SaltyPilgrim Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 First post here, and really my first foray into the world of 308 ARs. Has anyone ever run an intermediate, not mid-length, on a 13.7"-14" barrel unsuppressed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 Not yet. Armalite AR-10 Carbine gas(longer than AR15 midlength) on a 13.5", though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff R Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 I have a 14.7" PSA upper with welded flash hider. It's on a matching PSA lower, with an A2 stock and DPMS buffer/spring. Runs flawlessly no matter what ammo I've ran thru it........Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Cliff R said: I have a 14.7" PSA upper with welded flash hider. It's on a matching PSA lower, with an A2 stock and DPMS buffer/spring. Runs flawlessly no matter what ammo I've ran thru it........Cliff But - what gas system?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyPilgrim Posted April 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 My main concern, which is the same as anyone else messing with gas systems, is dwell time. From doing some digging, it seems the Noveske intermediate system has the port 11.5" from the face of the receiver. Knowing that .308 has much more gas available and a slower overall velocity, theoretically there should be more leeway with having ~2.5" of barrel past the gas port. Does this hold water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 27 minutes ago, SaltyPilgrim said: My main concern, which is the same as anyone else messing with gas systems, is dwell time. From doing some digging, it seems the Noveske intermediate system has the port 11.5" from the face of the receiver. Knowing that .308 has much more gas available and a slower overall velocity, theoretically there should be more leeway with having ~2.5" of barrel past the gas port. Does this hold water? I'm all about dwell time - when so many overlook it in the gas system. Dwell time is what drives gas port diameters. Let's talk about that. It's the exact reason that 16" rifle-gas barrels need to have a port diameter of AT LEAST 0.105" - because of the short dwell time, and .308 Winchester pressures. The specific Noveske you're referencing, with port location 11.5" from the face of the receiver - what's the barrel length on that Noveske? Because that determines the true dwell time - gas port location to end of barrel, from end of barrel BACK to the gas port location. If you're not buying a Noveske N6 barrel, then none of this matters... I'm your huckleberry on this one man - fear me not. Let's get this info out in the open, because so many people don't even comprehend it. Break it open, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) Here's the shiit on the Noveske Intermediate Length: Quote The intermediate gas system length is specific to Noveske barrels and uppers, and will not work with mid-length gas systems. (Designed for Noveske 18" barrels with a 1" gas block.) Nobody in this industry uses a 1" gas block - but Noveske. Gas block diameter also is a major contributing factor in gas pressure - little known fact. If you're not going to use a Noveske 18" barrel with a 1" gas block diameter, then nothing in this discussion will pertain to anything that's commonly known on .308ARs. In your opening post, you're asking about 13.7~14" barrels. Noveske Intermediate Length Gas is already out the window, just on that... Edited April 8, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyPilgrim Posted April 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 Well I won't be purchasing a Noveske barrel. My pockets aren't that deep. Ranier Arms has a 16" intermediate with presumably the same dimensions as far as port placement. If guys can get dissipators to run in 5.56, why not the intermediate at 13.7, in .308? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, SaltyPilgrim said: If guys can get dissipators to run in 5.56, why not the intermediate at 13.7, in .308? It can be done no doubt, just doubt you will find details on the specs that make it run. You will have to trial and error it in there. I built a 12.5 inch 308 on a SIG 716 barrel. Needed an 11 inch gas tube to make it work. I think I put the gas block size and port size in the build thread. Edited April 8, 2019 by jtallen83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyPilgrim Posted April 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2019 OP here, After some more digging, Wilson Combat lists the Intermediate Gas system on a 14.7" inch barrel. I'd imagine that's about as short as possible for that system, otherwise WC wouldn't make it. Guess I'll just go with a 13.7" mid-length. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 9, 2019 Report Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, SaltyPilgrim said: OP here, After some more digging, Wilson Combat lists the Intermediate Gas system on a 14.7" inch barrel. Better buy the gas tube right from them, then. I've seen a few now listed like that, with a gas tube length of 13.25". Get the gas tube with the barrel. Wilson Combat is one of the companies doing this "in-between" gas port distance drilling/location on most of their barrels. It's not AR15 gas port distances/locations, and it's not Armalite AR-10 gas port distances/locations. It's literally, "in -between" those two dimensions. I guess the industry mentality on this garbage is, "Works for most of the people, most of the time, with most of the ammo..." If it's listed as "mid-length" it is NOT midlength AR15 gas tubes - it's Armalite AR-10 Carbine gas tubes. If it's listed as "rifle length," it is NOT AR15 Rifle gas tubes -it's Armalite AR-10 Rifle gas tubes... On a Wilson Combat big-frame barrel, run the Armalite AR-10 gas tubes- and there are only two. The Armalite AR-10 Carbine gas tube is 12 1/16", and the Armalite AR-10 Rifle gas tube is 15.500" in length. This "intermidiate length" and being 13.25" is something VERY new from them. It doesn't match up to anything else out there, minus a custom gas tube from White Oak Armament. On that 14.7" Wilson Combat barrel, you will need the gas tube directly from them - and I'd love to see pics of this thing installed. That gas tube needs to end directly in the center of the cam pin cutout in the upper receiver, as you look down at the bottom of the upper receiver. I have two Wilson Combat barrels on this platform, 16" .338 Fed barrel (mid length, they said), and 20" .260 Rem barrel (rifle length, they said). Both required the Armalite AR-10 gas