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22-250 AR10 Platform, No cycle


Steve S

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10 hours ago, Steve S said:

I will get started on these recommendations and get back you in a few weeks. It will take a bit of time but some really great info that I am going to put to use.

It is a procedure for sure. I like the caliber interesting choice. One thing 98Z was pointing out was your bolt catch. They vary a lot. Small frame catches fit in large frames but with mixed results. If it drops in it is probably small. If it needs fitting it is probably large frame. Beefier the better. We should add to Waterboarding thread. 

 My go to is the Armalite, think off hand 10B Maybe someone will correct me. 

 

257375068_2021-12-1317_49_37.thumb.jpg.d3dbc78cfc7b37f757d8ca5c8d9d51bd.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/27/2022 at 9:16 PM, 98Z5V said:

18" rifle gas .308 Win barrels with 0.750" journals need right at 0.095" gas ports.  20" rifle gas .308 Win barrels with 0.750" journals need around 0.090" gas ports.  It's a range of about 0.005" of a window that will get you running right.  I list the number in the middle.

A 22" rifle gas .308 Win barrel with a 0.750" journal would need a gas port about 0.085". You increase dwell time, then you need to decrease gas port diameter.  

You go down in caliber, you go down in gas port size.  My 20" rifle gas .260 Rem barrel is 2 caliber sizes away from .308 Win, has a 0.750" journal, and runs a gas port diameter of 0.080"  You're pretty far away from .308".  About 5 caliber sizes away.  

With that barrel combination, I'm seriously estimating that you'd need a gas port around 0.060" for that barrel config and caliber.  There's no shrinking the gas port diameter, so it's time to buy a good adjustable gas block.  You're gonna need it.  Recoil system definitely needs addresses, and corrected, in order to run the gas port diameters that I suggest.  Recoil system has to be straight first - but both systems also need to be balanced.

 

Now, here's what I think is going on with your gun...   That thing is a speed demon.  That BCG is hauling some serious ass, because it's WAY overgassed, AND it's under-recoiled.  I'll bet that's the H1 buffer in there, at 3.8oz, and that doesn't belong in a large frame at all.  You need an H3 buffer (5.4oz, or as close to it as you can get) to control the ass and mass of the large-frames, when under recoil.   So, you're way overgassed, it's under-recoiled, the BCG is just screamin' inside that upper.  It's going so fast that the bolt catch can't catch it and lock it back, and it's going so fast that it's not stripping the next round - the Mag spring can't get it up there in position fast enough for the bolt face to grab it.

Best buffer to get easily is the KAK Shorty heavy buffer, which comes in at 5.3oz.  It's easy to get.  Best overall buffer to get is one from Clint at HeavyBuffers.com.  The one you'd want is the first one on this page linked below, comes in at 5.5oz - it's the CAR-10 Buffer:

https://heavybuffers.com/ar10carbine.html

That's my honest assessment, and opinion...   

Hello 98Z5V,

I have not forgotten you or all the info you have described above. I have put together a listing of everything which should cover all you asked for and what I have done so far. It takes a bit of time. I will go to the range this weekend to test all this including all your suggestions. I have not installed the adj. gas block yet, but that is definitely the last option after I test all the other things you stated above.

I did take it out a few weeks ago and had installed a new custom 308 spring and it ran through 8 rounds before having issues again, so I think we are on the right track, and it is close. I am going to follow your recommendations and see where it ends up. Thanks...22-250.pdf

This has pics and descriptions of everything originally and current. 

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Just now, Steve S said:

Hello 98Z5V,

I have not forgotten you or all the info you have described above. I have put together a listing of everything which should cover all you asked for and what I have done so far. It takes a bit of time. I will go to the range this weekend to test all this including all your suggestions. I have not installed the adj. gas block yet, but that is definitely the last option after I test all the other things you stated above.

I did take it out a few weeks ago and had installed a new custom 308 spring and it ran through 8 rounds before having issues again, so I think we are on the right track, and it is close. I am going to follow your recommendations and see where it ends up. Thanks...22-250.pdf

This has pics and descriptions of everything originally and current. 

Let me know how you like the submitted layout.

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2 hours ago, Steve S said:

Let me know how you like the submitted layout.

That's badass, man - you put some work into that, and it's very easy to read, see, understand. 

