Customer Trust, a Tale of Two Companies...

[FaRKle!]

In my industry there's been a tremendous amount of consolidation both on the customer and supplier side that continues to this day. What that means for a supplier like me is that every customer makes up a significant portion of my revenue each year, and to lose them would be a significant loss. I'd say that the most important tenet my company follows to prevent that is building and maintaining customer trust.

The customers trusting us to follow through on our commitments, trusting us to back our products up, and trusting that we deliver the performance required to fulfill their needs is what makes us an industry leader. When your customers trust you, they want you to succeed and are willing and happy to aide you in your development to satisfy their requirements. Without that collaboration and incremental feedback, it's much more difficult to succeed and win business. Customer trust is an invaluable asset.

Similar to my customers, I also believe that the companies that I spend money with should treat my customer trust with high regard. Recently, I dealt with two companies in one experience whose handling of my customer trust were polar opposites of each other. Those companies were Elftmann Tactical and Weaponsmart.

The experience began with me ordering an ELF AR-10 trigger through the group buy here from Weaponsmart. I was a bit hesitant at first because the wait for the trigger was a bit long, but it arrived just fine. I installed the trigger in my .308 according to whatever materials were shipped with it (which I would find later were lacking), and adjusted the trigger pull a bit lighter to see how it felt.

The first time I took it out to the range to test I encountered many malfunctions. The trigger wouldn't reset most of the time. When I arrived home I re-read all of the included material that came with the trigger and still wasn't able to find any answers to my issue. I turned to YouTube next, and finally found a video cautioning against lightening the trigger pull weight too much or the issue I encountered would appear (it also cautioned against making the pull too heavy to the point of malfunction as well). Armed with this knowledge I remedied my issue and saw no malfunctions while dry firing.

The next time out at the range I was excited to see if this trigger changed how well I could shoot groups. Right from the first magazine though I encountered more malfunctions. This time I was getting light primer strikes on at least one round per five round group. I had never experienced light primer strikes in this rifle prior to this trigger (prior triggers were ALG QMS and Geissele SD-E). I went through approximately 30 rounds before growing frustrated and deadlining the gun for the day.

When I returned home I decided to contact Elftmann Tactical about my issue. I tried calling them first a couple times during their business hours, but they never picked up and their messages were full so I resorted to their online contact form. Days went by before I received an email back instructing me to call a different number. The next couple business days I tried calling that number but nobody picked up the phone. I tried calling in the morning, middle of the day, and afternoon with no answer. This didn't give me much faith that Elftmann would be able to help me, but it was the only real option I felt I had.

Finally, I was able to reach Art Elftmann on one call and he seemed genuinely surprised and concerned when I explained the issues I encountered and asked for his guidance. He told me that a new revision of the trigger was out (new housing) and that he wanted me to send my current trigger to his personal address so he could inspect the trigger and find out what went wrong with it. He was very straightforward and stressed that they stand behind their products. I was told that I'd receive a new trigger that was of the latest and greatest variety and that Art himself would set the pull weight to what he considered optimal and reliable. With things looking up I packed up my trigger with all of its original materials and packaging and sent it off.

After a not unreasonable amount of time I came home to find a package from Elftmann Tactical at my door. I was excited for this new trigger and to experience all of the excellent characteristics that people here and elsewhere had praised. Upon picking up the package though something struck me as odd. The packaging was much smaller than the one I had sent off. As I opened it two baggies fell out, a brand new set of Elftmann's anti-walk pin set, and a plain plastic bag with nothing but a trigger. This was a bit disappointing because I was expecting a brand new trigger of the latest version as I was told over the phone. Furthermore, no retail packaging/materials were included. As I took the trigger out of the bag I was even more disappointed because the serial number on this unit was older than the one I had sent back. Upon further inspection of the wear surfaces I could see that this new trigger had much more use on it than my original one did too. I was angry, but I knew I could get over it as long as the trigger worked.

I installed the trigger back into my .308 and decided to dry fire it to verify its function before validating performance at the range. The first couple of dry fires worked smoothly, however shortly thereafter a failure to reset occurred. I paused with a confused experession and cautiously continued to see if the malfunction would occur again. Sure enough, within the next five dry fires another failure to reset occurred. I continued this cycle very slowly and firmly following through and holding the trigger back, then lightly releasing with my finger to see if it would stay back and was able to reproduce this with ease.

