Albroswift Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 Measuring my 308 sig 12.5 pistol LOP is 13.75 inches. What information I can find BATF could consider that a SBR. With the 7 inch buffer tube I was under the 13.5 inch guideline, but with the Armalite extension I'm over. I plugged the last detent flush with the rail while I was messing around with it last night, works good. Stops at 13.25. Would really like to get these things reliable with the 7in tube, really like the gear head tail hook brace but it uses a proprietary extension so can't use the Armalite extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Albroswift said: What information I can find BATF could consider that a SBR. Are you talking about that response to a letter that someone sent, that circulated recently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterrex Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 Just trying to understand. LOP would apply to a gunstock. A pistol brace is not a gunstock. What am i missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterrex Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 How can you have a LOP on a pistol? Definition of pistol is designed to be used one handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 It’s the measurement from your shoulder to your wrist...fully extended of course. They discriminate against the t-Rex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterrex Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, DNP said: It’s the measurement from your shoulder to your wrist...fully extended of course. They discriminate against the t-Rex. Cool. Doesn't apply to me. I'm just a Rex not a T-Rex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, shooterrex said: Just trying to understand. LOP would apply to a gunstock. A pistol brace is not a gunstock. What am i missing? You're missing the letter that some asshead sent BATFE Firearms Technology Branch, questioning a bunch of stupid shiit that he shouldn't have even sent/ask them in the first place... Several Gun Blogs went apeshiit about it, and blew it way up. Bottom line - an "individual" sent a letter, and they answered, and the response was posted online. That's the ATF position "to that individual." Period. That letter pertains to that individual - that's what we've been warned about for a decade now... "One letter to an individual doesn't mean it's okay FOR YOU to do..." Remember all that garbage? That organization has never issued any "determination Letter" talking about any of this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 That was totally unintended...but I’ll take. The subconscious mind is a terrible thing to waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterrex Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 minute ago, 98Z5V said: You're missing the letter that some asshead sent BATFE Firearms Technology Branch, questioning a bunch of stupid shiit that he shouldn't have even sent/ask them in the first place... Several Gun Blogs went apeshiit about it, and blew it way up. Bottom line - an "individual" sent a letter, and they answered, and the response was posted online. That's the ATF position "to that individual." Period. That letter pertains to that individual - that's what we've been warned about for a decade now... "One letter to an individual doesn't mean it's okay FOR YOU to do..." Remember all that garbage? That organization has never issued any "determination Letter" talking about any of this... I remember that thread. Had more to do with how they measured OAL. The main question was about forward vertical grips. And having to be over 26.5" to have one or it turned the pistol into an AOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 Just now, shooterrex said: I remember that thread. Had more to do with how they measured OAL. The main question was about forward vertical grips. And having to be over 26.5" to have one or it turned the pistol into an AOW. The letter-writer seriously fucked up when asking about folding adaptors, too. That's where the LOP BS came into it, IIRC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albroswift Posted September 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 It must be true, found it on the internet. SB Tactical's website: HOW LOP IS MEASURED Length of Pull, or LOP, is the straight line distance measured from the middle of the face of the trigger to the end of the gun’s stock or brace in it’s longest configuration. The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with an LOP in excess of 13.5” may constitute a re-design of the host pistol and subject the pistol to restrictions under the National Firearms Act. As I get occasional visits from LEO for frightening the neighbors, loud explosions, etc don't want to run afoul on this point if I can help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Albroswift said: It must be true, found it on the internet. SB Tactical's website: HOW LOP IS MEASURED Length of Pull, or LOP, is the straight line distance measured from the middle of the face of the trigger to the end of the gun’s stock or brace in it’s longest configuration. The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with an LOP in excess of 13.5” may constitute a re-design of the host pistol and subject the pistol to restrictions under the National Firearms Act. As I get occasional visits from LEO for frightening the neighbors, loud explosions, etc don't want to run afoul on this point if I can help it. Seems like the last paragraph is more of an issue than LOP brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 13, 2019 Report Share Posted September 13, 2019 16 hours ago, Albroswift said: The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with an LOP in excess of 13.5” may constitute a re-design of the host pistol and subject the pistol to restrictions under the National Firearms Act. ATF sent that to ONE INDIVIDUAL THAT SENT THEM A STUPID LETTER. This has never been talked about, from ATF, since. The Gun-Web has blown this out of proportion, big time... They more they talk about it - the more attention it draws. So, my posts should be deleted now?... They'll self-destruct 5 seconds after y'all read them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbird Posted September 13, 2019 Report Share Posted September 13, 2019 There was a court case in Ohio where BATFE lost. They measured the guys gun this way.... His Defense attorney (court appointed) measured his gun this way, the correct way. The whole article is here and honestly worth the read IMHO. