AR-10 at a grand?

[JakeLo1212]

Well I don't know if you guys remember me but I was the college student wanting to build a .338 federal as my first AR-10 last year and y'all helped me right much. I check in from time to time lurking around seeing what you guys are discussing but now I have another rebuild in mind I wanted some opinions on before I kicked it off. I love my .338 fed and took 2 deer with it this season but my other love is hearing steel ring at long ranges. I'm considering starting up my next build with some 1000 yard dreams. I'm fairly set on the 6mm creedmoor as it outperforms most other typical AR cartridges in ballistic coefficient and velocity. Anyone have suggestions on starting my first semi-auto long range build? Open to anything from triggers and bolts, to barrel manufacturers and muzzle devices, and anything in between. Interested In what y'all have to say.

PS here's some pictures of my .338 build and buck harvested (neck shot at 180) you guys helped me out with so much. Thanks again - Jacob

[98Z5V]

Right on!!!   You'll be building this one to be a gas gun, too, I'm guessing.  Which is cool.  Yeah, I caught it - you stated that when I re-read it.  Perfect...  

You reloading yet, or using off-the-shelf ammo? 

1k yards would be a cake walk for a 6 Creed, literally.  Not even a challenge for that cartridge.  6mm ARC will do the same thing, in a small frame AR - just tossing that out there. 

So, reloading.  First thing is gonna be finding the gas gun barrel.  Then, finding the right twist rate in it, to do distance.  Some of the heaviest 6mm projectiles you'll find will be in the 108gr range, some out there a few grains heavier, but not by much.  Find something with a 7" twist, preferably, or a 7.5" twist at the slowest.  That'll get the heavies out there to distance easily.  Next thing about the reloading question - .243 Win will do the same thing as 6 Creed, but you're making brass from .308 cases, and turning the necks down.  That's an almost unlimited supply of brass, once you find good brass to make it from.  Then, there's finding that barrel again...  

Just to get us started.  We can figure out what to do, and how to spend your money -again.     Awesome update on the .338 Fed gun, perfect follow-through, all the way.  You did it well.  

[98Z5V]

Alright, I found a barrel maker already, for 6 Creed gas guns.  I don't know anything about this company, so do some research on them

https://deadshotbarrels.com/product/ar-10-6mm-creedmoor/

I went through the menu, selected a stainless 18" rifle gas barrel (1:7.5" twist) with a 0.750" gas block diameter, heavy profile, threaded 5/8x24, added the gas tube for another $12, added the steel 0.750" gas block for another $20, and the thing comes up to $297.  That's a pretty damned good deal, right there.  But, like I said - research the company.  Look for reviews. 

6 Creed is just necked down 6.5 Creed, which runs the same base diameter at .308 Win, so any .308 AR BCG should have you doing okay, as long as it's a quality BCG. 

Rainier Arms also has an 18" barrel for $350, heavy fluted, about the same specs, but it's 1:8" twist.  They state it's a Match chamber and designed for the 105gr to 108gr heavies.  Might work, I don't know.  I'd go for a little faster twist rate than 1:8" for this gun. 

That's the extent of my reasearch, so far.  Happy Hunting, and let us know what the thought process is along the way. 

[JakeLo1212]

3 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Alright, I found a barrel maker already, for 6 Creed gas guns.  I don't know anything about this company, so do some research on them

https://deadshotbarrels.com/product/ar-10-6mm-creedmoor/

6 Creed is just necked down 6.5 Creed, which runs the same base diameter at .308 Win, so any .308 AR BCG should have you doing okay, as long as it's a quality BCG. 

Rainier Arms also has an 18" barrel for $350, heavy fluted, about the same specs, but it's 1:8" twist.  They state it's a Match chamber and designed for the 105gr to 108gr heavies

Awesome stuff thanks. I actually looked at Deadshot for a while building the cannon last year, but backed out for same reason as you... absolutely no reviews out there. I've got a little better budget than the 338 did because I'll have graduated in a month and I'm in no rush to get this done. Ideally I'd like to have a blueprint laid out and some components before Black Friday and the holidays to catch deals. I've always been told that Proof Research is the gold standard for building any precision firearm and they make 2 steel barrels (22 and 24in @ 7.5 twist) and 1 of their notorious carbon fiber barrels (also 22 @ 7.5) Barrel I feel is the foundation, and absolutely no.1 priority obviously for a build like this, the rest is icing on the cake. Anyone have experience making precision gas guns with PROOF? Is it worth the premium price? And is carbon fiber the way to go even though its a throat punch to the wallet 😂? 

