Range report after 168 Amax and CFE 223 / chrono

[NoFail]

I just got home. I have lots of velocity data I need to put down here but need to settle myself down and try and do at least half decent report for you all.

But I am excited to say that in my 16" .308 I saw groups with what I think are great velocities. I'll try and report like seasprite did. How about 47.1 gn CFE @ like 2660 or so average? That was what I started with...

I chrono'd same bullet with 43.5 gn IMR 4064 and averaged like 2500 FPS, that surprised me a lot, figured way less than that before chrono.

Give me time I'll work on your report....... :)

[NoFail]

OK I'm chilled now had a nice nap. It's late but i have energy.

To start off the first two groups I liked the velocities coming out of the 16" JP match barrel. But I have to say the Winchester brass heads were lot's of times coming out messed up. One was kinda chewed, and several had extractor marks. This had me worried and it crossed my mind to seriously stop right there. but i decided to try one more group and that one improved a whole lot. Out of all the groups charged with the CFE223 there were no bad pressure signs having to do with the primer, albeit sometimes a little cratering around the firing pin whole, sometimes I would see the slight presence of ejector mark, but nothing else. I pressed on and shot it all. One thing I don't like is most of the ES's. You will see what I mean.

I used our new PACT Professional XP Chronograph my Bro in-law and I went in on together. It does lots of things and I have not yet learned everything about how to operate all functions but got enough to get somewhere today. It has a printer. I am posting pics of the printouts to make it all easy to follow here, plus it's really cool  <thumbsup>

So here is all the data. I'm just going to let it speak for itself, should be self explanatory, I guess.

EDIT:

Load info

Hornady AMAX 168 grain

Winchester case

Remington #9 1/2 LRP

Powder, Hodgdon CFE223 (later data on IMR 4064)

2.800"

No Crimp

END EDIT

[NoFail]

I had a group loaded with 47.7 gn Hodgdon CFE223 but I don't have the printout. My brother in-law asked me if he can shoot one of my groups out of his SR25. He has one of the original from Knight's from when they were using barrels from Remington. His is a Remington 24" bull. He has the printout, I wish i would have thought to print another so i could show you what that group did. I do have a pic of the target I will post in a minute. But I kid you not, his group averaged over 2900 FPS, 168 gn AMAX!!! We think it was a little too hot in his gun and I saw some mushrooming in some primers, I think that's what it was. Never saw that in mine even with the hottest ones I had, which were hotter. But his group was better than any of mine, which kinda suck....

More printouts:

[NoFail]

That was it for the CFE. but I did bring some loads I did with IMR 4064, 168 gn AMAX @ 2.800 COAL all verified with caliper, Winchester brass all weight sorted & Remington # 9 1/2 primers. By the way those are all the same components i used with the CFE233 rounds i did, don't think I mentioned that above.

Look closely at this first one with the IMR 4064 43.5 gn. Now I like that ES!!! Beats me why the others were no where near that one  <dontknow>

IMR 4064 printouts:

[NoFail]

Now the target pics: All the dots are 2"

[NoFail]

After my first 4 groups the next one blew up bad, you will see in the first pic here. So I cleaned my barrel and it got better. after that the rest are the 4064 charges.

[NoFail]

This is about the average I am able to shoot as far as how those holes in the paper end up. I really feel that the gun is better than that. The scope is just a 6x and it's FFP. At 6x this particular reticule is a bit too thick for precision. I have another 6x FFP coming and the reticule specs and the reticule design should make for some improvement but not like a scope better suited for this stuff, of course I did want that type of scope for a different purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if i get a low end 10x or something if I wanna really shine more just at the range. But a lot of it, probably most of it is me. I darned well know when I yank one and I think I do it a lot. More trigger time so I can learn how to drive this thing. But as for the trigger it is awesome.