Immediately after I sent Elftmann Tactical an email with the issues. A couple business days went by with no response before I decided to start calling them. Just like before my first couple calls went unanswered, but finally Art picked up the phone again. I told Art I was experiencing issues again and asked him to verify my install method. He said what I did was correct and then told me to play around with the pull weight till the malfunction stopped. I replied that I hadn't touched it and didn't want to touch it because he committed to setting it at the spot he deemed optimal. I then asked him if he had found the root cause of the issue with my previous trigger and why I was sent a trigger that was older and had more wear on it than a new and latest revision that he had told be prior. He had no answers for either questions and didn't want to continue the conversation at this point. He rushed me away off the phone by closing with a proposal of me breaking in the trigger with a couple hundred rounds and playing with the pull settings to see if things work out. He said it didn't matter what I did with the trigger and if I broke it or it failed that they would replace it. After that he hung up.

The message he spoke and the message I received from this were very different. Verbally he said he stood behind his products, but the actual message I got was that he didn't really care about my issues and wanted me to just go away.

This also taught me a few other things. The lack of answers to the root cause failure of my first trigger made me question the competence of their engineering method. I have a term for companies and people whose solutions to issues is simply "swap the part out till one works." That term is "swap monkey." Swap monkeys don't solve problems, just cover them up, and that's what I'd characterize Elftmann Tactical as. The second thing I learned was that Elftmann Tactical's claim that they stand behind their products is pure BS. Standing behind their products would not shift the action item of diagnosing the issue purely to me. Neither would it involve telling me I need to spend over $100 (literally said hundreds of rounds) breaking in their trigger to see if it works. Given that the trigger I received already looked well used, how was I to know it wasn't broken in already? Finally, this experience taught me that Art Elftmann doesn't do his due diligence. When you personally commit to me that you're going to optimize the trigger pull, you had better also verify that it works. Failing to do that says your work is sloppy and untrustworthy.

The day after that call I decided I didn't want to spend any more time or resources on this trigger and I didn't care for a new one. I didn't want it to succeed, I just wanted it gone and my money back. Just like before, I tried calling Elftmann Tactical a couple times and every time there was no answer.

There was now only one more avenue to try as an honest person, and I felt really bad doing it, but would give it a shot. I emailed Weaponsmart, detailed my exchanges with Elftmann Tactical, and asked them if they would be willing to help me return the trigger to them. I explicitly stated that if there was anything I could do to help them receive return credit from Elftmann Tactical that I would be more than happy to do it. I really hated bringing them into this because this issue wasn't their fault, wasn't their responsibility, and would likely cost them some.

In an about face from my previous experiences, I received an email within 24hrs from Jay, who said he was disappointed with the way Elftmann handled my issue and was absolutely willing to help me return the trigger to him and issue a refund. He also offered me some possible solutions for getting in contact with Elftmann Tactical more easily in case I wished to solve the issue, but said he understood if I didn't want to deal with them anymore as well. Logistics were worked out and throughout this exchange Jay's responses were always very prompt and helpful.

I shipped the trigger and anti-walk pin kit to Weaponsmart, and received an email on a Saturday confirming that it had arrived and asking me how I'd prefer a refund. Once I replied back Jay immediately issued the refund and sent a confirmation email to me of it. He also apologized for what I had gone through and wished me the best. I replied that I was grateful for his support and reiterated that I was willing to help them however I could to get return credit from Elftmann. Jay promptly replied that I shouldn't worry about that and even if he lost money on this transaction it was most important that I as a customer was taken care of.

I can confidently say that Jay and Weaponsmart have my full customer trust. Their willingness to help me when they had no obligation to do so and very speedy replies showed me that they really stand behind what they sell. Their follow up of my return said that I can have faith and trust what they say and commit to.

These are all complete opposites of what Elftmann Tactical told me about themselves. I could care less if Elftmann Tactical fails now, and a part of me hopes they do so that nobody else has to go through the wretched process of dealing with them. On the contrary, I want Weaponsmart to succeed, and am looking to see if they carry anything I might want so I can purchase from and support them. They have rightfully earned my full customer trust.

TL;DR

-Elftmann Tactical CS and integrity sucks, don't buy their crap.

-Weaponsmart is an honest vendor that you can fully trust.

Edited June 4, 2015 by FaRKle!

[Toolndie7]

Wow. I recently had a similar *shitty interaction with a company. Glad to hear you got the hell out with a refund, I dont think I would ever consider Elftmann products after hearing that.

[Robocop1051]

You paint a very descriptive picture my friend. I'm glad I dodged that bullet. Situations like this is what makes companies like MechArmor Defense shine.

[survivalshop]

 Kinda  LOQUACIOUS read  <laughs>   Good you got your cash back , still makes me wonder why they or he , just didn't send you a new Trigger group to begin with .  <dontknow> . I don't see anyone else having your problem with this trigger or is there ?

