N Jensen Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 In an effort to make the action super smooth. I removed the gas rings and welded the slot for the rings up. Then machined the area back down to a .001 slip fit into the bolt carrier. When holding the upper assy by itself the BCG will lock and unlock under its own weight by moving the muzzle slightly up or down. The action cycles just fine with no issues. I even installed a adj gas block and heavy buffer spring. The gas system pressure was cut down per the instructions and still the action cycles just fine. I have noticed an increase in accuracy at longer ranges as well. There is a slight dusting of fouling fwd of the gas ring after shooting 100 rounds. Even after shooting the 100 rounds the action moved just as freely as when it was clean. Been shooting this mod in a LR308 and a LR 6.5 creedmoor. So far I have been very happy with the accuracy increase as well. My LR 6.5 shot a 200-13X at 600yds. I have also cleaned the 600yd target with the LR 308 as well, I could not do this before I did the mod. I'm sure many will think the idea isn't good for a variety of reasons. Based on my experience in HP when a AR has vertical stringing it is usually because the BCG is not clean and well lubricated. If you are willing to try it, I like to hear from you. Also I mod a AR 15 Bolt as well and the action cycled just fine as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 <munch> Would the 1 piece gas ring offer any advantages just shy of you'r modification brother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Jensen Posted January 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 I was using 4350H in my 6.5 and after shooting short range and before 600yd line I could tell the action was sticky/binding when try to unlock it then when it was perfectly clean at the start of the rifle match. I don't think a one piece gas ring would solve the problem. My reasoning is if the action was super smooth without any fouling being added after more and more shooting was done the rifle would unlock the same each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 You got something there brother,because of any acumulation of carbon in a one piece ring where there are still slight crevices Vs. solid ? You might be able to get a design patent on that.I would use it. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackleberry2000 Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 Remember the gas rings act like piston rings. They do wear out. With a solid bolt you will be increasing the wear on the bolt and the carrier. Just my 2cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 What is the life of a bolt? Are the rings harder than the chrome lineing of carrier? Is the now solid bolt harder than the chrome lineing of carrier?Depending on how hard you run piston, rings can have a long life or a short life. <munch> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Jensen Posted January 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I've shot enough ammo now to tell you I have stop looking for any abnormal wear patterns. Also I checked for binding with a fired case inserted into the chamber and the bolt closed on it. With the upper by itself, I could easily move the carrier back and forth between fully fwd and to the ramp to unlock the bolt. With the high pressure gas entering the chamber area, the little bit of gas leaking by the piston would center it. I assuming it does anyway. The bolt was welded up with a stainless steel wire welder. The machined back down to a slip fit of .001. The dia of the piston increases by about .007. I have not tired to shoot ammo that has the minimum recommended powder charges, only near max loads. Also I did modify a AR 15 bolt and shot the following ammo through it without any problems, 55g ball, 77g LC LR, 69g Fed match, Black hills 77g and 80g match ammo. Yes I did send a US patent application in, it will take a year to find out if they decide if it's a improvement to the original design or not. Except for some fouling going fwd of the gas piston which cleans up easily, I have not seen any problems so far. I even tested 600 yd ammo after the 66 short range ammo was fired to foul the gas rings. When comparing 2ea ten shot strings modified bolt against and two ten shot strings with unmodified bolt. The ammo tested better with the modified bolt, the difference between the Hi, Low, Avg, ES, SD were a lot better than the bolt with gas rings. It was measurable and the results shooting at 600yds is better. I could clean the 600yd stage now when before I never could. I think I'm the only person to consider it and try it. If I find the gunsmith web page I will post it. He's a certified Acft welder, knows what he is doing besides being a gunsmith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 <munch> ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Remember the gas rings act like piston rings. They do wear out. With a solid bolt you will be increasing the wear on the bolt and the carrier. Just my 2cents worth.I would much rather change out worn out gas rings than entire BCG . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I would much rather change out worn out gas rings than entire BCG .Especially right now - and probably in the future.I can understand this, from an accuracy-standpoint. I get it. However, from a reliability or longevity standpoint, it doesn't make sense. I'd like to know how this affects the BCG (complete) over a long period of time - what kind of wear you're going to have, and what you'll have to do about it at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Maybe if brother Jensen,could establish a round count relative to the wear on the carrier and bolt.That would be critical information.I might suggest the chrome lining would be harder than the bolt,but then the use of stainless wire <dontknow> stainless is a hard alloy also. <dontknow> Great thread.Also if you are wiping the bolt with CLP or something of that type the lube I would think might mitigate wear to some degree.That is just MHO from a mechanical view. <dontknow> <munch> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Jensen Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Abnormal wear, haven't seen anything yet and I stopped looking. I probably have a good 500 rounds through the 6.5 and about the same through the 308 upper. The AR 15 bolt has maybe 400 or so rounds through it. I sent the AR 15 BCG to a friend in FL to try out for awhile. I just don't see any binding at all, like I posted before with a fired case in the chamber and bolt closed. I could feel play in the bolt carrier and it moved slightly back in forth with no drag. I will assume that machine work for the rails in the upper is true/square with the machine work for the barrel nut and barrel extension. I know there will be people who don't think the idea is not worth while for a number of reasons. When I passed the idea by my shooting buddies, they all said it wouldn't work. I looked at the M 14 gas system and the piston and thought the same principle would work. Anyway, I'm on my way to Djibouti for 5 months, so no shooting for me. I still check the board when I have the time. Take care for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Have a safe trip brother.See you soon. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 The gas rings do multiple things , they do some what seal the propellent gases from the chamber area, as do piston rings in an internal combustion engine , how would an engine run with out them & what kind of crap would be in the oil pan/oil ? They also seal the area behind them to permit the propellent gases to move the bolt carrier & the bolt rearward for extraction of the fired case. ( this is why some say a DI system, is a piston system )It is a timing thing as far as bolt travel & unlocking . The gas rings do have a part in all this .I have heard of people leaving them out entirely , but ya never hear back , of long term complications , if any .Be safe & ya could of left them with one of us to keep the round count up for testing . <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I don't have a clue about accurizing or gunsmithing. All I know is that for moving parts, you have to have a sacrificial part. That is the gas ring. It is the cheap easy repalcable part instead of replacing bolt, or carrier. In this case, it will require a rewelding and machining to get it back to that .001. It isn't a matter if it will wear, it is a matter of when. Obviously, if you do not mind building it back up and machining it down every few thousand rounds, no big deal.The other part is the material you are using. If you are not going to have scarificial rings... you still need sacrificial metal. You have to replace the rings with a metal softer than the bolt carrier. You WANT the bolt piston to wear because that is the easiest to repair. Last... the rings also catch and keep oil. So the action will stay lubricated longer. With it being solid, all it does is wipe a clean area, and leave the distance unlubricated. All that does is accelerate wear. It's something you can accept because you can repair it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 I don't have a clue about accurizing or gunsmithing. All I know is that for moving parts, you have to have a sacrificial part. That is the gas ring. It is the cheap easy repalcable part instead of replacing bolt, or carrier. In this case, it will require a rewelding and machining to get it back to that .001. It isn't a matter if it will wear, it is a matter of when. Obviously, if you do not mind building it back up and machining it down every few thousand rounds, no big deal.The other part is the material you are using. If you are not going to have scarificial rings... you still need sacrificial metal. You have to replace the rings with a metal softer than the bolt carrier. You WANT the bolt piston to wear because that is the easiest to repair. Last... the rings also catch and keep oil. So the action will stay lubricated longer. With it being solid, all it does is wipe a clean area, and leave the distance unlubricated. All that does is accelerate wear. It's something you can accept because you can repair it.A barrel is a wear item too, how many do expect to have to replace in your lifetime? It's all relative brother... <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Totally agree. If he gets 1-2-3 thousand rounds out of the part and does not mind repairing it... it's all good.I would only sugest using a softer metal. And after welding up the cavity, you could cut a small goove to keep some oil in... but it would be pretty hard to determine the effectivness of that. Lots of rounds and determining wear patterns of both. And it does not sound like he has bad wear doing what he is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigOK Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 this is a fascinating idea and maybe it is doomed to a life of constant reworking, maybe not. They have come a long way with lubricants- for those of you still using CLP it burns off long before 1000 rounds so you have no lube. What if he used Slip2000 EWL and the whole thing stayed wet? Or used another form like Kroil- which seeps down into the tiniest places. Even if it does only last a few thousand rounds could it not be used to shoot the 600 and 1k stages in a match? **I don't know if they allow you to swap bolts...**Then again it could be a placebo effect. Get a good lube. Keep firing.stay safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Jensen Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 I said before I haven't seen any wear on the new machines surface nor in the BC. When the high pressure gas enters the cavity, it would leak by the small area between the two parts. I think when this happens, the high pressure gas provides a cushion of air around the piston and not letting it touch the wall inside the BC. The original patent drawings showed that the small dip after the gas rings was to allow powder residue to collect there. Is it possible it was designed without gas rings and the gas rings were then later designed into it as the military wanted it that way? Just a thought, I still have several months to go before I leave Djibouti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 How's the weather??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Jensen Posted February 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2013 Djibouti, the horn of Africa from what I have seen is one very poor country. VERY hot in the summer I have been told, right now in the 80's. The wind always blows in from the ocean in the afternoon and is dead calm at night. Big refuge camp not far from the city along a dirt road to an alternate airfield. The Navy runs the base, speed limit is exactly 6 mph on base no exceptions traffic court every Monday, passengers in the back of a gator is not allowed. One must stop for 3 sec, not anything less at a stop sign before proceeding. No excuse for parking permit not displayed correctly. Other than that, 2 beers are available each night at the 11 degrees North Club. They don't keep count, not bad otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 17, 2013 Report Share Posted February 17, 2013 ^^^ Sounds like there's alot of Officers that don't have anything better to do than make up dumbass regs. After I left A-Stan, I heard about some of the stupid poop that they came up with over there, like lots of people getting tickets for bicycle traffic violations, uniform violations, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted February 17, 2013 Report Share Posted February 17, 2013 Thanks for the reply brother,be safe. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cz777 Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Remember the gas rings act like piston rings. They do wear out. With a solid bolt you will be increasing the wear on the bolt and the carrier. Just my 2cents worth. plus the welding will draw the harding out and make things more brittle .....not worth it ...use of synthetic oil like Mobil 1 will help ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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