Observations:

The ODIN adj buffer.  What's the length on it?  I have one of those kits that I use to fine tune the large frames, and it's a good kit.  You're still running the 7.000" internal depth carbine receiver extension, so that needs to be the ODIN 2.500" buffer, NOT the ODIN 3.250" buffer...

Armalite AR-10B bolt catch.  I tried one of those in a DPMS LR-308 patterened build once, and I had to work in it.  I think I went to the Armalite AR-10A catch after that.  Big differences between the two.  Hand cycle the gun and try that 10B out, before you head out to the range.

Lemme know on those two things.  Let's get this gun rolling.   :thumbup:

Very well done on that .pdf writeup.  :hail:

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1 hour ago, 98Z5V said:

That's badass, man - you put some work into that, and it's very easy to read, see, understand. 

Observations:

The ODIN adj buffer.  What's the length on it?  I have one of those kits that I use to fine tune the large frames, and it's a good kit.  You're still running the 7.000" internal depth carbine receiver extension, so that needs to be the ODIN 2.500" buffer, NOT the ODIN 3.250" buffer...

Armalite AR-10B bolt catch.  I tried one of those in a DPMS LR-308 patterened build once, and I had to work in it.  I think I went to the Armalite AR-10A catch after that.  Big differences between the two.  Hand cycle the gun and try that 10B out, before you head out to the range.

Lemme know on those two things.  Let's get this gun rolling.   :thumbup:

Very well done on that .pdf writeup.  :hail:

I have the ODIN 2.500" buffer with 5.6oz of wt. in it. Your thoughts on the weight?

Will check the 10B when it arrives, and I can get a chance to install it or try to. 

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1 minute ago, Steve S said:

I have the ODIN 2.500" buffer with 5.6oz of wt. in it. Your thoughts on the weight?

Will check the 10B when it arrives, and I can get a chance to install it or try to. 

Weight is perfect.  Glad it's the 2.500".  That gonna work.  Probably need the Sprinco Orange spring, but let's see how that other one works out first.  :thumbup:

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On 1/11/2023 at 10:58 PM, 98Z5V said:

Weight is perfect.  Glad it's the 2.500".  That gonna work.  Probably need the Sprinco Orange spring, but let's see how that other one works out first.  :thumbup:

Hello 98Z5V,

Went to the range today and had about the same inconsistency I started with. Orange Spring and 5.6oz buffer didn't cycle as planned, see attached pics. The customer chrome spring didn't solve the issue either.

Shell ejection still good at 430 location. What do you think about a lighter spring with heavy buffer?

22-250-1.docx

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18 minutes ago, Steve S said:

Hello 98Z5V,

Went to the range today and had about the same inconsistency I started with. Orange Spring and 5.6oz buffer didn't cycle as planned, see attached pics. The customer chrome spring didn't solve the issue either.

Shell ejection still good at 430 location. What do you think about a lighter spring with heavy buffer?

22-250-1.docx 498.38 kB · 0 downloads

 

22-250-1.pdf

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Well, this is a fun one, for sure.  Like I said before, the only company I know of that ever made a functional 22-250 was Olympic Arms. 

We'll need to sort this out.  Try those new mags.  I'll go back through the tech notes in this thread, and find what I can find.  I'll be back in a little bit.

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On 12/27/2022 at 12:38 PM, Steve S said:

gas port is .082

Okay, so we're at the 0.082" gas port diameter.  5.6oz buffer that 2.500" long inside a 7.000" receiver extension.  Sprinco Orange spring.  Recoil system should be good to go.

Let's refresh everything here on Page 3.  Adjustable gas block, or no"  Where's it set at, during function testing right now?  Should be wide open.

What's the story on the bolt catch?  What are you running for a bolt catch?  10B can make the BCG drag, in a DPMS-based build.  What's in there now?

Post a picture of where the gas tube ends in the upper receiver.  There's never been confirmation of this, yet.  Take out the BCG, take a pic down into the bottom of the upper, and show where the gas tube is sitting.

You running adjustable gas block?  Or a standard gas block, non-adjustable?

We need to get this thing solved, and running.  That info I'm requesting above it pretty important, in that step, towards making a running gun...  

