greenmist Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 If your LE agency wants an MRAP get your app in quick. Wisconsin to get 24 of em... http://www.wpr.org/wisconsin-police-departments-apply-behemoth-military-vehicles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I hope they have a good service unit in their motorpools and plenty of money for soon-to-be obsolete parts. No such thing as a free lunch. In the end, they will cost more in upkeep than a new Rhino or Bear Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Mist I had a discussion with a friend who is Janesville Pd about this when rock? Or Jefferson got there's. He gave me this unit woulda saved an officers life I. The Milwaukee area had they had an officer shot and no one could get to him and he died. Very unfortunate incident but I still don't think it justifies a military grade unit for pd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 These units are taking them because they are dirt cheap and they mistakenly believe these are a one for one alternative to the commercially available armored vehicles. People who have worked and fought around these things will tell you that they are not a jack of all trades armored vehicle. I believe they are a temporary cost saving measure, but the 5 and 10 year operating cost of these things will have these departments regretting this acquisition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra644 Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I'll take a bear cat anyday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Mist I had a discussion with a friend who is Janesville Pd about this when rock? Or Jefferson got there's. He gave me this unit woulda saved an officers life I. The Milwaukee area had they had an officer shot and no one could get to him and he died. Very unfortunate incident but I still don't think it justifies a military grade unit for pd Right, I think we dumped like $180,000 into a used unit which is essentially just useful for a barricaded subject. However, at some point you still have to talk to the subject and get out of the unit. Therein lies the rub; put so much armor around guys and they don't WANT to get out of the unit to do the work. We can talk any Council or Board into monstrous purchases with the " If we save just one life..." mantra, for weapons, buildings, Tac B.S...In the last 5 years there's been a serious uptick on foreign terrorism deep in our interior, but as usual that has solutions in intelligence informations. Not big trucks. It'll be interesting to watch how people react to seeing units they have only seen on TV, over there...Anybody hear how many are available to your states? I'm trying to figure where WI NEEDS 24 of these things. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 2 to use and 22 to pull parts off to keep the two in service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Right, I think we dumped like $180,000 into a used unit which is essentially just useful for a barricaded subject. However, at some point you still have to talk to the subject and get out of the unit. Therein lies the rub; put so much armor around guys and they don't WANT to get out of the unit to do the work. .. That's not a fair statement. It's not a matter of want to. It makes more sense not to leave cover unless there is a operational/tactical need to do so. Armor has its place in civilian LE outside of just delivering officers. We don't want officers getting shot while in the performance of their duties just as we want to be able evac casualties (civilian, subject, and LEO) safely. Edited April 19, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 2 to use and 22 to pull parts off to keep the two in service. Kinda like Cannondale quads....Tom will know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 I wonder if Sheriff Joe's on the waiting list for one (or more) of them..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 IIRC, WI only has about 5.5 million people, mostly in Milwaukee and Madison. Most cities already have a designated SWAT/SRT vehicle w/ command units. I wonder how/who figured out the numbers available per state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Thought this was fitting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Thought this was fitting Hell yeah. I don't think parts/service will be a problem here in WI, but I wouldn't wanna be more than 500 miles from the factory. Why not just hire an extra 500 Border Patrol Officers to man these down on the Border? Target practice, field work, border control, take "the fence" money and turn it into a job station? We could put all of WI's 24 on the border with FIB-land I guess, monitoring truck traffic that's hauling illegals and their heroin? If you're gonna bring in this kind of hardware just go balls to the wall and do it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 BP was too far down the line. There won't be any left after the BLM order ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra644 Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 So may I ask a question that may make me a little unpopular? For those of you who dont know much about LEO or SWAT other than what you think you know and see on t.v. are you aware that these guys that make meth and or have drug houses, booby trap them and like to dabble with making i.e.d. as well as Meth labs being very explosive themselves? They also fortify the houses to where a standard ram wont open the door, and on a meth lab not a good idea to use explosive breeching. These same bad guys that like to do this also have access to various stolen weapons and straw purcashes such as semi-auto AK variants ect. Bad guys play COD and watch tv as well. they have look outs and like to take shots at the cops if they can. These units are also designed to help redirect overpressure from a i.e.d. and they have a air supply for the guys inside. So when you call us to take out the trash, and see that we SWAT guys don't have the equiptment to do that, or you see us getting killed and saying what a shame, they should have had, oh wait never mind. How would you feel if you heard about me or another member getting killed because of you not wanting us to have the equiptment we need? DMRO costs the tax payers, being all of us less money and there isnt always grant money availible. Remember your local cops aren't the ones that institute martial law or are trying to limit your rights we just try to do a job that everyone thinks they can do or do better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 I look at it as a tool,like any tool it can be used correctly or abused and used incorrectly.If this is what needed so you can come home safe and in one piece get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Remember your local cops aren't the ones that institute martial law or are trying to limit your rights we just try to do a job that everyone thinks they can do or do better. Statement of the year right there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 So may I ask a question that may make me a little unpopular? How would you feel if you heard about me or another member getting killed because of you not wanting us to have the equiptment we need? I missed your actual question-got your point but missed the question.... Yeah, I've been there done that, without an MRAP or team losses. So far. As I said, I can get any Council or Board to consider equipment purchases under that argument point, no matter how UN-realistic that debate point may be. Nobody, on any council or board, wants to be perceived as THAT GUY who wants to see our cops get wasted. How long before an actual tank is "acceptable"? IIRC, we had MRAP patrols in the Boston area last spring with