Scopes for .308 ARs

[DrHntr]

Hello Forum,

Hopefully this is not a topic that is already well covered.  I have seen several companies that make scopes designed for the 5.56 mm NATO AR rifles, but I am guessing that they might not be good for a 7.62 NATO AR as the ballistics of the two are different.  For example, one .223 AR scope already has incremental markings in the view, going out to 600 yards.

I am guessing that it is not as likely to find a scope designed specifically for the .308.  Does anyone know if there a scope designed for an AR .308?

In a variable power scope, I figure that 1X or 2X on the low end, and 8X to 12X on the high end would be good.

Thanks for your suggestions and help.

[TacBlade]

I believe that Leupold and Nikon now have scopes out that have BDC (Bullet Drop Compensator) designation on them.  You just have to give them the specifics on your gun and ammo and they will send you out a specific dial for it.  This does not cost that much or it is included when you buy the scope, you just send in a card.  Also, you can get Trijicon ACOGS with specific for the .308.  There may be more out there, but these are just a few I can remember off the top of my head. Its nice to see new people on here, So Welcome Aboard!!!

[Robocop1051]

The 308 specific scopes are going to cost you $$$. I know the ACOGs are running about $1700 and the Nightforce are going for over $2k.

I would likely suggest something like the Leupold VX-3L CDS (or an Illum VX-7) and just learn to dial your scope for each shot. I know having the pre marked bullet drop saves time, but if you are shooting from such an extreme distance that you need the dots... then generally you have time to adjust your scope.

I really only saw the need for scopes with  bullet drop markings on military weapons (maybe a dog town rifle). I never felt like I needed mil-dots for any of my LE stuff or hunting. I know a lot of guys have them, I'm just saying that "I" never had a use for them.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying they are a bad idea... I never saw a reason to buy a Corvette either, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't like to own one!

[ryantowry_81]

i have the bushmaster optics tready carbine with a 16" 1:10 twist barrel  with a nikon monarch 3-12x42 on top and it has the generic BDC reticle and it is really quite close to my balistics with factory 168 grain ammo. i set it at 100 yards and my hold it consistantly hits inside the circles on the recticle. i mean it might not be good enough for a head shot at 800 yards but i would call it minute of moose(kill shot that is not just to hit the moose) at 500 easy.  and if you end up not being close just practice like the owners manual suggests till you know where on the recticle your hold is at the specific yardages and then you will have a reference.

[YWHIC]

I had a Bushnell Banner 3-9x40 with BDC 'cams' it was OK..

I did not like to TURN a cam to shoot.. and it seemed iffy..

I then sold it..

I then bought the Bushnell 4-12x40 XLT Trophy 600 DOA for $170.. which has markings on the RETICLE for 100-500 yards and the bottom is 600 yards.. (like the Nikon BDC model pretty much)

So far it seems MUCH better then the previous one..

The 600 DOA has a list of ammo for it.. all different HOT loads.. most 308 ammo is in the 2900+ FPS range in various GR.. Hornady 150SST, 110TAP.. anything with ZING should match the reticle.. still testing out on my Saiga 308 with 21" barrel..  I will check back in when I go out again to test the new ZINGY ammo I bought for $30/box..  :P

Al

[jtb33]

You need this one.

[J.Boyette]

DrHntr,

You are on the right track, there are ways to make the BDC reticles work for your needs. The first step to to know the bullet drop of the load you will shoot.

Next is to find a BDC reticle you like. Once done is simple to make it all work how you want. 

Take the MOA you have from 100 to lets say 600yds Les assume this is the drop chart:

yds - MOA

100 0.00

150 0.75

200 1.75

250 2.75

300 4.25

350 5.5

400 7.00

450 8.5

500 10.25

550 12.00

600 14.00

Next, go to a 100yd range and take a piece of cardboard and mark every 3 inches going down from the top with a 1" orange dot. Between these dots draw a line in blue and red every inch. For a total of 18"

Now take that riflescope with the BDC reticle mounted on the rifle and aim at the top of the chart of orange dots, red and blue lines. At each BDC hold point write down the inches it covers.

So it should be like this:

Now this the measurements I just gave you it should be:

the 1st hold line in the reticle is at about 2.5”

the 2nd hold line in the reticle is at about 3.5”

the 3rd hold line in the reticle is at about 6”

the 4th hold line in the reticle is at about 8.75”

the 5th hold line in the reticle is at about 11.75”

When we look at the bullet drop chart in MOA above, we can now convert the data

the 1st hold line in the reticle 175yds

the 2nd hold line in the reticle 275yds

the 3rd hold line in the reticle 375yds

the 4th hold line in the reticle 450yds

the 5th hold line in the reticle 525yds

So that's how you skin this cat. Do not worry its easy.