[NoFail]

Here's a new goodie we just got too

[seasprite]

Very nice report nofail <thumbsup> I just figured out my load for the cfe 223 and the 168 Amax but after seeing your numbers for the 47.1gr I'm wondering if I should developed that charge weight and run it across the crony I only did the 47.9-48gr across once I found my OCW for this combo that I'm running. I had an accuracy node come in at 47.1gr and then again at 48gr would you say yours is the same or different? Once you pick a charge weight are you going to very seating depth? My accuracy nodes came in at 2.815"and then again at 2.790" at 2.785" I had high pressure signs so keep this in mind when test for seating depth. To find out how long I could seat them out I pushed the mag follower down and measured the internal length then took .003-.005 off of that for feeding reliability. Can't wait to see your next report noFail good luck.

[unforgiven]

Good job on report brother NoFail. <thumbsup>

[NoFail]

Very nice report nofail <thumbsup> I just figured out my load for the cfe 223 and the 168 Amax but after seeing your numbers for the 47.1gr I'm wondering if I should developed that charge weight and run it across the crony I only did the 47.9-48gr across once I found my OCW for this combo that I'm running. I had an accuracy node come in at 47.1gr and then again at 48gr would you say yours is the same or different? Once you pick a charge weight are you going to very seating depth? My accuracy nodes came in at 2.815"and then again at 2.790" at 2.785" I had high pressure signs so keep this in mind when test for seating depth. To find out how long I could seat them out I pushed the mag follower down and measured the internal length then took .003-.005 off of that for feeding reliability. Can't wait to see your next report noFail good luck.

Thanks seasprite, I was hoping you would find this soon  <thumbsup>

I don't think I've settled on anything yet, I have not digested it all and not really sure if I saw any groups tightening up anywhere, but maybe that 48.1 gn CFE looks a little better somehow as far as the grouping? I have to take another look here. From 47.1 gn to 48.3 gn there is not really a dramatic increase in velocities, maybe about 40 FPS or so. I'm not going to go any higher because I don't feel comfortable with any more pressure at all. I think a good idea would be in the other direction below 47.1 gn and see what happens. When I fired the first shot with 47.1 gn CFE and looked at the chrono read out it blew me, and my bro in-law, away. We weren't expecting that much velocity from the get go out of my 16". And when he shot the 47.7 charge weight out of his 24" SR25 and averaged 2898 FPS and a SD of 17.1, he showed pressure signs with the primers bulging a bit. I will be more comfy going the other way with this powder. I don't know if I'll do anything with seating depth. Like you say going a little deeper could be provoking pressure. And I can't go any further than 2820" COAL with my Pmags, as you know. But I will make them all consistently 2800" or consistent wherever I put them. I think the main thing is powder and bullet and how well/consistent you prepare them. I want to try other bullets & weights. I think 175 SMK & 178 AMAX, and 155 scenar. Try some RL15 or something else. I dunno lots to think about........

[NoFail]

Good job on report brother NoFail. <thumbsup>

Thanks bro!!!  :)

[MikedaddyH]

Great info No Fail !

So your accuracy nodes are 47.1 gr and 2.790" for CFE.

When you clean your BCG could you post / give a comparsion to another powder that you use ?  If it is cleaner or dirtier than ( Varget ).

Thanks,

Mike H

[seasprite]

I think you should try the seating depth change you might be surprised at how your groups come together. If your uncomfortable going below 2.800" then don't, but you should try 2.805,2.810 and 2.815 and see if you find a sweet spot for that barrel. What was your current test depth I'm thinking you said 2.800" but I can't remember.

[NoFail]

I think you should try the seating depth change you might be surprised at how your groups come together. If your uncomfortable going below 2.800" then don't, but you should try 2.805,2.810 and 2.815 and see if you find a sweet spot for that barrel. What was your current test depth I'm thinking you said 2.800" but I can't remember.

yes 2.800 and all verified with caliper. I would try 2.815 like you said you like

[survivalshop]

Ya have to remember that all chambers are different & don't expect you loads to perform in another chamber ( could be tighter or looser or at a different head space or longer or shorter free bore to the lands, not to mention barrel length )

I like the results you'all are getting with that powder , going to have to try some . I only care about the SD ,because that shows consistency of your reloading techniques, you will always have spreads , its not a perfect science.

If you feel you are not tightening your groups with the adj. you are making , try a different bullet /brand  , primer , you will find a bullet that your barrel likes , that's the kick of hand loading .