a top-gunner on a 240, during a "shelter in place" (martial law) search. The FAA has approved almost 15,000 drone permits for LE use in the U.S., and O'Bummer has said we can now kill U.S. Civilians w/o due process. (Or actually presenting evidence, after the fact.) This is one step beyond, IMO. I hate hearing when a brother/sister hits EOW. I signed up for it, and I'll admit it, for me it's a rush. I hate body bags, but I really don't see MRAPs decreasing the number of body bags we're handling-yet. Now, timing and location is everything : Chicago / Detroit / L.A.? Send em whatever they need. >:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) So may I ask a question that may make me a little unpopular? For those of you who dont know much about LEO or SWAT other than what you think you know and see on t.v. are you aware that these guys that make meth and or have drug houses, booby trap them and like to dabble with making i.e.d. as well as Meth labs being very explosive themselves? They also fortify the houses to where a standard ram wont open the door, and on a meth lab not a good idea to use explosive breeching. These same bad guys that like to do this also have access to various stolen weapons and straw purcashes such as semi-auto AK variants ect. Bad guys play COD and watch tv as well. they have look outs and like to take shots at the cops if they can. These units are also designed to help redirect overpressure from a i.e.d. and they have a air supply for the guys inside. So when you call us to take out the trash, and see that we SWAT guys don't have the equiptment to do that, or you see us getting killed and saying what a shame, they should have had, oh wait never mind. How would you feel if you heard about me or another member getting killed because of you not wanting us to have the equiptment we need? DMRO costs the tax payers, being all of us less money and there isnt always grant money availible. Remember your local cops aren't the ones that institute martial law or are trying to limit your rights we just try to do a job that everyone thinks they can do or do better. Excellent post through and through. I will add that under State/Fed LE are not the ones who institute Martial Law or are limiting your rights. It is OUR Elected Officials and their Political Appointees. Furthermore, if people think that under Martial Law the Feds are the only ones that will be trashing our rights, then a little research will go a long way. Edited April 20, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) The MRAPs are a substitute for armored vehicles and cashed strapped departments foolishly believe they are a suitable exchange for commercial available tactical armored vehicles. I don't see people in an uproar over a Bearcat or any other commercial available armored vehicle. While it is true that the majority of tactical operations do not need an armor component, the ones that do will accept no substitute. If giving the opportunity to have armor in a high risk situation, I know of no sane or experienced mil/leo that will turn it down barring some very special circumstances. Edited April 20, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 If giving the opportunity to have armor in a high risk situation, I know of no sane or experienced mil/leo that will turn it down barring some very special circumstances. So you believe all MIL/LEO SOFs use MRAPs or other armored vehicles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Negative. That was the very special circumstances portion of the comment. I am aware of who most of the Cops and the couple of SOF guys are on this board and knew they would understand what I was saying. But, I stand by my statement. If the situation is where armor, cover, concealment, can be used to their advantage in a high risk situations, any group that enjoys surviving will employ it. Edited April 20, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Damn, I've been watching this topic closely, and I've been trying to stay out of it... Armored vehicles DEFINITELY have a role in Law Enforcement. In my opinion, only, the militarization of local police, from the smallest levels to the largest, is getting out of control. That's just my opinion, but it's happening more and more, even in the smallest, most remote departments. That CAN be an issue - it's all i the hand of the Chief, on how that equipment (and capabilities it brings) is used. Solely. However, armored vehicles - in many locations - are necessary. From the military side of the house, I've had my fair share of run-ins with meth labs and pot growers. In some cases, I can't even give details. In other cases, I've run across them actively brewing ON A MILITARY INSTALLATION, in very remote training areas - they think they're safe out there... I've been face-to-face with a group of people in the middle of a meth brew, and detained them until MPs arrive. I've stumbled through burned out labs, been exposed to the chemicals, all that. ON POST. I have many fireman friends that get sent into a structure fire - only to have the door they enter explode on them, and all over their bunkers. Some of my friends are fucked for life from this, even with oxygen on. There are definitely times when response in an armored vehicle is not only prudent by law enforcement - it's necessary for the protection of the LEOs. Wouldn't it have been nice for LAPD street cops to have an armored vehicle during the B-of-A robbery on 28 Feb , 1997? IMHO, armored vehicles were necessary then - $hit, all the steet cops had were pistols. They didn't even have rifles. Armored,... would have changed that scenario. Meth lab busts are another situation, barricaded crazy motherfuckers are another situation - especially if they're holding hostages. There are som many scenarios that put LE in a situation where armored vehicles would change the outcome of the situation. Might be a very small town police force, dozen people - do they need an armored vehicle? Depends... Are they in a small, rural METH HAVEN? They need it... Just the blanket statement I've made about the militarization of law enforcement, well... it's just a blanket statement. Most agencies don't need a metric $hit-ton of military gear to do their jobs. Most agencies aren't in the hostage-recovery game, or in the high-risk incident-response game. They probably don't need it, even though they're getting it. The capabilities have to fit most situations. If it's something out of their realm - that's what specialty teams are for. If armored vehicles are required, then there is no substitute for them. Militarily, I'm sure there are some people that don't have high-risk jobs - but they'd damn sure like to have all the gear that the guys in the high-risk units have - because that $hit is COOL! They'll never use it, but they can think they're a badass because they have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Most agencies aren't in the hostage-recovery game, or in the high-risk incident-response game. They probably don't need it, even though they're getting it. Although I agree with your post in its entirety, the stench of truth coming off this couldn't be ignored. Edited April 20, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 I forget the where, but the when was in the 1990s and a cop in a small southern town, like 15 officers, was taking advantage of a federal program which supplied surplus military equipment to police forces. Dude had multiple helicopters, a couple of APCs (M113 type), trucks, Humvees, etc. He was of the opinion it was better to get it than let it be scrapped. This is the same program but 20 years after I first saw it reported: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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