Bad Wolf Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Recently my departments SWAT team ordered 4 KAC SR-15 Carbines. The didn't want the IOU a barrel from La Rue wait time. These were purchased as sniper rifles and I know the average sniper engagement for police is 77 yards. These 16" chrome lined barrels are grouping 1.5-2" at 100 yards. To me these carbine are more battle rifles than sniper rifles. These rifles are shot suppressed but have no adjustable gas block. My theory, untested, is the group might close up with some gas tuning. Anyone have experience with these rifle or a thought as to why the grouping is so poor. These rifles have been shoot by multiple people with the same results and tested against Rem. 700 (sub-moa groups). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 wow. you could buy a 2 moa carbine from DPMS and save $3500 each! turning down gas might help indirectly for the average shooter...but trained guys like swat snipers most likely already have the basic shooting skills down well enough that it wouldn't make a huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 What's the aprox. round count of the rifles ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Approx 1000-1500 rounds as of now. (I keep the brass for my own stuff so I'm sitting on a nice little load of brass) Edited March 20, 2015 by Bad Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKSHEEP Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Trying not to be a dick here but they bought the wrong tool for the job, a 16" mil spec carbine is not a sniper rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaRKle! Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Recently my departments SWAT team ordered 4 KAC SR-15 Carbines. The didn't want the IOU a barrel from La Rue wait time. These were purchased as sniper rifles and I know the average sniper engagement for police is 77 yards. These 16" chrome lined barrels are grouping 1.5-2" at 100 yards. To me these carbine are more battle rifles than sniper rifles. These rifles are shot suppressed but have no adjustable gas block. My theory, untested, is the group might close up with some gas tuning. Anyone have experience with these rifle or a thought as to why the grouping is so poor. These rifles have been shoot by multiple people with the same results and tested against Rem. 700 (sub-moa groups).Wait, SR-25 or SR-15 (title says one thing and post says another)? What ammo are you guys using? If they are SR-25s, which model SR-25 did you guys get?Shooting a boltgun isn't the same as a semi-auto. I've learned from here that things such as follow-through are much more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Trying not to be a dick here but they bought the wrong tool for the job, a 16" mil spec carbine is not a sniper rifle. I completely agree. I was told pretty much to shut up when I suggest a custom build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Wait, SR-25 or SR-15 (title says one thing and post says another)? What ammo are you guys using? If they are SR-25s, which model SR-25 did you guys get? Shooting a boltgun isn't the same as a semi-auto. I've learned from here that things such as follow-through are much more important. Crap I just saw that I fat fingered it. They are SR-25 E2 ACC with a few minor upgrades complete with can, Night Force optics and NV. It using 168gr Match Kings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaRKle! Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Crap I just saw that I fat fingered it. They are SR-25 E2 ACC with a few minor upgrades complete with can, Night Force optics and NV. It using 168gr Match Kings.Oh wow, the latest and greatest. I'm surprised you went with the ACC and not the APC (non-chrome-lined barrel and heavier barrel profile).I know Knight's designed the rifles so that they could be shot suppressed and unsuppressed without an adjustable gas block, so I don't think the groups are opening up due to overgassing. It sounds like you see the larger groups unsuppressed too so that shouldn't be it. If you want to however, you can try a heavier buffer like an H3 or H4 (IIRC SR-25s ship with an H2 buffer).How much experience do the shooters have with semi-auto .308s? Even going from AR-15s to my .308 gas guns took a good bit of learning. Have you tried putting the rifles in a sled? Edited March 20, 2015 by FaRKle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I had no say in what was ordered. Sorry if I mislead. I have have no been able to to shoot these guns yet, out with ankle surgery. These guys have very little experience with these and if there is any correction to be done to the guns it will have to be done by KAC. I am just trying to trouble shoot from the house to help out. When I was called for help I told them to send the guns back and get bolt guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaRKle! Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) I had no say in what was ordered. Sorry if I mislead. I have have no been able to to shoot these guns yet, out with ankle surgery. Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, rather the department.These guys have very little experience with these and if there is any correction to be done to the guns it will have to be done by KAC. I am just trying to trouble shoot from the house to help out. When I was called for help I told them to send the guns back and get bolt guns.I agree if the rifles need any correction KAC should do it. I was trying to find ways of partitioning that out. Until you're able to prove that it is the rifles and not the shooters though there will be doubt. If it was just one rifle, I'd be more inclined to say it's the rifle, however if all of your SR-25s are doing it I'm more inclined to say it's the shooters' lack of experience on .308 gas guns (this is without any better knowledge about the shooters). IIRC the USAMU thought the M110s had terrible accuracy when they first received them, but it turned out to be technique and fundamentals which a .308 gas gun requires more of.Hopefully you heal up quickly and show them how it's done :). Edited March 20, 2015 by FaRKle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKSHEEP Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Straight from the horses mouth, 1.5" - 2" MOA. http://tinyurl.com/k2jdt3w Edited March 21, 2015 by BLKSHEEP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaRKle! Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Straight from the horses mouth, 1.5" - 2" MOA. http://tinyurl.com/k2jdt3wOn that note, what do the test targets that shipped with the guns look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 "NOW WRT the ACC series of guns - we have NOT determined yet what the ES of commercial guns shall be. The intent is to hold the guns to at least a 1.5-2MOA standard, depending upon what the first 300-500 of those guns performs. These guns are not designed to be Match rifles but true 7.62 Battle Rifles. The first few guns are shooting exceptionally well, however we do not expect sub-moa performance over the larger production runs." -Kevin from KAC. I guess this says it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malig8r Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Knights makes GREAT battle rifles which can sometimes in the right hands be good and accurate at distance but if they were looking for true sniper rifles they went the wrong route IMO. Don't get me wrong I have full faith & confidence in the platform and even own a SR-15...I know these are SR-25s...but given the average distance of a SWAT sniper engagement 1.5 - 2 moa should be a non issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Guys I agree with everyone who has made a statement about them buying the wrong gun. After what I have told them and what yall have said I found out a few minutes ago they are getting new bolt guns. not sure what yet. I'd like to see the FN myself, but I still love my 700. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Interesting . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robocop1051 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Straight from the horses mouth, 1.5" - 2" MOA. Well... there you have it. If you need to talk to someone in LE about using a semi auto for a sniper rifle, we started using 16" LaRue OBR's in our State. I can get you in touch with a local SWAT/Sniper Sgt who made that change. For what it's worth.... LaRue expedites your build if you fly to TX and pick it up. You actually get to build the rifle in their shop, to your snipers spec's. Their tolerances are so tight on their sniper builds, that you have to bring the exact ammo you plan on working with so they can hand fit the the bolt and headspace. Despite what some of the nay sayers might chime in with... 16" is plenty for LE Sniper work. If you can't shoot sub-1/2"MOA with a LaRue... it's not the rifles fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 We had decided to go with LaRue but at the time they were shipping the OBR with a throw down barrel and an IOU for the match barrel. It was at the time that they had started to make the barrels in house. I'm right down the road from LaRue. We couldn't wait for the new barrels do they ordered KAC. Or so this is what I am told. What I am telling you is only what I was told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaRKle! Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) If your dept has already invested in a bunch of equipment for the SR-25s they can also look at the LMT MWS. It has quick change barrels and a proven line of match barrels. Their stainless barrels are made by Rock Creek. Mine shoots sub-MOA.BTW, if your department is looking to get rid of the SR-25's, I'd be happy to buy an ACC upper! ;) Edited March 21, 2015 by FaRKle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 A barrel change and trigger change would make your crop of SR-25s completely different performers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 A barrel change and trigger change would make your crop of SR-25s completely different performers. I agree here. Also my LaRue (I am not on my dept. team) is a half MOA shooter. It's too bad you (your dept) couldn't wait on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 What was wrong with their existing rifles that they couldn't wait for the LaRue's ? The way I look at it , just more waste of tax payer $$ , because of incompetent purchasing. I know that doesn't help , but not being an LEO , thats tax payer $$ , that could have been used for something else , that's truly needed for the Dept.. Now they plan on purchasing more rifles , hope they did better then the first brain trust . <dontknow> :soap: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 For being the third largest Sheriff's Office in the nation we just started our team and it was like open season on buying crap. Most of it came from DHS grants. So they had nothing to start with. At least the KAC can be used as a battle rifle and not a complete loss. As most LEO can prob tell you most decisions made by command don't make since in larger departments. I miss my small department team. I suggested and offered to do the barrel change, and again I was told to shut up. I must make too much sense being that I am always being told to shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 You should find a way to do just ONE of the rifles, and shoot them altogether. When they try to figure out WTF happened, THEN you drop the news on them... <lmao> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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