw the potential for misalignment with amount of bit angle the drill guides would allow.  If you're going to have drill guides and brag about how long yours is (reminds me of another sort of measuring contest) then  they ought to not be oversized diamter enough to be able to get off alignment.  In my opinion...

The way I did mine after some reading I had done elsewhere was use carbide-tipped jobber length drills from McMaster to start the holes (get through the hardcoat anodizing) without dulling the 5D black and gold bits,  and then switching the bits out to the "black and gold" bits behind them to finish the drilling.  Worked out pretty well and the carbide tipped bits are still nice and sharp, as are the 1st set of black and gold bits I bought.  Cutting oil also used for the drilling.

Pretty happy overall.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Tack14

[DustBuster]

Good Job Tack14, glad you got past the tight fitting pins of the jig.  I take it you finished the hogging and drilling.  What is your next step gonna be, assemble some parts and maybe test your trigger out?  I looked back and scanned your parts list, but didn’t see a trigger.  What kind of trigger are you putting in there, hypothetically, 🙂 ?  I miss the weeks and months leading up to my Hog it Out job.  I can’t believe I pulled it off successfully.  Did your shop vaac suck up the majority of the mess, connected to the jig?  Anyway, it will be exciting to try er out for the first time.  

[Tack14]

Hey DustBuster,

Yep there have been so many first times for me on all this but it has been pretty fun.  I'm trying not to damage finish too bad on anything.. 

Milling out went pretty well with the jig and a Dewalt 611. It worked out pretty well on AR15 lower just using tightest actual front pivot pin I had that would go into/through with the lower in the jig.  By the time you tighten down all the screws per the instructions and cinch down the vacuum hose/receiver extension, it is solid.

I did some test assembling of a couple before milling the lowers to get an idea of weight/balance/feel.  Upper for the shorter 308 is just about ready, just gotta wrap up the set screw dimpling for the gas block.  (wanna sink the set screws deeper if possible so they aren't sticking out the bottom of the  gas block).

I have a couple diff kinds of trigger groups but so far I've installed and tried out a KAK stock trigger from one of the AR-15 LPK's  The one I put in is actually pretty darn smooth/crisp for a stock mil-spec trigger group from an LPK -- really wasn't expecting it to break that clean.  But I had read that in the reviews about KAK's triggers too.  Haven't put it on the gauge but it feels like about 6lb, maybe 6.5 and not really feeling any creep.    I wanted to start off putting one of those in the lower first, I'd be least upset if I messed up one of the parts of those since I have some extras there.  But I'll be on lookout for an ACT and something a little nicer for a bigger build with some glass on top, not too sure just yet which one, need to research.

I'll be  throwing a set of anti-walk/rotation pins on too.  Hadn't read up on those much before, I figured they were just for people whose pin holes were a little oversize from wear (mine seem to be about average mostly, comparing to a factory built one) but after reading I realized its a good investment for consistency of trigger group performance and also good insurance against having a FCG oops at an inopportune time and against future wear.  The Gen2 KNS side plates fit/clear the cutouts around the mag release and mag catch on an AMT 308 lower just fine BTW.

The shop vac did a good job but as some of the better tut videos out there on the tube suggest, the lower the end mill goes, the less will get sucked up into the vacuum.  I got lucky and found a size of vinyl tubing (1.25" ID) that cutting about a 2" piece off of was the perfect adapter to fit onto the blue hose adapter/receiver extension "lock nut" and attach the vacuum hose too.  I ended up having the vacuum around the vise holding everything up every few passes  (was trying to not let the shaving pile up too much).

 

Looking forward to getting to the range soon!

[98Z5V]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:18 PM, DustBuster said:

Maybe it is mostly the ball bearing making it super snug.

Where's the ball bearing that you're talking about?  Is it in the jig that's being referenced here in this thread?  There's no ball bearing in an AR assembly, that's for sure.

[shooterrex]

3 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Where's the ball bearing that you're talking about?  Is it in the jig that's being referenced here in this thread?  There's no ball bearing in an AR assembly, that's for sure.

I think the pin the jig comes with to hold the 80% lower in the jig has a ball detent on the end to make it stay in place .