Edited by 98Z5V
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58 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Okay, so we're at the 0.082" gas port diameter.  5.6oz buffer that 2.500" long inside a 7.000" receiver extension.  Sprinco Orange spring.  Recoil system should be good to go.

Let's refresh everything here on Page 3.  Adjustable gas block, or no"  Where's it set at, during function testing right now?  Should be wide open.

What's the story on the bolt catch?  What are you running for a bolt catch?  10B can make the BCG drag, in a DPMS-based build.  What's in there now?

Post a picture of where the gas tube ends in the upper receiver.  There's never been confirmation of this, yet.  Take out the BCG, take a pic down into the bottom of the upper, and show where the gas tube is sitting.

You running adjustable gas block?  Or a standard gas block, non-adjustable?

We need to get this thing solved, and running.  That info I'm requesting above it pretty important, in that step, towards making a running gun...  

No adjustable gas block installed yet. Have the adjustable but not installed.

Standard gas block.

Battle Arm 308 Enhanced Bolt Catch (See attached pics) Have not received the 10B yet, and the 10A is backorder, so no order yet. I have a lot of bolt catches, mainly aero precision, pretty much the standard that comes with the 308 Lower Parts kits.

22-250-2.pdf

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On 12/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, 98Z5V said:

With that barrel combination, I'm seriously estimating that you'd need a gas port around 0.060" for that barrel config and caliber.  There's no shrinking the gas port diameter, so it's time to buy a good adjustable gas block.

Here's what we're dealing with...  above ^^^

On 12/27/2022 at 7:16 PM, 98Z5V said:

Now, here's what I think is going on with your gun...   That thing is a speed demon.  That BCG is hauling some serious ass, because it's WAY overgassed, AND it's under-recoiled.

^^^  That's why it's still happening.  Recoil system is fixed now, but that 0.082" gas port diameter need to be about a 0.060" gas port diameter - and we can't fix that with recoil system alone.  Maybe - maybe - stepping up to a heavy buffer from Slash at around 8.50z buffer weight would help?  Maybe?

You gotta get that adjustable gas block on there, and dial that shiit down.  DOWN.  one click at a time. 

Like I said before in this thread - there's nothing we can do to shrink a gas port.  We can always make them bigger, but there's no going back. 

THAT is what's happening right now.  100% guaranteed.

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Man, I said that on 27 December, adjustable gas block, gas port is way too large.  It's 2.5 weeks later, and you shot it, came back with more functional diagnosis issues...

You applied 1/2 the band-aid to the cut, here.  You did the recoil system stuff.  The other half of the cut is still bleeding, and we're stuck here reading, trying to figure out why...  

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11 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Man, I said that on 27 December, adjustable gas block, gas port is way too large.  It's 2.5 weeks later, and you shot it, came back with more functional diagnosis issues...

You applied 1/2 the band-aid to the cut, here.  You did the recoil system stuff.  The other half of the cut is still bleeding, and we're stuck here reading, trying to figure out why...  

Sorry about that, but I travel a lot for work, and just received the gas block maybe a week ago. I get in what I can when I am home. I will install the gas block tomorrow, hopefully get over to the range as well. 

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2 minutes ago, Steve S said:

Sorry about that, but I travel a lot for work, and just received the gas block maybe a week ago. I get in what I can when I am home. I will install the gas block tomorrow, hopefully get over to the range as well. 

The hard part here is - the recommendation was given.  The gas port size was identified, way earlier.  You didn't apply the recommandation, though you received the gas block a week ago, but you shot the gun today.  You posted 3 hours ago that you shot the gun today.

The hard part here is helping people.  You advise, do what you can. Tell them what you think, based on years of experience, countless rounds down range, multiple calibers to fine tune over the years, and decades of gas-gun time behind the trigger.  The money...   just the money involved with doing this, well, since 1985 for me - back when I wasn't paying for it.  I've been paying for it since 2007, though.  The dedication to being able to fix one's gun problems - over the internet - has been fine-tuned here.  We can do it.  We've proved we can do it, and have the results to back it all up.

It's just hard getting back in here today, reading your functional issues, and finding out that you didn't follow the recommendations previously.  And, then, still try to diagnose the gun issue. 

It wasn't until I specifically asked you about the adjustable gas block, that you mentioned anything about not installing it.

This, right here, is exactly why we have the Waterboarding thread in the first place.

This one:

 

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