tubes. The info is out here on the board, as evidence. Of note, my .338 Fed just runs like a champ, but I will be drilling up the gas port diameter in my .260 Rem barrel from 0.070" that it came with, to 0.080" in the near future. What it came with is just not enough, it should have been bigger, from them. Edited April 9, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 9, 2019 Report Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) Of note, that thing is gonna need a gas port diameter close to or slightly over 0.100" in order to run right... I'll bet on that... That's inline with the old Fulton Armory 16" rifle gas barrels that Criterion made for them, with 0.105" gas port diameters - as far as dwell time goes. WC's 13.25" gas tube on a 14.7" barrel... One big difference between those two dwell times is gas block diameter - the WC is a 0.750" diameter, and the FA Criterion barrels were a 0.936" diameter - it's gonna be interesting to see what you come up with for a gas port diameter on this barrel... It might prove a point I've been trying to make lately... Gas block diameter matters in port sizing (barrel diameter at the gas block location)... Please report your results - so I don't have to buy another damn barrel... Edited April 9, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff R Posted April 9, 2019 Report Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) "But - what gas system?..." Stock from PSA, so no telling what the gas port diameter is, although I'd say it's adequate since it runs flawlessly. PSA has only offered this configuration once that I've seen. I grabbed one up, and by the time I told a good friend and fellow enthusiast about it they were gone. He actually placed an order and they called him and substituted an 18" set-up instead telling him they were out of stock by the time his order came in. Anyhow, so I can help out here with details I'll strip it down at some point and check the diameter. My feed ramps weren't cut with a chainsaw and they got the port diameter good enough it runs flawlessly with a wide variety of ammo, so probably worth the effort to get more intimate with it next time it's down for cleaning. Will measure the tube length protrusion as well. By visual it's a tad shorter than my DPMS by about .080-.100". Something else I'll get specifics on next time I've got it stripped down. Right now I'm so busy in the shop (typical for this time of year) I don't have time to reach around and scratch my ars. https://cliffshighperformance.com/ Plus I've been scrambling for the last 4 days to nail down a purchase on some property that's backed up to mine that became available. Been waiting for the old geezer in the nursing home to finally pass or decide to sell it, and it came up for sale last Tuesday without warning. Not buying it wasn't an option as it runs across the back of my property right where have the deer stands leading to my thicket, and on the business end of my shooting range, so letting someone else get it and put a house back there was NOT part of the equation. Good news is that I nailed it down, a bit costly but I'm licking my wounds a bit but returning to business as usual today, and moving a little slow this morning as I had to have Deb make me some Old Fashion's last night after we got in contract for the land behind us........yippie!........Cliff Edited April 9, 2019 by Cliff R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted April 9, 2019 Report Share Posted April 9, 2019 Congrats on so many levels of that post. Wounds heal. Control of your surroundings is priceless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted April 9, 2019 Report Share Posted April 9, 2019 Congrats cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted April 10, 2019 Report Share Posted April 10, 2019 Congratulations brother Cliff 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted April 10, 2019 Report Share Posted April 10, 2019 hell yeah! 🍻 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 10, 2019 Report Share Posted April 10, 2019 Cliff, that is FANTASTIC!!! Right on, man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff R Posted April 10, 2019 Report Share Posted April 10, 2019 (edited) Many, many thanks guys. I purchased my land here in 2003, built my shop, then my house, and adding to it every time something comes up for sale attached to me. Although I'd rather own a couple of square miles of property in Colorado or Wyoming right on the Elk migration path I'm good with having a small chunk of property here in Ohio. I have a shooting range, food plots for deer, PLENTY of timber, and enough elbow room I can't see any other houses from mine once the leaves come out in the Spring. I also manage 200 acres directly across the road from me for a local cattle farmer. I shoot groundhogs, coyotes, and manage all the dead and fallen trees, etc. Although it's a bit "heavy" for groundhogs I've shot a few with my PA-10 and the 175 grain Barnes bullets. They never take another step. Also kind-a cool is that within 20 minutes there will be an Eagle on one if I shoot it in the cattle pasture across from my house. The report of the rifle is like a dinner-bell for them! As it relates to this thread, I never even think about barrel length and long range capabilities...FAR more important to exercise good shooting skills and know your sight dope. That little loss of velocity from the shorter barrels is more than made up for in weight and having a compact package put together. You really appreciate that deal when you are hiking in a couple of miles at 12,000' on your Elk hunt!............Cliff Edited April 10, 2019 by Cliff R add pic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff R Posted April 10, 2019 Report Share Posted April 10, 2019 PS: ignore the time, date, etc on the pic, it's been frozen since 2008, the pic was from October 2017..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Damn, Cliff! I never noticed you were from Mount Vernon! Until you stated Ohio!... I'm originally from Zanesville. Moved outta there in '86 and haven'y lived in OH since, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff R Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Cripe, I can hit Zanesville with my 308 if I get the right elevation on it! I'm East of Mount Vernon off Route 36. I've wanted to move out West for quite some time, but my wife doesn't want to leave the grand kids......so I told her to take them with us!........Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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