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/ There were a couple of problems with the case against Wright, however. First, the ATF has never issued an official public opinion letter stating that AR pistols with such accessories — cheek rests, pistol braces, etc. — must have a length of pull of no more than 13.5 inches to avoid being considered an SBR. The ATF had communicated that fact to various manufacturers in private opinion letters concerning their specific products over the years (and some of those companies have chosen to make those letters public), but nothing has ever been communicated to the general gun-buying public by the agency. As a result, the defense argued that Wright had no reasonable way of knowing about the 13.5-inch length of pull limit. There’s a Supreme Court precedent in Staples v. United States that found a gun owner has to knowthat his firearm has characteristics that bring it under NFA regulation to be guilty of a crime. The Jury handed BATFE their asses in less than an hour. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albroswift Posted September 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2019 Yes, read that one. If a public pretender can get you off that's a pretty good indication of the merits. PS I measured correctly used a framing square. With the Armalite extension the SBA is 13-3/4"+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 14, 2019 Report Share Posted September 14, 2019 5 hours ago, Albroswift said: Yes, read that one. If a public pretender can get you off that's a pretty good indication of the merits. PS I measured correctly used a framing square. With the Armalite extension the SBA is 13-3/4"+ That doesn't matter - it's a pistol. Pistols don't have a "Length of Pull" because they don't have a stock, which defeats two BATFE definitions. You have to measure the stock... doesn't exist on a pistol. You have a pistol - which doesn't have a stock... Maybe for an SBR- wait, that's got a Tax Stamp, so almost anything is legal on that, once you're approved and get the Stamp... This is a non-event. It doesn't exist, outside of that one letter they sent to one guy that asked ignorant questions... It's not law, and it's never been in a Determination Letter for public consumption... What they wrote to that one individual - doesn't matter to anyone else in the USA, other than that one individual. That was a personal opinion letter from FTB, only... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted September 14, 2019 Report Share Posted September 14, 2019 built off an aow lower.. dont mix a lower that was a rifle at anytime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 14, 2019 Report Share Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, sketch said: built off an aow lower.. dont mix a lower that was a rifle at anytime! Needs to be transferred to you as "pistol" and you never, ever have worries, ever. Not ever. Or, stripped lower needs to be transferred to you as "other" on the 4473 paperwork, and needs to be built as a "pistol" configuration first. I have pics of all my "pistol" builds with date stamps on the pics, shortly after they were transferred as "other." I can prove, without a doubt, that I built all my pistols, as pistols. Gonna be hard for them to prove otherwise, with the documentation that I have on each pistol... Stripped Lowers SHOULD transfer as "other" - because at that point, they're not a firearm, and neither a "rifle" or "pistol" - unless they're specifically caliber-marked as "pistol" right on the stripped lower receiver... - then they have to transfer on the 4473 as a pistol... Edited September 14, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted September 14, 2019 Report Share Posted September 14, 2019 ^^^ clarity in mirky water.👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbird Posted September 16, 2019 Report Share Posted September 16, 2019 On 9/14/2019 at 12:41 AM, 98Z5V said: Needs to be transferred to you as "pistol" and you never, ever have worries, ever. Not ever. Or, stripped lower needs to be transferred to you as "other" on the 4473 paperwork, and needs to be built as a "pistol" configuration first. I have pics of all my "pistol" builds with date stamps on the pics, shortly after they were transferred as "other." I can prove, without a doubt, that I built all my pistols, as pistols. Gonna be hard for them to prove otherwise, with the documentation that I have on each pistol... Stripped Lowers SHOULD transfer as "other" - because at that point, they're not a firearm, and neither a "rifle" or "pistol" - unless they're specifically caliber-marked as "pistol" right on the stripped lower receiver... - then they have to transfer on the 4473 as a pistol... The fact that some mfg are building and selling "pistols" with "braces" that the mfg have some sort of approval on record may matter IMHO. Quite a few mfg in fact. That might be the "safest" route. IMHO I see nothing wrong with "other" recce made into "pistol" either....totally legit. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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