Not new to AR nor .308 but new to both in one package

[taylorkh]

My first "AR" was a Colt SP1 rifle in 1973. I was in a little gun shop in my home town while on leave from the Navy.  The shop had a habit of selling something which I had been saving up for a week before I came in with the money.  This time I was ready. I had two hundred dollar bills in my pocket and plans to purchase an AR-180 which had been sitting on their rack collecting dust for a couple of years.  I was chatting with one of the salesmen - I went to high school with his son - just catching up on town news.  A customer came in the door, walked up to the other salesman, pointed to the rack and walked out with MY AR-180! I was so mad I drove immediately to Edelmans (not the store in the movie The Survivors but the same chain) and purchase the SP1 for $217.  Yes I still have it. NO it is not for sale.

As to .308 (7.62) I have an M1a ca 1990 - back when they were made with GI parts, some bolt guns and used to have a CETME and an FAL parts kit gun.  Glad those last two are gone.  The next one to go is a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic ca. 1994.

It never was right. Initially it slung rounds side to side like a fire hose. I FREE floated the barrel and cured that. However, the throat was looooong.  It was not a question of seating a bullet within a couple of thousandths of the rifling. Rather I was lucky to get it withing a couple of 1/16"s of the rifling.  A Remington gunsmith confirmed that it was by design "liability reasons."  "If you wanted a match chamber you should have purchased a 40XB."   Not the right answer.  The thing has taken up space in the back of my safe for 20 years.  Recently a shooting buddy convinced me to break it out. "We can get it to shoot." Not!  To put it in perspective I have a Walmart grade 700 in i.30-06 - molded plastic stock, ADL finish, light hunting barrel and cheap scope which will group hand loaded hunting bullets or even pulled M80 ball better than the .308 will group Sierra Matchkings.  Therefore...

I have been looking to replace it - perhaps a match grade bolt gun, or a National Match M1a or... And last Friday my step-son said "get a .308 AR."  I have never considered that because they are not "standardized" in the manner of a .223 AR and my limited experience with them has not been positive.  Some research over the weekend pointed out that the DPMS form factor is sort of "standard". Armalite being in its own corner (by choice) and several outliers doing their own thing. And, some of the top end manufacturers (Knight Armament, Les Baer, Fulton) are following the DPMS pattern.

As to my experience...

A neighbor's son had a S&W M&P .308 - light 18" barrel.  He shot it at my range one time and then removed it from his $1,700 scope and installed a bolt gun under the scope.

And "Bubba" brought his home made parts kit rifle by to sight in.  The vendor failed to supply the receiver pins and as he wanted to go hunting the next day he went into the local Lowe,s home improvement store and found a couple of metric bolts which fit. It actually fired and would hit a basket ball at 100 yards and he was happy and went hunting - no sure for what.

My final experience is shooting my step-son's attorney's .308 carbine. It is typical "junk chic" pattern with everything including the kitchen sink and his lunch hanging off the key mods and slots. Not my idea of a rifle.

But I have persisted in my search. 

Knight Armament - the latest SR-25s have that modern look - like the handguard was shredded by a mortar round.

Les Baer - a little more to my liking - but considering the price more to their liking than mine

DPMS LR-380 - now that is more like it.  With a $1,200 MSRP for a 24" tube, free float handguard... not bad. The only down sides I see are the extruded upper (I have a couple in .223 and the are OK - just a little chunky to give them the rigidity of a thinner forged upper) and the standard AR trigger (easily corrected with a $200 - $300 replacement trigger).

Fulton Armory FAR-308-PVR - This seems to me the best deal around.  A 24" match barrel, free float tube with a slot for a handstop, offhand space, bench rest block or other match accessories , two stage trigger, and side cocking handle (much better to add an ergonomic stock - no charging handle in the way of the cheek rest) - all for $1,650.  That is a grand less than their entry level M14 (which interestingly is only a grand less than their top of the line M14 with a Kreiger barrel).  Delivery is ONLY 12 weeks - with luck.  I have a few more questions for them - they just opened a few minutes ago so I will end this monograph and give them a call. May well put on on order today.

Ken

 

[shepp]

Welcome from southern Wisconsin 

[planeflyer21]

Welcome from AZ!

[EngrBob]

Howdy from the Texas side of the border(s).

[Armed Eye Doc]

Another Texas welcome. 

[MikedaddyH]

Welcome from AZ l

[mrmackc]

Welcome from Central Texas. BTW, I've been told that DPMS makes the flowers for Fulton.