 

 

[98Z5V]

Shepp had a reset issue, on the range here during his visit.  Quickly found out what it was - follow through on the trigger pull, intentionally, and you had to manually reset it by pushing the trigger forward after that follow through.  If you didn't follow through, and just shot, the dicsonnector wouldn't catch the hammer, and it would get caught at the half-cocked position - not enough force to set off the next primer.

 

What we worked through on the range was just to keep shooting for the day - follow through and manually reset.  It worked like that.

 

I'm sure he'll jump in here and let us know what's up with it now.

[98Z5V]

The two things in common here - the trigger was adjusted, in both cases, prior to ever being fired.  If it's an adjustable trigger, as advertised, you should be able to adjust it.  I dropped my AR-15 Match trigger in as it was shipped, and shot it.  It works wonderfully.  I think I'll try to adjust it to the point of failure, and see if it can be adjusted back again.

[blue109]

That's why I don't buy adjustable triggers lol. Plug & play is how I roll.

Sure glad my 308 ran from the go. Ain't nobody got time for troubleshooting.

[FaRKle!]

The two things in common here - the trigger was adjusted, in both cases, prior to ever being fired.  If it's an adjustable trigger, as advertised, you should be able to adjust it.  I dropped my AR-15 Match trigger in as it was shipped, and shot it.  It works wonderfully.  I think I'll try to adjust it to the point of failure, and see if it can be adjusted back again.

I guarantee you can. I was able to reproduce the initial problem the first time around. Adjust the pull too light and the trigger won't reset. Adjust it too heavy and the hammer won't release.

The more I think about how they went about addressing (or not really addressing) the issues the more I scratch my head and wonder how anybody in engineering can follow their thought process...

The second time I spoke with Art I told him I didn't adjust anything from where he set it and he said that it's OK if I did and encouraged me to play around with it even going so far as to take the whole thing apart and put it back together. How are you supposed to diagnose an issue if you introduce extra variability by playing around with it? Wouldn't you want to make sure nothing was touched so you have an established and tracked procedure of events and status? Partition testing is a core competency of root cause analysis and what they told me went completely against that. Swap monkey indeed.

[FaRKle!]

More engineering thought about Elftmann's lack of engineering...

Thinking about the trigger itself, the AR-10 model is billed as being better for harder primers due the the heavier hammer. This doesn't make physical sense to me given some rational assumptions about the system (since I doubt anybody, even Elftmann, has taken any hard data).

We can assume that the heavier hammer is the only difference because the product description has the same characteristics for the hammer spring across multiple triggers (both the AR-10, service, and 3-gun triggers say they have a .043 "double-double" wound, polished, piano wire hammer spring, and two of them also have the same pull weight adjustment range).

If we go back to basic physics, we know that energy is conserved. For an increase in the mass of the hammer we will see a corresponding decrease in its acceleration. This means increasing the mass will change the speed at which the hammer hits the firing pin (slower), but it shouldn't change the force (since the kinetic energy of the hammer hitting is the same). Therefore, since all the energy is stored in the spring while cocked, and that doesn't change going between their triggers all you're really doing is increasing the lock time, and not increasing the force/reliability of ignition in any way.

Edited June 5, 2015 by FaRKle!

[shepp]

I don't have time to read all this at the moment but yes I did have an issue and I've yet to get to shoot again (I think I'll bring it when I shoot on the 19th) I was told by Someone after on here I may have adjusted it to light. Now I'm worried......

[shepp]

Ok I lied I stayed up and read the whole thing that really sucks. I'm hoping I can get mine to run I'll keep you all posted

[survivalshop]

More engineering thought about Elftmann's lack of engineering...

Thinking about the trigger itself, the AR-10 model is billed as being better for harder primers due the the heavier hammer. This doesn't make physical sense to me given some rational assumptions about the system (since I doubt anybody, even Elftmann, has taken any hard data).

We can assume that the heavier hammer is the only difference because the product description has the same characteristics for the hammer spring across multiple triggers (both the AR-10, service, and 3-gun triggers say they have a .043 "double-double" wound, polished, piano wire hammer spring, and two of them also have the same pull weight adjustment range).

If we go back to basic physics, we know that energy is conserved. For an increase in the mass of the hammer we will see a corresponding decrease in its acceleration. This means increasing the mass will change the speed at which the hammer hits the firing pin (slower), but it shouldn't change the force (since the kinetic energy of the hammer hitting is the same). Therefore, since all the energy is stored in the spring while cocked, and that doesn't change going between their triggers all you're really doing is increasing the lock time, and not increasing the force/reliability of ignition in any way.