Is that a Forster die ? I'm jealous , damn it , I need one in 308 & .223.

[seasprite]

Ya have to remember that all chambers are different & don't expect you loads to perform in another chamber ( could be tighter or looser or at a different head space or longer or shorter free bore to the lands, not to mention barrel length )

I like the results you'all are getting with that powder , going to have to try some . I only care about the SD ,because that shows consistency of your reloading techniques, you will always have spreads , its not a perfect science.

If you feel you are not tightening your groups with the adj. you are making , try a different bullet /brand  , primer , you will find a bullet that your barrel likes , that's the kick of hand loading .

Is that a Forster die ? I'm jealous , damn it , I need one in 308 & .223.

This why I feel he should try some different seating depths so he can find the timing for his barrel odds are its going to different than mine.

And yea thats one sweet looking die <thumbsup>

Oh by the way my barrel is an DPMS 7.62 NATO chamber with 1:10 twist can't remember the type of rifling it has probably button but don't quote me on that ;)

[NoFail]

Great info No Fail !

So your accuracy nodes are 47.1 gr and 2.790" for CFE.

When you clean your BCG could you post / give a comparsion to another powder that you use ?  If it is cleaner or dirtier than ( Varget ).

Thanks,

Mike H

Mike, they are all seated to 2.800". Now won't be a good time for comparing bolt crud because I shot some other powder through it after the CFE.. I try to remember though.

[NoFail]

Survivalshop, yes it's a Forster, both of those are. But I love that seater die it makes it sooooo much easier to find your depth.

Yeah I'm thinking of trying SMK 175's and 178 Amax's I. Future. Someone in my ear is telling me to try 155 scenars too. My barrel 10 twist JP match cryogenic I think it's a button rifling too. Someone said JP uses Wilson blanks  <dontknow>

Okay you guys talked me into it. I'll do some comps with different seating depths, after all I do have the Forster

now. Okay I'll try 2.790 up too 2.815. I will use the low node. I think I saw a good one at 48.1 gn too but I don't want to mess with that pressure right now, if at all. Well maybe, heck those were good velocities for a 16".

[NoFail]

Here's a cool thing that that chrono does. It is a balistic calculator. All you need to know is the distance of your sight to the muzzle bore, the velocity of your load & the BC of the bullet. It has over 800 bullet types stored in there.

I entered the info from a group I shot yesterday using IMR 4064, 168 Amax and a average velocity of 2498. Then it asks what kind of ranging, like Point Blank or Zero Range, I said zero range. It asks what distance like starting at 100 & ending I said 500. It calculates bullet drop and velocity at a given range.

here is what it does for you :)

[seasprite]

Happy Independence Day guy's even with our problems we still live in the best country in the world <thumbsup>

NoFail, If you want to try this you can reduce your charge weight by 0.1gr-0.2gr and you should still have good groupings with a little less pressure. The reason I say this is if I found a true OCW the charge weights should be good across many different firearms same as Federals Gold Metal match. The only problem I see is the different brass were using but your results are showing to be pretty close to mine.

Check out this site: optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

You probably know this already but for safety sake I feel its worth mentioning. When you test your loads start with 2.815 and work your way down looking for pressure after each group. I don't want to insult your intelligence or anything its just this is a new powder with not much info out there yet. :happydrunks: Were kinda blazing the way for other people see with this powder.

[NoFail]

Happy Independence Day guy's even with our problems we still live in the best country in the world <thumbsup>

NoFail, If you want to try this you can reduce your charge weight by 0.1gr-0.2gr and you should still have good groupings with a little less pressure. The reason I say this is if I found a true OCW the charge weights should be good across many different firearms same as Federals Gold Metal match. The only problem I see is the different brass were using but your results are showing to be pretty close to mine.

Check out this site: optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

You probably know this already but for safety sake I feel its worth mentioning. When you test your loads start with 2.815 and work your way down looking for pressure after each group. I don't want to insult your intelligence or anything its just this is a new powder with not much info out there yet. :happydrunks: Were kinda blazing the way for other people see with this powder.

seasprite OMG I dunno if it would have occurred to me to fire them in that order, 2.815 on down to 2.790. Wow I hope I woulda, LoL!!!