[TacBlade]

Now that is some good info!!!!  I am going to try this!!!  When can I come to one of your schools? I think we should keep you around J.B., what does everyone else think? <thumbsup>

[J.Boyette]

TacBlade,

If you would like, send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will send you my open dates in 2011.

Then you pick the dates that work for you. Once done I will see what class you want, and based on the class and dates I will pick the best range to fill your needs.

Thats how I roll, I do it all off the student not what I want to do. Then I match the range to the class, not try to fit the class to the range.

But back on the post,

Guys, I do not like a BDC reticle at all. I think its half a$$ed in how it works, and they do work, but not great do to the lack of a solid way to estimate the range of a target.

So with all that, I would go with a basic mil-dot reticle and be done with it. Check this ---> link out

[SWshooter]

Leupold will make a custom reticle for $70, they will also build a custom BDC though I haven't priced one lately. Just give them the specifics of the load your shooting.

[SICARIO]

I have the Burris XTR 1.5-6 w/ the 7.62 BDC on mine and really like it.

[reelgator]

I went with the Pride Fowler 10X with Trijicon RMR 4 MOA mounted on top. I have two other Pride Fowler scopes and love them. The quality is tops and the reticles make things easy. They also designed the Rapid-Z reticles for Zeiss.

[benjammin]

For a short barreled LR-308, a Trijicon TA33-9 would be ideal for run and gun stuff.  A Counter Sniper 2-16 compact for more delicate work, and a Leapers Accushot 3-12 x 44 compact for a budget conscious compromise.

For a long heavy barreled LR-308, a Nightforce NXS in 8-32 x 56 will get you to 1,000 yards, although the new Counter Sniper 4-48 x 56 will give it a good run for the money.  Again, on the low-price end the Leapers Accushot 8-32 x 56 will work okay.

[jtb33]

For a short barreled LR-308, a Trijicon TA33-9 would be ideal for run and gun stuff.  A Counter Sniper 2-16 compact for more delicate work, and a Leapers Accushot 3-12 x 44 compact for a budget conscious compromise.

For a long heavy barreled LR-308, a Nightforce NXS in 8-32 x 56 will get you to 1,000 yards, although the new Counter Sniper 4-48 x 56 will give it a good run for the money.  Again, on the low-price end the Leapers Accushot 8-32 x 56 will work okay.

Are you kidding?  You're seriously suggesting "Counter Sniper" for "more delicate work" and then proceed to compare Counter Sniper to Nightforce?  The two are WORLDS apart in terms of just about everything a scope is.  Unless you like pissing money away, do NOT buy a Counter Sniper.

To answer the OP's question, a driving factor is your budget.  What do you want to spend?

I have a USO SN-3 1.8-10x37, but that's a $2500 optic:

Here's a Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 2.5-8x36.  It's a SFP optic, but has 7.62 168gr M2 turrets on it, so it's designed for the 308 round.  That scope would run you about $900.  Here's one on the same LR-308:

[img width=810 height=540]http://cefllc.net/images/LR308/IMG_2035.JPG

Or you could go with a Nightforce optic - either 2.5-10x24 (discontinued, tough to find) or 2.5-10x32, but also not cheap in the $1300 range.  It's a SFP as well, but you have more reticle and turret choices (Mil/Mil or MOA).  Here's my NF 2.5-10x24 on a SIG 556:

[img width=810 height=540]http://cefllc.net/images/SIG556/IMG_1041e2.jpg

[benjammin]

My experience with both the Counter Sniper and the Nightforce is comparable.  Sorry to hear yours may not have been, but then I am relatively new to both, having only recently acquired a Counter Sniper scope and having only shot about 200 rounds with it.  I know of others who have also had moderate success with the Counter Sniper, but I understand not everyone has, and they had some quality issues early on.  I would like to think that is not the case now, and that the quality I am witness to is exemplary of some improvement to their product line.  In terms relative to value for money, I believe the Counter Sniper is comparable to the Nightforce, as is the Leapers brand, which is at the low end economically.  The three are certainly worlds apart when it comes to the question of $. 