On the reloading side of things. I have reloaded hundred of rounds of 6.5, 25-06, 204, 308, and more but I have never played around with turning necks for the brass. I clearly need to learn if I have any hope of shooting more quality ammo in my 338 cause there's zilch on the shelves. I have looked at people playing with the 115 grain berger VLD with massive success. But most say you need certain materials to reload them I'm unfamiliar with, also those heavier bullets may not want that 7.5 twist. 

Still looking for suggestions on trigger assembly. Always been a "buy the gun, adjust the stock trigger down, and blame yourself if something went wrong" guy so I've got basically no knowledge on this topic. Happy to hear what you guys like. 

And finally furniture. adjustable cheek pad and maybe a more vertical, egonomic grip would go a long way in making this rifle that much more fun to shoot so anyone have experience on that front? 

Thanks again for the help

[DNP]

@Robocop1051 should have some experience with those proof guys. They do make some nice stuff. Looking forward to watching this build grow. 

[98Z5V]

On 3/24/2023 at 1:38 AM, JakeLo1212 said:

 but I have never played around with turning necks for the brass. I clearly need to learn if I have any hope of shooting more quality ammo in my 338 cause there's zilch on the shelves.

 

Still looking for suggestions on trigger assembly.

And finally furniture. adjustable cheek pad and maybe a more vertical, egonomic grip would go a long way in making this rifle that much more fun to shoot so anyone have experience on that front? 

Thanks again for the help

So, those three things above.

#1.  Turning necks.  If you're making your 6 Creed brass from 6.5 Creemoor brass, that's really not necking down enough to force you to have to turn the necks.  Right now, I only have to turn necks on one caliber, and that's my .260 Rem, because I make all that brass from Hornady .308 Win Match brass.  That's a big jump down, the necks end up with an OD too large, and I have to turn those necks down.  I'll keep you informed about necking that same .308 Win Match brass down to 7mm (.284) for the 7mm-08 project.  I hope I don't have to turn those necks...

When necking up, from .308 Win, like .338 Fed, you should never have to turn the necks.  The wall diameter of the .308 Win necks actually gets thinner, once necked up to .338 Fed.  It still works, and isn't an issue, but you should never have to turn those .338s unless you're bring them down from something else - not going up from .308. 

#2.  Trigger.  LaRue MBT-2S trigger.  2-stage, usually around $90, and worth it's weight in gold, before you need to jump up to a $300 Geissele Hi-Speed Match trigger.  Get the LaRue, try it, and you'll like it.  If you think it sucks, someone here will buy it from you for what you have in it, plus shipping.  If nobody else would do that, in that case - I certainly would. 

#3.  Furniture.  This is my new Go-To for stocks and grips:  B5 Systems Precision Stock - you'll need the "short" to run on the Large Frames...

Combine that with the B5 P-23 Grip, and it's a great combo.

 

This combo is my Go-To on the last 3 guns that I've worked on, and it's flawless in operation.  I stand behind that stuff, both in quality and in operation. 

[Traveler]

This is all seriously interesting stuff. Makes me want to start another thread to just ask questions for mental filing. 💾

[Magwa]

Ok Glad to see you again..... I am a very serious steel shooter and as for a trigger my choice is Elfman Triggers they make many that would work for you and they are simply brilliant. as for Proof research they are my favorite barrel maker and I use one on my 6.5x284 Norma and I have shot as far as a mile with 140 grain Berger Hybrids..... this gun you are building is going to be a beast and it will be heavy a carbon Fiber barrel would be nice but cost you a grand.... your call, recoil will not be a problem if you are not going to run a suppressor then I suggest a Eric Cortina tuner brake  with that you will be able to watch all your traces to the target and be able to tune to other bullets when components are hard to find like NOW! If you have the bucks we can show you how to spend it it is just how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.......

   I just finished my 6.5 Creedmoor LR gas gun and I used a aero precision Barrel 22 inches long and a toolcraft  BCG and I am thrilled with the results it shoots less than 1/2 inch at a 100 with factory loads going to be a fun gun good luck P.S. look at Luth stocks they will save you weight and they work awesome.......