You know what I was looking at my brass last night. After I shoot a group I replace brass in the box the way I they were sorted for load before I fire them, so I know what they were for inspection later. The ones used in the upper charge weights look great, better than the lowest charge weights. Maybe I'll just do the 48.1 grain node afterall, or just 48?

Thank You seasprite, have a good 4th, have a good 4th everyone.

[NoFail]

Went to range with 25 rounds I loaded CFE 47.1 grains for bullet seating depth ladder test & another 25 rounds CFE 48.1 grains bullet seating depth ladder test.

First 25 rounds with 47.1 grains CFE groupings sucked.

Cleaned barrel and started with 48.1 grains CFE. Shot one round, shot next round primer came out of pocket. Fished primer out and at that time cease fire called. While waiting I decided to pack it up. I knew there was a few more primers that weren't as tight as normal when using the hand primer press. Thought it prudent to quit right then and there.

Nothing was going right, chrono not reading right. When I broke it down I think I noticed I didnt have the sensors at the correct distance from each other, not sure though.

First two groups of 47.1 grains powder I didn't use sand bags, realized I better use them cause I was shaky today.

I'm going to pull all the remaining rounds and start over. I think I'm going to poop can all that brass and get new Winchester. I need a new bulk supply anyway. I have 3 & 4 loadings on those ones in question and I can't trust them after today. Should have gave up on the ones with loose primers in the first place but now I don't know which ones they were, so there is one mistake right there. Go ahead and stick with loose primer pockets, loose ones in your chamber. Loose one in your chamber, get a FTE/FTF. Get a FTE/FTF, mess up and loose the polymer tip of your incoming Amax. Mess up and loose the polymer tip of your Amax, go full auto if you decide to shoot anyway. Don't decide to shoot anyway and go full auto <munch>

No pressure signs on anything I shot.

[seasprite]

Sorry to hear of your bad day NoFail, I've got 5 pieces of brass that have loose primer pockets but like you it was to late to do anything about it. I think these were the ones that I had high pressure on when I did my seating test since there was only 5. They felt to easy going in but I loaded them anyway because I have no way to decap them unless I send them through the sizing die again and I don't want to over work the brass. I've lost some primers when I was using the Winchester brand and found out that they run smaller than other brands and seated loose in once fired brass so I switched to CCI and haven't had a problem since except for the 5 high pressure ones.

So this has me thinking if your brass is not showing signs of case head separation you might try Wolf or Tula primer to get another loading or 2 out of them but you have to be sure your brass is not fatigued. By checking with a paper clip you feel inside  of the case for signs that your brass is at the end of its life usually a groove where the case body and web meet. If you feel a groove anywhere inside scrap it.

As far as starting over how far back? If your going to start with your powder charges again try this and see if it works for you. Hodgkin's list CFE 223 starting at 46.6gr and max at 49gr for the 168gr bullet(you'll never get to the max) Load 3 at 46.6 then 3 at 46.9, 3@47.2, 3@47.5 and so on up to 49gr.

As far as seating depth goes load them all at 2.815" this way when you do your seating depth test you'll be as long as the mags will let you and the only thing left is to go deeper but thats later back to the task at hand and that finding your optimal powder charge.

When you go back to the range shoot a couple of foulers and sighters you can make up some extra rounds at the beginning charge weight for this. Then you can either do the round robin method or 3 shot groups I did the 3 shot groups method due to the way our range is ran. The round robin is you take 1 shot at with 46.6gr load at one target then you go on to another target and shoot 46.9 and so on while looking for signs of pressure and you will hit pressure before get to the 49gr loads but its best to make up the whole load range and then pull later. By the time your done you will have around 7 targets with 3 shot groups on them. After that post pics of your targets and we'll see where your OCW is. If this is clear as mud let me know and I try to explain it better.

[98Z5V]

^^^ That is a damn good procedure - that's awesome info, man.  <thumbsup>

If you don't mind, I'm stealing that technique.  <laughs>