Is the barrel index pin killing my barrel nut?

[W.E.G.]

If it gives you any comfort or perspective on the load-choice (I know some people haven't used much TAC), I shot a LOT of 41.5 4895 through this gun.

Same result.

Group all over the place.

I had hoped that the chewed-up bolt would be the thing at the bottom of this gun's poor performance. I guess not.

[98Z5V]

27 minutes ago, W.E.G. said:

It shoots about the same as 41.5 grains IMR 4895 out of my M1A.

I don't shoot the M1A much these days, because it has iron sights, and I just can see them well enough most days to make spending a day with it worth my while.

Give the load a try in a rifle that you shoot well. The 168SMK is for-sure a good bullet. Be sure you shoot it in a rifle with a good barrel.

Nope, not gonna try it, it's too light of a powder charge for the 168 SMK out of a 1:10" twist barrel.

Which is my point.

You need to develop a load for that gun, before you write that barrel off as junk, then waste money on another barrel and shoot that same load - and call that barrel junk, too.  That load is just too light for a 168gr SMK going through that 1:10" twist rate barrel.  You need to beef that load up - and figure out what that barrel really likes.

RamShot's own load data has a listed range of 39.1 to 43.7 grains of TAC, for the 168 SMK projectile.  You're less than halfway there, running 41.0 grains, and that barrel obviously doesn't like that load...  

[98Z5V]

25 minutes ago, W.E.G. said:

I had hoped that the chewed-up bolt would be the thing at the bottom of this gun's poor performance. I guess not.

I think - no offense - the handload, is the thing at the bottom of this gun's poor performance.  You need to figure out your load - and you can't compare it to any load that you like for your M1A.  This isn't the M1A...  

[W.E.G.]

I hear ya 

But I’m not optimistic. Considering the origin of this barrel, and the low price paid, the adage, “You get what you pay for” looms on this effort.

I’ve got some Federal Gold Medal, and some Lake City M852. Even have a box of “white box” long-range that was issued to the Navy team shortly before the Navy quit most support for rifle teams. Might as well try it as medicine on a patient that badly needs a cure.

Weather for the range supposed to be very nice today. Even if the Palmetto gun still sucks, it will be a fine day to be outdoors.

[mrmackc]

15 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

I think - no offense - the handload, is the thing at the bottom of this gun's poor performance.  You need to figure out your load - and you can't compare it to any load that you like for your M1A.  This isn't the M1A...  

Quite True! these Mickey Mouse made LR .308s ain't anything like a M14 or M1A, I have both and each shoots well WITH the RIGHT .308 Win or NATO 7.62 rounds , whichever Caliber they are. I like a 145 Gr in the LA.308 and the 168 Match in the M1A N.M.

By the way many of us put together a LR308 from a multitude of vendors reminds me of . . . .

One Piece at a Time

Johnny Cash

Well, I left Kentucky back in forty nine
An' went to Detroit workin' on a 'sembly line
The first year they had me puttin' wheels on Cadillacs

Every day I'd watch them beauties roll by
And sometimes I'd hang my head and cry
'Cause I always wanted me one that was long and black.

One day I devised myself a plan
That should be the envy of most any man
I'd sneak it out of there in a lunchbox in my hand
Now gettin' caught meant gettin' fired
But I figured I'd have it all by the time I retired
I'd have me a car worth at least a hundred grand.

I'd get it one piece at a time
And it wouldn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is around.

So…

Edited November 11, 2019 by mrmackc

[W.E.G.]

Little range report.

 

I shot the PA-10 with Federal Gold Medal 168. I’d say it shot the FGM a little bit better than my TAC 41.1 / 168SMK.

But not by much. Definitely not enough to commend the Palmetto barrel. I’ll post a couple of those targets shortly.

 

But first, I want to show y’all something about that TAC handload of mine fired from a different rifle. Again, all firing at 200 yards, prone, sling-support only.

 

DPMS LR-308-T, unmodified except Geissele trigger and the UBR buttstock. Service rifle sling not shown in this pic.

 

This pic shows the 10-shot target. I bracketed the actual target with a paper target that is the correct 600-yard-reduced-for-200, and the Shoot-N-C target that has appeared in some of the previous target pics I’ve posted.

 

This is the kind of accuracy to which I’m accustomed, and which I require of any rifle I will use in competition. The two lowest shots, were called low when fired. No crazy off-call shots like the PA-10 routinely sends.

 

 

Sometimes it’s the load. I get that concept. I truly believe it’s THE GUN in the case of the PA-10.

Edited November 11, 2019 by W.E.G.