I am no expert, I speak only from my own experience and from the limited objective criteria that can be researched.  You get what you pay for, and if you can afford the cost of a Nightforce scope, then I suggest that you should consider that as a viable purchase, and realize that you will be paying mostly for a name brand, albeit with a solid reputation, but certainly not the best bargain out there.  I would be happy to use nothing but Nightforce optics for all my long range shooting, but I cannot afford it, and have to look for practical alternatives.  Counter Sniper is one of those.  If the 3-25 x 56 CS that I am using is any indication, I have high hopes for the 4-48.  On that measure, I stand by my original comparison.

[jtb33]

My experience with both the Counter Sniper and the Nightforce is comparable.  Sorry to hear yours may not have been, but then I am relatively new to both, having only recently acquired a Counter Sniper scope and having only shot about 200 rounds with it.  I know of others who have also had moderate success with the Counter Sniper, but I understand not everyone has, and they had some quality issues early on.  I would like to think that is not the case now, and that the quality I am witness to is exemplary of some improvement to their product line.  In terms relative to value for money, I believe the Counter Sniper is comparable to the Nightforce, as is the Leapers brand, which is at the low end economically.  The three are certainly worlds apart when it comes to the question of $.

I am no expert, I speak only from my own experience and from the limited objective criteria that can be researched.  You get what you pay for, and if you can afford the cost of a Nightforce scope, then I suggest that you should consider that as a viable purchase, and realize that you will be paying mostly for a name brand, albeit with a solid reputation, but certainly not the best bargain out there.  I would be happy to use nothing but Nightforce optics for all my long range shooting, but I cannot afford it, and have to look for practical alternatives.  Counter Sniper is one of those.  If the 3-25 x 56 CS that I am using is any indication, I have high hopes for the 4-48.  On that measure, I stand by my original comparison.

Before I even start, here are some threads discussing Counter Sniper optics:

http://opticstalk.com/topic11448_page1.html

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1349027&page=1

Now, since Nightforce optics are "comparable" (your word), you should be able to find similar discussions about how bad they are.  I'd love to see a couple links, because I can't find any.

Counter Sniper is ALL marketing.  There's no substance to it.  They are a "Dark Ops" brand.  If you know who that is, you won't need to read much further.  Would you buy a Hesse AR15?

So what is "Bertillium Zantitium" that CSO advertises?  lol

PLEASE explain to me how this reticle functions:

Here, let me help:

Two aiming points?  How do you adjust the second one?

Contract overrun?  BS.  Find me a SINGLE INSTANCE of this optic being purchased by any US Military group.  Yes, military purchases are publicly search-able and scope purchases are NOT "Top Secret".

Well, let's start off with the basics of a scope's function; what do you need from a variable power scope?

Reliability and repeatability.  Ever run a box test with a counter-sniper scope?  It will fail.  Then try it with a Nightforce. 

Drop your counter-sniper scope from 3 feet.  Will it survive?  I'd tell you with a 99% probability, something on it will break -  whether it's the plastic turrets or the glue that holds the reticle in place.  Drop a Nightforce from that same height and it won't have a single issue. 

How's the CSO warranty?  How's NF warranty compare?  I won't even ask where CSO are made...

Optical clarity. Can you see through it clearly at all variable ranges?  There should be no chromatic aberrations at any magnification level.  There should be no blur at any part of the scope (edges, etc).  The reticle should be usable and unobtrusive.  Ever figure out that reticle yet?

Oh, wow - look what I've been missing!

"Weapon Mountable Optical Gunsights"?!  <laughs>  In titanium even!

Could your Counter Sniper scope handle this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpO8X4E_9vs& or this: 

[308reloaded]

all I want is a good scope that does not cost more than the weapon it self.  I am going with Nikon this time. mil dot would be nice but all I ever learned was kentucky windage,  to much of a hillbilly to change now. 

[survivalshop]

UMMM , if I wanted a hammer ,I would buy one .

No doubt the US optics is a good scope & would take a beating , but I find testing like that to be more of a "Jackass the movie "type stuff .

And just how much does that scope weigh ?

That is, a funny reticle on that CS scope , But than again , they thought the Mildot was odd when it first came out .

Just can't grasp the CS idea though. That's one busy reticle .

[Matt.Cross]

Just can't grasp the CS idea though. That's one busy reticle .

Just wait till you see a Horus reticle, it's hard to convince yourself that someone isn't playing a major prank on you, but some people are crazy about them.