[Tack14]

Hey there 98Z5V ---

Yea, I was talking about the spring-loaded detent ball on the customized pins 5D includes with their Router Jig Pro kits (that are used in place of the AR15 or DPMS 308 lower front pivot pins while holding the lowers in their jig assy).  2 different AR15 ones they sent were just too tight to work with an AMT AR15 lower.  The 2nd one they sent was a little better but still couldn't  even be tapped all the way through without having to apply WAY too much force.  hehe there was no danger of that pin falling back out by itself  and needing the ball detent  🙂

[jim3326]

On 7/22/2021 at 2:24 PM, Tack14 said:

In retrospect i would say that the 5D router jig pro is a pretty good setup, but your thumbs may end up hurting a bit from guiding the router depending what/how you are doing.

I really wish 5D Tactical had a complete spare parts list on their site, so you could "clicky click" your way through having some spare parts for the jig.  Since clicky-click ecommerce seems to be their favorite type of doing business rather than answering emails or talking to customers, so when your jig kit costs $329 plus rotary expendables, etc. you really also ought to have the complete parts list available to clicky-click order spare parts from.  I didn't lose or break anything but imagine if you lost one of the two depth keys for #1, #2 or #3 depth.  A $1 part missing and bam you are out of business.  (this is why companies need human presence in their support)

One gotcha or thing to be careful of is drilling the safety and pin holes.  At least on mine, there was enough slack in the hardened drill guides that if you aren't careful, you could drill off-angle and end  up with a left-side and right-side hole for one of the pins, or your safety selector, that are mis-aligned.  I drilled from each side and stopped once the bit came through that side, rather than drilling all the way through.  Especially when I saw the potential for misalignment with amount of bit angle the drill guides would allow.  If you're going to have drill guides and brag about how long yours is (reminds me of another sort of measuring contest) then  they ought to not be oversized diamter enough to be able to get off alignment.  In my opinion...

The way I did mine after some reading I had done elsewhere was use carbide-tipped jobber length drills from McMaster to start the holes (get through the hardcoat anodizing) without dulling the 5D black and gold bits,  and then switching the bits out to the "black and gold" bits behind them to finish the drilling.  Worked out pretty well and the carbide tipped bits are still nice and sharp, as are the 1st set of black and gold bits I bought.  Cutting oil also used for the drilling.

Pretty happy overall.

 

Hey Tack,

I've milled 4 lowers so far with mine. The first one was a Davidson Defense and the pin was real snug also but it did go through. Next two were 5d's and the pin was fine. You mentioned the takedown pin was snug so that would make me believe when they coated the lower it added a little to much material. Just a thought.

I put cardboard on both sides and on top in the bolt catch slot and attached the vacuum to the buffer nut. Almost no chips, only those that fell out the trigger hole. I used the Tapmatic wax for my cutting lube, real happy so far.

[Tack14]

Hi Jim - that is good to hear.  I could have probably forced their AR15 jig front pin the rest of the way through but it was really solid with a KAK front pivot pin stuck through.   Good point about the anodizing adding thickness -- I could believe that might have been a factor.

Also neat trick there with the cardboard.  I did something similar to go back and hit one spot on a trigger oval cutout at the bottom a little better, putting inward-facing masking tab around the outside of the trigger guard.

Tapmatic wax - cool!  that would be way less messy than cutting fluid, no doubt.

[Albroswift]

On 8/3/2021 at 11:39 PM, jim3326 said:

#1, #2 or #3 depth.  A $1 part missing and bam you are out of business. 

Order that poop ahead of time. Just like our AR's, have some spare parts in the bin. 1 extra cutter, a few of those screws made out of the softest metal known to man, a set of the guide buttons/ bushings minimum. Brother borrowed mine and router got away from him a little, bounced around, and flattened the sides of the guide bushings. Same brother (Noticing a trend?) seems to be hard on the cutters, don't think he quite has the whole "ease into the cut" thing figured out. I always have a spare cutter set in a spare arbor, and another couple un-mounted cutters. 

+1 on the vac attachment. I haven't noticed the need for the cardboard, Wax sounds like a great Idea, I use tap magic for aluminum, been using it on the lathe and mill as well but will try some wax. 

Have the router and vacuum on a foot switch makes for a good setup. 

[joshil]

On 6/25/2021 at 4:31 AM, DustBuster said:

Hi again Tack...Looks like Lonewolf has a good foam Lower to practice with, haha.

Spinning those pins in a drill isn’t a bad idea, sanding or using a polishing compound like they use for scope rings.  The ball and detent could be removed if possible and then a cotter pin used instead if they wouldn’t go back in.  Either solution will result in a tiny bit of slop in the bigger holes of the jig, but maybe not enough to matter. Good Luck.

which Grit number you have used for sanding?