[W.E.G.]

The TAC load wasn’t “developed” for that rifle unless roughly matching 41.5 IMR4895 velocity constitutes “development.”

[mrraley]

something I might have missed as I did read through rather quickly...

 

But what is the twist rate on the barrel?

 

Another quick side note... after the index pin is seated, drop some red loc tight around it and let it cure. 

1. it will help keep it in place
2. a little extra reassurance to lock down the barrel extension from coming off, even though it's torqued on at around 200#. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by mrraley

[W.E.G.]

1/10 twist on the PA-10 guns.

1/10 on the DPMS gun too.

Edited November 11, 2019 by W.E.G.

[W.E.G.]

Here are the two targets I fired today with the PA-10, using Federal Gold Medal ammo with 168-grain bullet

[98Z5V]

That barrel just might not like FGMM 168s, either.  But, that's why I asked the questions that I did.  I wouldn't junk that barrel right away, just because it doesn't like a certain factory ammo, or doesn't like a handload that you have, that below-half-way in the acceptable charge scale.  On these gas guns, you usually find that the load that they like is pretty close to max recommended charge weights, maybe a little under, maybe a little over - max charge weights that you find listed.  That 41.0gr load that you listed earlier, yesterday, has now turned into a 41.1gr load, today  - and you can go up to 43.7grains of that powder, for that specific projectile. 

Get the charge weights up, in increments, and really test that barrel...  Before you junk it...

I have a very well-known barrel that absolutely HATES FGGM 168 - but it loves FGGM 175s.  It loves my 178gr handloads even more, too.  Not all barrels are the same, even if they're the same specs, dimensions, etc...  Two different brands, that are identical on the outside  - might like two different loads. 

 

[W.E.G.]

Yeah I misspoke when I said 40.0 before. 

Its been 41.1 all along.

[98Z5V]

16 minutes ago, W.E.G. said:

Yeah I misspoke when I said 40.0 before. 

Its been 41.1 all along.

If you decide to junk that barrel - sell it to me cheap.  I'll see if I can develop a load that it likes.  Solely for the purpose of seeing it that PSA barrel can be saved.  I'd love to do that.

[W.E.G.]

I may just do that.

First gotta see what the Blackface-Klansman Governor pulls off between now and next summer.

This from his medical school yearbook. Is there anybody LESS qualified to decide my rights???

 

 

[DNP]

Come on man...he’s a doctor...and a politician. Who could be less qualified to talk to normal people?

[Cunuckgaucho]

14 hours ago, W.E.G. said:

I may just do that.

First gotta see what the Blackface-Klansman Governor pulls off between now and next summer.

This from his medical school yearbook. Is there anybody LESS qualified to decide my rights???

 

 

He's your state's representative, these are pictures of my country's Prime Minister and he just got re elected even after these pictures made the news. 

He not only black faced he went above and beyond

[W.E.G.]

I'm probably gonna just mothball it at this point.
I've tested everything I can test. I've fixed everything I can fix - except the barrel.

Whether its the barrel (I suspect it is), or something else (I've changed damn-near everything else on the gun!), what I know for sure is, this rifle does not shoot to the standard of accuracy I demand for the purpose of which I intended it.

Configured as best as I can to comply with the "service rifle" rule for M-110 rifle in NRA/CMP National Match competition.

Virginia gun laws do not bode well for this rifle in 2020. If it isn't legal to be seen with it in public on July 1, you won't be seeing me with it in public.

[mrraley]

3 hours ago, W.E.G. said:

I'm probably gonna just mothball it at this point.
I've tested everything I can test. I've fixed everything I can fix - except the barrel.

Whether its the barrel (I suspect it is), or something else (I've changed damn-near everything else on the gun!), what I know for sure is, this rifle does not shoot to the standard of accuracy I demand for the purpose of which I intended it.

Configured as best as I can to comply with the "service rifle" rule for M-110 rifle in NRA/CMP National Match competition.

If that is what you are looking to do with it... your best bet would be to get an ArmaLite AR-10NM. Made specifically for that reason. I figure that if the AMU (ARMY Marksmanship Unit) can use them and do good with them, then there must be something good about them.

 

I know, you wanted the satisfaction of "building" your own. But in this case, not so much. 

 

Depending on where you are at though, I would like to take a look at it myself. 

[Armed Eye Doc]

7 hours ago, mrraley said:

Depending on where you are at though, I would like to take a look at it myself. 

@W.E.G. if you have the ability to make this happen, I would take this opportunity.  He can tell you what is what is wrong and how to fix it.