Edited March 27, 2023 by Magwa

[JakeLo1212]

I'll definitely look into Elfman and Luth. Do you feel like you lost much velocity with a 22 inch on a gas gun? My primary concern with building an AR over a bolt gun isn't comfort or accuracy, it's actually how much velocity you'll lose with a shorter barrel and losing gas. As most factory rounds are tested out of a bolt gun with 24+ inch barrels. A couple hundred fps or so makes a massive difference in reaching long distances. 

Also weight isn't the biggest factor In the world. This will be a primarily stationary/benchrest gun and will almost always have a bag or bipod under it. If it ever sees a carrying/hunting situation it will just be to to have fun and maybe try poking varmints at stupid long ranges. Obviously I'd rather not have a 25 pound piece of artillery to carry around with me but weight isn't a deciding factor for me if it means getting a better product. 

 

[98Z5V]

8 hours ago, JakeLo1212 said:

Do you feel like you lost much velocity with a 22 inch on a gas gun? My primary concern with building an AR over a bolt gun isn't comfort or accuracy, it's actually how much velocity you'll lose with a shorter barrel and losing gas. As most factory rounds are tested out of a bolt gun with 24+ inch barrels.

All that doesn't mean shiit.  An accurate gun is an accurate gun.  Get the muzzle velocity, make a dope chart, and it's still an accurate gun, with a shorter barrel.

I try not to build anything with a barrel that's longer than 18".  That barrel length, to me, is perfect, and you never need any more, IMHO.  I didn't have a choice with my .260 Rem gun, and that thing is a 20" barrel.  Oh well, still works great - just wish it was an 18" barrel.  Being 20", and my muzzle velocity, it's 1500 yards supersonic. 

My 16" LaRue 6 ARC upper, with the handload for it moving 2649fps with the 108 ELD-M projectile - that thing is supersonic to 1075 yards - from a 16" barrel, small-frame AR.  Drops just below supersonic right before 1100 yards.  From a 16" small-frame gun.  Is it accurate?  Fuk yeah it is.  First run out, break in, zero the scope at 100, and then run it right away - run it to 425 on a flower target (those things suck to hit), then run it to 900 yards on full-size steel.  Accurate guns are accurate guns.  Barrel length does not dictate whether a gun will be accurate.

Which leads me to - How FAR do you want this gun to go, and can you do that distance?  My Win Mag does a mile, with a 26" barrel - but it would still do that with a 20" barrel.  I just don't want to send the whole gun off somewhere, just to get the barrel cut down.  If I could do it close to here, and fast, then I'd do it.  I know one guy that could do it  - but it might take him 2 years to get it done.  Not worth it to me.

Don't get hung up on barrel length and velocity  - just build an accurate gun.  Barrel length doesn't really matter, for an accurate gun.  But then - what are your expectations for this gun?  How far do you want to make a poke with it??

[JakeLo1212]

The velocity does mean something to me, I've played with short barreled rifles before and they are inherently less accurate and slower. Not saying that a short gun can't be accurate, my 16 in .338 shoots sub moa at 100, but it does make a difference. There's a reason pistols won't group like rifles, and most precision long range guns come in 26-30 inch setups. I have a 24 inch barrel .308 bolt gun that will shoot the same factory loads as my friends 20 inch brush gun about 250 fps faster out of the muzzle. Now imagine that difference with the loss of gas from this gun, there's the possibility of losing feet of elevation at these 1000-1500 ranges I'm hoping for out of the gun.  

[Magwa]

1 hour ago, JakeLo1212 said:

The velocity does mean something to me, I've played with short barreled rifles before and they are inherently less accurate and slower. Not saying that a short gun can't be accurate, my 16 in .338 shoots sub moa at 100, but it does make a difference. There's a reason pistols won't group like rifles, and most precision long range guns come in 26-30 inch setups. I have a 24 inch barrel .308 bolt gun that will shoot the same factory loads as my friends 20 inch brush gun about 250 fps faster out of the muzzle. Now imagine that difference with the loss of gas from this gun, there's the possibility of losing feet of elevation at these 1000-1500 ranges I'm hoping for out of the gun.  

what 98Z5V is saying is correct  that a accurate gun is a accurate gun velocity just means there is less gravity in effect on the bullet flight path it helps you reach out there with more energy yes but at 0 to 1500 yards and at steel it really does not matter as the important part is accuracy.