[308reloaded]

I would like to look thru the CS scope to see if that retical blocks sight pic. at all.  the time it would take me to use everthing there shot would be gone. 

I will try mil dot for first time on my next scope, and now all this.  what happed to K.I.S.S.

[benjammin]

Will you find any negative posts about the quality of Nightforce optics?  I doubt that.  What you will find is a plethora of posts about how expensive they are.  Expensive is fine if the quality is there AND you have the money for it.  Speaking for myself and maybe a couple other competitors, I can't justify the added cost yet for a Nightforce for the simple reason that it doesn't add any quality to the shooting I do.  I will admit I am not the best shot in town, so perhaps if I work at it and get real good, someday I will feel the need to spend that much for a quality optic.  Until then, I will make do with less expensive quality optics.  I read the entire thread of the Snipers Hide forum and their rant did not convince me that the Counter Sniper scopes I've been using are somehow inferior.  Yes, the reticle is busy, no it does not interfere with my target shooting.  As for the double cross hairs, I believe someone else on this forum addressed the notion of calibrating the scope to the drop of the bullet for a given load so that once the primary poa is established and the drop is known, the distance for the secondary poa can be accurately determined.  Whether the secondary cross hairs are adjustable or not is irrelevent, if you know at what distance the bullet intersects that point once you've sighted in the primary aiming point.  But I digress.

To reiterate, my experience with the CS product to date does not corroborate the conclusions and rantings of other shooters who may or may not have field tested one.  I am not yet finished with my evaluation completely, but feel comfortable with my findings so far.  The optics are clean and clear, the zero is repeatable, and the graduations are precise.  I feel it is adequate for the price and therefore compares well to the Nightforce on that premise.  It is neither as expensive and perhaps not as durable, but I have yet to make that determination.  I haven't broken it yet, and that is under conditions that other less expensive scopes have failed under.  I do not subscribe to the notion that CS is all marketing, nor do I believe that all Nightforce scopes ever built are perfect and none have ever failed under any conditions.  I believe each is ideal in it's own niche of the market.  If I have a problem with my Counter Sniper scope, I will be happy to post my experience here and elsewhere, as I have no stake in the company and nothing to gain from any endorsement.  I do not believe that bashing a product line just because it is the popular thing to do is very constructive, but I do believe all are entitled to an opinion, and I respect that others might be averse to owning anything other than the highest quality money can buy.  I would not fault anyone for that.

If anyone does not like my opinion, please feel free to ignore it.  I learned long ago that free advice is worth about what you pay for it.  I am certainly no authority when it comes to scopes, so please determine for yourself what will work for you.  If I ever get enough moolah together, I may have to put an NXS on one of my rigs so I can have some bragging rights up at the range.

[Matt.Cross]

I learned long ago that free advice is worth about what you pay for it.  I am certainly no authority when it comes to scopes, so please determine for yourself what will work for you.  If I ever get enough moolah together, I may have to put an NXS on one of my rigs so I can have some bragging rights up at the range.

That is a CLASSIC quote my friend, and I thank you for it. LOL

Made my day. <thumbsup>

[hobbesgunner]

Spoke with shop owner just yesterday about this very thing. He shoots long range and benchrest competition. I know that $$ is no object to him for equipment, all his stuff is custom. He's used Leupold glass for years but has changed his four competition guns over to Sightrons this last year as have many others he shoots with. Adjustment, repeatability is more accurate he claims...as for high end glass, like NF and Schmit Bender, it's durability your paying for..adjustments can only be made so accurate, glass just so clear...his recommendation was after $800-$1000 your wasting $$$ on a hunting/ target scope. I've got a broad range of optics from cheap Bushnells to Leupold LR scopes (no NF yet)and I've decided you definitely get what you pay for..but if I was to find myself falling out of a helicopter, I'd rather I landed on a $2500 scope than a $500 one........thankfully woodchucks don’t require drops from aircraft.....This isn't gospel..to each his own..its just what I took away from a conversation with someone vastly more experienced than myself......That said,I'd still like a NF just for wow factor ..I get older but refuse  to grow up...Still want shiniest coolest toys on the playground..

[SWshooter]

As to the relationship between the price of the scope and the price of the gun. If you put a $500 scope on a $100 gun, the combination will shoot as tight as the gun is capable. If you put a $100 scope on a $500 gun, the combination will shoot as good as the scope is capable. Also, I might add, you can't hit what you can't see. I have no problem putting a $600 Leupold on a $250 used Marlin lever gun.