[98Z5V]

I'd take Pat up on that offer.  If it truly comes down to the barrel being a POS, then I want a crack at that barrel, to try to develop a load that it might like. If I can't come up with ANYTHING that it likes, then it becomes one long tent stake, or a pry bar.  And I don't mind that.

If you need a barrel that WILL shoot, for positive, and won't break the bank -hit up Ballistic Advantage or Fulton Armory.  I'd also recommend Faxon, but they don't have anything that will be comparable (material, profile) to get you into M110 Service comp.  Fulton Armory has a direct copy of an M110 barrel.  BA has a few great ones that would fit the bill, and make the M110 categorization. 

Read the FA intro on their .308AR wares:

https://www.fulton-armory.com/FAR-308-Titan.aspx

Here is their barrels page:

https://www.fulton-armory.com/far-308-barrels.aspx

Here are their M110 barrels, Criterion first, Kreiger second - you're gonna pay for that Kreiger...  Both are great. 

https://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelfatitan20nmm110ss1x12875gasblockthreaded.aspx

https://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelfatitan20nmm110ss1x12875gasblockthreaded-2.aspx

From Ballistic Advantage, these will fit the bill:

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/20-inch-308-gov-rifle-ss-premium-barrel.html

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/20-inch-308-fluted-rifle-ss-premium-barrel.html

 

[W.E.G.]

The Virginia General Assembly is going to make it a FELONY for me to continue to own this rifle in 2020.

Please understand that my enthusiasm to continue putting time and money into this rifle is somewhat muted for now.

 

This is what is coming to Virginia in January.

 

 

https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?192+ful+HB4021

 

§ 18.2-308.8. Importation, sale, possession, etc., of assault firearms prohibited; penalty.

A. For purposes of this section:

"Assault firearm" means:

1. A semi-automatic center-fire rifle that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material with a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 10 rounds;

2. A semi-automatic center-fire rifle that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has one of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the rifle; (iii) a thumbhole stock; (iv) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand; (v) a bayonet mount; (vi) a grenade launcher; (vii) a flare launcher; (viii) a silencer; (ix) a flash suppressor; (x) a muzzle brake; (xi) a muzzle compensator; (xii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting (a) a silencer, (b) a flash suppressor, (c) a muzzle brake, or (d) a muzzle compensator; or (xiii) any characteristic of like kind as enumerated in clauses (i) through (xii);

3. A semi-automatic center-fire pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material with a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 10 rounds;

4. A semi-automatic center-fire pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has one of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a thumbhole stock; (iii) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand; (iv) the capacity to accept a magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (v) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the pistol with the non-trigger hand without being burned; (vi) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; (vii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting (a) a silencer, (b) a flash suppressor, (c) a barrel extender, or (d) a forward handgrip; or (viii) any characteristic of like kind as enumerated in clauses (i) through (vii);

5. A shotgun with a revolving cylinder that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material; or

6. A semi-automatic shotgun that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material that has one of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock, (ii) a thumbhole stock, (iii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the shotgun, (iv) the ability to accept a detachable magazine, (v) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of seven rounds, or (vi) any characteristic of like kind as enumerated in clauses (i) through (v).

"Assault firearm" includes any part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert, modify, or otherwise alter a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts that may be readily assembled into an assault firearm. "Assault firearm" does not include (i) a firearm that has been rendered permanently inoperable, (ii) an antique firearm as defined in § 18.2-308.2:2, or (iii) a curio or relic as defined in § 18.2-308.2:2.

B. It shall be is unlawful for any person to import, sell, possess or transfer the following firearms: the Striker 12, commonly called a "streetsweeper," or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells, manufacture, purchase, possess, or transport an assault firearm. A violation of this section shall be is punishable as a Class 6 felony.

C. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) any government officer, agent, or employee, or member of the Armed Forces of the United States, to the extent that such person is acquiring, possessing, transferring, or transporting an assault firearm within the scope of his official duties; (ii) the manufacture of an assault firearm by a firearms manufacturer for the purpose of sale to any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or to a law-enforcement agency in the Commonwealth for use by that agency or its employees, provided that the manufacturer is properly licensed under federal, state, and local laws; or (iii) the sale or transfer of an assault firearm by a licensed dealer to any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or to a law-enforcement agency in the Commonwealth for use by that agency or its employees.

[98Z5V]

Looks like this is all you'll be able to own, with 10rd mags and no more:

[shooterrex]

This is why the dems spent millions on the last election in Va. My friend Dutch that ran for state Senate spent about $50,000 on the race. The dems spent half a million on his opponent.  for a job that pays $18,000 a year.