 

   What gets me is , I can take any AR 15 FCG & set off any primer , be it a 308 or 5.56/.223 ( granted , they have much larger components ), but you can't do the same with the Modular FCG like this one & others from what I have read . The fact that a Titanium firing pin is needed to proper set off hard ComBloc primers , is troubling . I believe its how the system is made , maybe because of its compact package , being Modular .

  It is probably more of geometry of the system , that gives it this slight flaw . I was told that just using a heavier Hammer spring doesn't solve the problem & even adds to Trigger release problems . Which might be why setting the release too high or low causes problems .

 

   I still don't see why the Co. didn't just replace your Trigger Module , with a new unit . All kinds of thoughts go through my head of why they didn't .

 

  The MechArmor Modular Trigger is my first one & I'm very pleased with it . i never plan on using ComBloc ammo , so I have no concerns with it . I also do not like Adj. Trigger systems , I don't like any thing that can loosen or come off , with in the FCG . I can see uses for them , but I personally ,have none .

[planeflyer21]

More engineering thought about Elftmann's lack of engineering...

Thinking about the trigger itself, the AR-10 model is billed as being better for harder primers due the the heavier hammer. This doesn't make physical sense to me given some rational assumptions about the system (since I doubt anybody, even Elftmann, has taken any hard data).

We can assume that the heavier hammer is the only difference because the product description has the same characteristics for the hammer spring across multiple triggers (both the AR-10, service, and 3-gun triggers say they have a .043 "double-double" wound, polished, piano wire hammer spring, and two of them also have the same pull weight adjustment range).

If we go back to basic physics, we know that energy is conserved. For an increase in the mass of the hammer we will see a corresponding decrease in its acceleration. This means increasing the mass will change the speed at which the hammer hits the firing pin (slower), but it shouldn't change the force (since the kinetic energy of the hammer hitting is the same). Therefore, since all the energy is stored in the spring while cocked, and that doesn't change going between their triggers all you're really doing is increasing the lock time, and not increasing the force/reliability of ignition in any way.

 

So the simple solution would be to give the heavy hammer a longer distance in which to accelerate.  Move the sear, remove metal here, add metal there.

 

Sounds like something an engineer would LOVE to do!  <laughs>

 

 

It certainly does suck when customer service of the worst kind interferes with what could be a decent product...if they worked to fix it.  Very reminiscent of my friend's Hogan .308 experience.

[mrmackc]

Well More time to accelerate would also increase the locktime. The energy and acceleration more than likely is a factor of the hammer spring's ability to quickly expend the stored energy. If a heavier hammer would do the trick, why skeletonize the hammer on the 1911 .45? I will have to stick to Bill Geissle as to how to build a trigger unit and David Tubb on how to build a winning target rifle.

Like my old Daddy said , "If you get away from Camel cigarettes , Tinsley chewing tobacco, and Folgers Coffee you are just fartting against the wind"

[FaRKle!]

The MechArmor Modular Trigger is my first one & I'm very pleased with it.

 

I was initially worried with the MechArmor/Velocity trigger since the design doesn't seem terribly different, however that one has worked 100% for me so far in the same rifle.

 

Well More time to accelerate would also increase the locktime. The energy and acceleration more than likely is a factor of the hammer spring's ability to quickly expend the stored energy. If a heavier hammer would do the trick, why skeletonize the hammer on the 1911 .45?

You're correct that the kinetic energy delivered and acceleration are factors of the hammer spring since that's the only energy storing unit in the system. The rate at which it decompresses is determined by the mass it's pushing, initial amount of compression, and its spring constant.

My guess would be that people skeletonize hammers to decrease the lock time.

Edited June 5, 2015 by FaRKle!

[blue109]

I've seen it posted that the only difference in the timney 308/556 triggers is hammer weight. My 556 Tim won't fire my old Indian surplus. I've read people saying the 308 trigger fires anything. The internet is the internet so who knows how accurate that is. I'd like to get a 308 trigger and run them back to back on crappy ammo to see. Better yet, I'd like to get rid of this 300 rounds of old crappy ammo and never buy it again and not care anymore.

[survivalshop]

  All this lock time talk again , the lightening & Titanium firing pins & such all came about because of competitive precision shooting at long range & Competition hand gun matches . Does it help in groups & how they can be quickly acquired , yes , as far as competition matches , mostly , but all that Mico millisecond stuff ,not as much use in a combat or self defense firearm ,IMO .

 

  I will sacrifice a millisecond for proper function any day , you won't perceive it in a stressful situation , at any rate . 

 

 Some firearms are much simpler to gain lock time by lightening components , some , not so simple . The Hammer spring on a 1911 is a power house & you can easily remove weight from the Hammer to lower lock time & not effect function reliability  .

  There are progressive springs that can be used with these Modular FCG's , they may be using them already. <dontknow>