   I hunt with a LR308 DPMS with 168 Barnes TTSX bullets and a 16 inch barrel yes a carbine barrel the 7 or 8 elk I have killed over 300 yards up to almost 500 yards could not tell you if it was a long barrel or a short one..... but it is deadly accurate, most people do not understand what long range reloading is all about they just reload to save bucks and that is fine but when you have a load zeroed at 100 yards it does NOT mean it will shoot at 1000 or 1760 yards you have to verify at 400 and 800 to know you have a solid bullet flight path and whatever velocity you have is what you have  example... buffalo hunters killing buffalo at 1000 yards and longer with a 4570 at 1000 yards it is probably only going 1000FPS if that but it is accurate use a 338 Lapua it is probably going around 2000FPS and the same result dead buffalo... don't get hung up on speed get hung up on accuracy it only takes 300 FT.LBS to pierce the human body get the bullet to the target.....

   6mm Creed you have to have enough dial up in your scope to reach out and once you get to around 1350 or so you are going to need a lot of dial up so if that is your plan , well get ready to spend another 2500 on a scope capable of that and capable of tracking and consistently getting you there this long range game rabbit hole runs deep but to have fun out to 1k just relax and enjoy and don't worry about the small stuff worry about accuracy that is the key.

   and just so you know wind on those light bullets will also be a killer I know when I shot the mile I was holding 12 MOA just for wind and that was a 140 grain bullet remember a 1moa gun shoots a group of 10 inches at 1000 yards a sub 1/2 inch gun shoots a group of 3 inches i do not really care how fast either is going I will take the 3 inch gun all day..... when I am building a load if it will not shoot a group where all rounds are touching at 100 yards I will pull the barrel because it will not be accurate enough to hit a 6 inch target at 1k consistently...

[Matt.Cross]

On 3/28/2023 at 8:07 AM, JakeLo1212 said:

I've played with short barreled rifles before and they are inherently less accurate

 

that's frankly nonsense. simply can't think of a more polite way to put it than that....

[Rsquared]

13 hours ago, JakeLo1212 said:

I've played with short barreled rifles before and they are inherently less accurate

I'm not going to dog-pile here. Because I think that we can kind of agree and disagree at the same time.

People tend to think of SBR's as typically being used as door-kickers. Which, to an extent, is what their primary basis of design is made for. Shorter barreled weapons, for close quarter engagements, so that you can move through doors and maneuver around corners much easier (read as aggressive) than with standard carbine/rifle length weapons.

Now, with that being said. That doesn't stop them from being accurate at longer distances.

My MK18 is deadly accurate in "short range" territory. Roughly in the 200 yards (ish) or less range. Am I going to try and push it to much farther distances? For personal curiosity...yes. For practical engagement? No.

On the other hand. My AR-10 SBR (12.5" barrel) has banged steel out to 500 yards (ish) consistently. Once again. Would it be my "go to" for those kind of distances? Probably not. But it's nice to know that you don't necessarily have to storm the castle, if you can send harassing (and accurate) fire in it's direction from those distances when needed.

In summary: Different tools for different needs.

For reference, the MK18:

And the AR-10:

 

[Matt.Cross]

On 3/28/2023 at 8:07 AM, JakeLo1212 said:

The velocity does mean something to me, I've played with short barreled rifles before and they are inherently less accurate and slower. Not saying that a short gun can't be accurate, my 16 in .338 shoots sub moa at 100, but it does make a difference. There's a reason pistols won't group like rifles, and most precision long range guns come in 26-30 inch setups. I have a 24 inch barrel .308 bolt gun that will shoot the same factory loads as my friends 20 inch brush gun about 250 fps faster out of the muzzle. Now imagine that difference with the loss of gas from this gun, there's the possibility of losing feet of elevation at these 1000-1500 ranges I'm hoping for out of the gun.  

 

I have an 18.5" barrel that shoots 175gr Gold Medal Match faster than a 24" factory proof barrel. Data comprised of a single comparison doesn't make for good generalizations. I'd be interested to hear the data on what your 24" bolt gun runs the same ammo (FGMM 175gr) over the chrono, I'm curious to see if your theory about barrel length and velocity holds water. 2610fps for a 175gr SMK out of a 18.5" 1:10 twist barrel, averaged over a 100-shot string, 70° ambient temperature >10% humidity. 

