.308 bullet choice Question(s):

[SgtDog0311]

With ammo prices what they are I’m looking for experience & recommendations for a good bullet with a good blend of accuracy and hunting potential.    Anticipating the proper question of  “what are you going to use it for”, I’ll just say for personal defense emergency and hunting - with as much accuracy as I can afford.   I mostly want a small stockpile.   I know thst is a relative term.  

I’ve a good supply of 168 SMK for paper and thought it might be practical to stay near that weight - but would consider any input.   I’ve got an AR-.308 and an M1A.    The AR is an 18” with Criterion barrel.   If recommendations are specific to each rifle so much the better. 

On another post I saw considerable consensus for the 168 A-Max.   I was wondering if those were pretty comparable to the SGK -  were SGK always 165gr?    When I last visited this I was thinking the SBT were 168gr.   They changed or my recollection is mistaken.  

[98Z5V]

You stay in that range, and you'll be alright.  Sierra Game Kings are great hunting projectiles, no matter what you'll hunt.  That weight range of the 165 SGK will keep it pretty close to what you're doing now with the 168 Match Kings, dope won't be far off, for distances - unless you're going LONG.  If you're staying under 600 yards, it won't much matter, between the two projectiles.

Another one to consider, based on your intended purpose, is a Hornady Precision Hunter load with their own ELD-X projectiles. The only Precision Hunter load they offer for .308 Win is the 178 ELD-X, and I'm not sure how that would do in the M1A.  That projectile is the best one they've got for .308 Win, amongst all their projectiles, even the ELD-M.  I switched my .308 Win handloads over to that projectile about 3 years ago, and I'm glad I did.  Works great for precision, distance, and hunting.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks 98Z5V.   I’ll watch for the SGK.   Looks like I can get some from Midway for workup.

 

Some years back I was given a box of once fired brass.  After sorting I have 200 Win cases, 350 LC 11, and a grab bag of 300 or so LC of various year production.   Thought I might dedicate the LC to the M1A (not sure about LC brass consistency across years-of-production), then add to the commercial for the AR.   Have not looked at brass availability or prices yet.

[dpete]

@98Z5V is definitely the man to ask about LC consistency over production years.  He has lots of LC 308 cases from some mysterious northern source.    

[98Z5V]

10 hours ago, SgtDog0311 said:

Thanks 98Z5V.   I’ll watch for the SGK.   Looks like I can get some from Midway for workup.

 

Some years back I was given a box of once fired brass.  After sorting I have 200 Win cases, 350 LC 11, and a grab bag of 300 or so LC of various year production.   Thought I might dedicate the LC to the M1A (not sure about LC brass consistency across years-of-production), then add to the commercial for the AR.   Have not looked at brass availability or prices yet.

LC brass consistency is excellent, year to year, even many, many years apart.  As good as alot of other companies match brass.  Just check OAL on the cases at first - if they're all pretty close, you're good to go.  If you see a HUGE variation in cartridge OAL,..   it was fired from a machine gun...     It's real easy to overcome that, after sizing, and just trim them all to the same length - and mark them, those long bastards that went through the MG.  They'll lose primer pockets faster than "normal."   Just something to watch.

7 hours ago, dpete said:

@98Z5V is definitely the man to ask about LC consistency over production years.  He has lots of LC 308 cases from some mysterious northern source.    

There's about 1,200 of those shiny, primed little beauties loaded up now.     That's the only brass that I'll use for the Mk11 load, with the 178 ELD-X projos.  That load is amazing.  

[SgtDog0311]

I’ll pay close attention to length.  Thnx!

Are small based dies necessary or at least advisable?

[dpete]

1 hour ago, SgtDog0311 said:

I’ll pay close attention to length.  Thnx!

Are small based dies necessary or at least advisable?

For a 308 AR not really.  Full length resize all the brass you intend on using in it, a case gauge is an invaluable tool to make sure they will chamber.  Trim them to spec if necessary.  Load them up and crimp with a Lee factory crimp die.

Wilson 308 case gauge:

 

[SgtDog0311]