I think you're vastly overestimating what your gas losses are, and I'm 100% positive that barrel length won't have enough effect on your velocities to otherwise negate your effectiveness at the ranges you discussed. Don't take my word for it though, build your system and prove your data, or disprove it, either way, we all learn and benefit.

[98Z5V]

16 hours ago, JakeLo1212 said:

The velocity does mean something to me, I've played with short barreled rifles before and they are inherently less accurate and slower. Not saying that a short gun can't be accurate, my 16 in .338 shoots sub moa at 100, but it does make a difference. There's a reason pistols won't group like rifles, and most precision long range guns come in 26-30 inch setups. I have a 24 inch barrel .308 bolt gun that will shoot the same factory loads as my friends 20 inch brush gun about 250 fps faster out of the muzzle. Now imagine that difference with the loss of gas from this gun, there's the possibility of losing feet of elevation at these 1000-1500 ranges I'm hoping for out of the gun.  

What are you chasing?  What's you goal for this gun?

That needs to be answered first.  What you want this gun to do for you...

[98Z5V]

14 hours ago, Magwa said:

don't get hung up on speed get hung up on accuracy it only takes 300 FT.LBS to pierce the human body get the bullet to the target.....

This is the "KILLER" killer, right here.  All the hunting mags (when real, print magazines were a thing) always told you that you needed 1000 ft-lbs of energy to kill something.  That's complete bullshiit, right there on it's face - but everyone hangs on to that number.

I've stated it numerous times.  Right here.  Projectile selection, Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR), and accurate dope - I can kill anything within my MPBR without a hold over - dead hold.  After that, I need to dial, for longer distances - or just simply hold-over, if I know my dope for the gun. 

Just weaponize math, man - that all it is.  It's nothing more than math, and knowing what you're doing at distance, once you understand that. 

[98Z5V]

Buy this book.  Read it.  Then read it 17 more times.  You'll gain a real appreciation for External Ballistics.

Edited March 29, 2023 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

I just ran a LaRue 16" 6 ARC gun during a competition.  That little thing scored the 3rd fasted time, on the timed stage, out of 59 people shooting that day.  10 targets, 20-round limit in the mags, 90 seconds per stage.  3rd fastest time on that stage.  From a 16" barrel. 

It's an accurate gun.  10 targets, I shot 10 times, and had 10 hits.  Done.  OUT.  Thanks for playing.  Glad to be here. 

Longest range to target this month was 655 yards.  Short guns can do it, and run range.  Long range.  If they're accurate guns.  Barrel length, velocity - whatever.  Make an accurate gun.  I've run my 12.5" barreled 6.5 Grendel gun to 850 yards, with a Leupold 4x scope, dialing 10.6 mils of drop, for that load. 

Speed doesn't really matter.  Accuracy is what really matters.  Build an accurate gun.

[98Z5V]

I chased muzzle velocity for many years.  Get the fastest.  All I did was damage brass, to the point that I couldn't reload it...

Chase the fast ones.  Go for it.  You'll come back around, eventually. 

[Cliff R]

I'll take accuracy over veloicity every single time.  It's far more important to have a rifle that will shoot nearly all the rounds in the same hole at 100 yards even if it gives up a little velocity.  I also use and prefer lighter and shorter rifles these days, especially for hunting.  My two "go to" rifles are my 450 Bushmaster topped with a 1-4 Leupold and 308-AR topped with a 2-7 Leupold.  I've taken plenty of game with both with a near 100 percent hit-kill ratio.

Right to start with the vast majority of shots taken on game, even out West in the mountains of Colorado where I Elk hunt are NOT going to be very far.  Yes, at least 9 out of 10 opportunities on Bull Elk on public ground are going to be close encounters, not that crap you see on TV shows where the hunting "party" has 10 minutes to get set up on some "stoopid" Bull Elk that's milling around out in the open or tied to a leash to graze on some hunting ranch.  

In the real World of hunting big game more often than not they are going to be close, and moving, not long distance and just hanging around in the open waiting for you to get your chit together enough to end their existence.....IMHO

Anyhow, for that and other reasons I'll take a short, light and accurate rifle over a big, bulky, long/heavy barreled gun that shoots a couple hundred FPS faster.  IF I do get a long shot with my SBR I still know the sight dope of the rounds I'm using and when holdover is needed and  how much of it to keep the rounds in the bread basket......FWIW....

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Cliff R