Bear with me, I have not visited this for more than a decade when I was working for a short while with my M1A.  
~~~~
I trim all my calibers with a Wilson but don’t have the gauge pictured.   I do find I bought a Whidden Gunworks Shoulder Bump Gauge for .308.  Back when ~ I can’t recall.

So I just checked some of my sized and primed Win brass I’d previously shot in the M1A.   Length is 2.008 and shoulder is -.002 on the Whidden gauge.   I’d guess that is good to go notwithstanding my M1A is a 7.62 chamber.

Next up, somewhere along the line I sized some LC and trimmed, even primed it.  Length = 2.010 but shoulder is +.006 or .007.   So, I didn’t bump that shoulder back enough it looks like.   Correct??   I’ll have to do some forensics on how I set up that die.

Lastly, I just sampled some of the fired LC I hadn’t done anything with but wet-tumble.   Lengths were from 2.008 to 2.016.   Most are between those extremes.   Shoulders were +.009 from  “GO” on the Whiddon gauge.   I’m guessing those could be Machine Gun runs?  
 

Think I’ll go stick one of those LC in the press and see what the shoulder reads with the ram bottomed-out against the sizing die.   I’ll report back.






 

[SgtDog0311]

OK.  Sized two cases with two dies.

Left: RCBS 308Win XL SB 10 
(barely returned setback to “GO”)
Right: RCBS 308 XL….10
(Started at +.008; bumped shoulder back to +.004)
So still too long per Whiddon gauge.  
 

Testing in chamber the bolt would need help closing.  When I let it go home it resized so as gauge made it to “GO”.  

Both Sizers turned down with case holder firmly contacting bottom of die.

Thoughts on the dies or methods??





 

[98Z5V]

AS long as it doesn't deform (bulge) the base of the shoulder, then you're good.  The machine guns are chambered so those bastards can keep shooting - ALOT - even when fouled.  Badly fouled.  That's why most of the good ones are open-bolt designs.  They fire from the open bolt, not a closed bolt.  If you need a machine gun, and have to stop using it, to clean the chamber because it stopped running - then the design of the gun in the first place is bad.  Machine gun brass will be quite a bit longer than the numbers you're stating.

This was all just stuff that was shot from different guns. 

[98Z5V]

I'll get some machine gun brass from Dillon Aero, and get some measurements for comparison.  That's all minigun brass, right there.  I know it ain't a 240 or M60, but there's a difference in brass.

[SgtDog0311]

Thnx.

Does the Redding or some other die do a better job setting the shoulder back?

Not sure if I was clear but the RCBS Small Base barely got to “Go” on the gauge. (confirmed by chamber).

and the XL didn’t even set it back enough to chamber.   That was with the die bottomed out on the case holder.

[SgtDog0311]

Duh!   I think I answered my own question.   The extractor isn’t gonna just slip over the rim so I wasn’t proving anything by easing the bolt down on a sized case.   
 

Then, even though my sized brass didn’t set the datum all the way back to “Go” once in the Whiddon gauge, that didn’t mean I didn’t still have several thousands before it read “No Go” (0.007) to be exact.

https://youtu.be/p3d_3yk6EFc

[MikedaddyH]

I did a bullet test a few years ago used different weight projectiles and different profiles . Found that the 168gr was best for my guns. Sierra Match Kings 168gr bthp  we're that best i tested. Wicked bullet !!!!

 

 

[MikedaddyH]

On 8/5/2022 at 8:27 PM, 98Z5V said:

I'll get some machine gun brass from Dillon Aero, and get some measurements for comparison.  That's all minigun brass, right there.  I know it ain't a 240 or M60, but there's a difference in brass.

I would pass on the Mini Gun Brass. It's not worth the extra work to make it right !  I have been down that road.

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, MikedaddyH said:

I would pass on the Mini Gun Brass. It's not worth the extra work to make it right !  I have been down that road.

Just for comparison, brother - so people can see what the machinguns do to brass... 

[MtnMike]

I've been assembling a decent variety of hunting ammos to test in two different AR10s for comparison.  With the holiday weekend upcoming, it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to the range. I've got to work on stands and food plots this weekend.  I'll report back with photos of results once accomplished.

[SgtDog0311]

I did score some 165gr SGK.    Already had some 168 SMK.    I’ll get a chance to test some loads shortly.   
 

I have the first 100 of my LC processing done.   Trimming with a Wilson will talk you into some automation.   

[Magwa]

I set all my rifles ammo to a 2 thou setback(shoulder bump) and I have multiple dies as each chamber is a bit different . I also stick with 168 Grain Freedom seeds and for hunting I only use one ! the Barnes 168 TTSX simply put it is the best hunting bullet I have ever used on deer and elk sized game as for paper I do like the Hornady ELD's or the Berger Hybrids all within that 165 to 168. I also Like to set my neck tension with a mandrel NOT with the ball in a full length sizing die I take them out and use a Lee universal decapper the balls also stretch your brass if you have already trimmed to size... consistency is your friend.....

[SgtDog0311]

Interesting Magwa.

I posed something like this question elswhere:

Over in the Service Rifle forum I followed some instructions to set up my sizing die for my M1A.   It involved removing the extractor paw from the bolt and lowering till the bolt rotated closed on a piece of brass I’d sized after adjusting the sizing die down till the bolt lugs just barely latched freely closed with the latest adjustment.   The aim was to achieve minimum headspace with the die setting.

So, when you say you bump 0.002 then, I’d guess using the above method you’d recommend a 0.002 allowance from whatever reading I took from a sized peice of brass that just allowed the bolt to rotate as I eased it down on the sized case.

My question was if what worked for an M1A would it be adequate for an AR style gas system?    Or if perhaps I should allow for a dirtier gas system for reliability sake.

At any rate, I didn’t do this with my first test batch.   I just went with a datum GO gauge.  

Odd thing was my RCBS sizer wouldn’t take case diameters all the way back down to new case dimensions, even bottoming out on the shell holder.   Cases lacked almost a rim thickness of fully chambering in a case gauge.   But they chamber fine in the rifle.   If I used a small base die they fit both.

On your mandrel comment, I tried this NOE, just to satisfy my curiosity.    Worked fine.   No stretch showed up with or without neck lube.