OI have a $799 DPMS factory built 16" Oracle that shoots a .75" group at 100 yrs. with Federal loaded M80 ammo that looks like military (brass is nasty looking) has a drop in 3 pound trigger, Tubb buffer spring  $200 Bushnell.308 BCD scope and the rest is stock. I did a light polishing on the upper and BCG, feed ramps. This is a bit  better than my national match .3006 Garand will do with 1962 

 

 

[washguy]

Welcome aboard from Texas       Build one yourself...heck I could have put one together while reading your intro......       Wash

[taylorkh]

Thanks for all the kind replies.  And a couple of special comments...

To mrmackc - Interesting about DPMS making the lowers.  I suspect that DPMS might supply forgings to Fulton but the final products look a little different especially the trigger guard and the front takedown pin "pocket" which on the latest DPMS looks "artsy." The AR platform is inherently accurate. I have only had one bad barrel (in a Delton kit). They were very good about it and it went back to the factory 3 times (then it went under the 12 pound hammer). About two years later I met some folks from Delton at a local gun show. It seems that back during one of the crazy periods they had hired a barrel maker who... let us say could not make a barrel to save his butt.  He made a couple of hundred before they fired him and apparently a few escaped. Mine probably being one of them. They offered to replace the barrel but I told them it had already been scrapped and replaced - with a great tube from Lothar-Walther.

and to Wash - I do not think I could collect the parts (and tools - all of mine are .223 size) to put together the rifle for what Fulton is selling the whole thing.  A friend of mine did a study and found that he was better off purchasing an entry level DPMS and adding bits and pieces to get it to the desired configuration. Not sure I agree - I hate to purchase something just to take off parts and throw them away.

As far as the .223s go... After purchasing the SP1 rifle mentioned in the original post and an SP1 carbine in 1980 (traded in a Thompson Contender pistol for it after destroying two of Thompson's indestructable Lobo scopes) I have in fact rolled my own. Now a days I just build the upper and clip it onto one of my lowers. I suspect the .380 might grow another upper some day. More likely a buttstock like this first https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/adjustable-buttstock-ar-10.html#

Ken

 

 

[washguy]

Lork       I say go for that pig of a rifle...if all your doing is punchin paper..  10 lbs 10 oz bare then  some nice optics   and you got a sweet rifle that can double as a boat anchor                           Wash

Fulton Armory FAR-308-PVR - This seems to me the best deal around.  A 24" match barrel, free float tube with a slot for a handstop, offhand space, bench rest block or other match accessories , two stage trigger, and side cocking handle (much better to add an ergonomic stock - no charging handle in the way of the cheek rest) - all for $1,650.  That is a grand less than their entry level M14 (which interestingly is only a grand less than their top of the line M14 with a Kreiger barrel).  Delivery is ONLY 12 weeks - with luck.  I have a few more questions for them - they just opened a few minutes ago so I will end this monograph and give them a call. May well put on on order today.

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by washguy

[taylorkh]

10lb 10oz is not too bad to get started.  My service rifle class AR is a little over 12# and my .22 LR match rifle (Compass Lake Engineering upper, my lower and lead shot in the buttstock pocket for balance) is between 13 - 14 depending on what accessories I have on the rail (hand stop & sling, offhand spacer or bipod). Heavy is steady

Ken

p.s. This rifle will hopefully only be used to punch paper and steel. However, if it ever has to fire a shot in anger it should be effective easily to 600 - 800 yards or more.

[washguy]

Lork     my last 2 started at 6lbs with mag no optics....you must be a big ol boy...or you like punishment    lol       Wash

[82HALO]

Welcome from Pennsylvania!

[taylorkh]

Thanks to all for the continuing welcomes and comments. I have the Fulton cannon on order. Should be about 12 weeks I am told. In the mean time I am stocking up on magazines, spare parts etc. I have a scope to start out with (Leupold 6.5 - 20 EFR Target) and an AR mount.  I hope the 12 weeks turns out to be close.  My first Clark custom 1911 (ca. 1978) was supposed to take 2 months. I finally got my pistol back NINE months later.  But well worth the wait. On the other hand I had Clark build me a custom revolver a couple of years back. It was supposed to be 3 - 5 months.  Got a call in 5 WEEKS. It was ready!

As far as ArmaLIGHT rifles... my most recent mouse build was a 20" pencil barrel from Green Mountain Barrels. Chrome lined, 1 in 12 twist. Intended as a plinker.  I put it on an Anderson "Sport" upper with a free float tube handguard. It turned out to be so accurate that it is now my light weight match rifle.  I have a Lyman globe site with clear plastic apertures mounted to a sight base from Champion's Choice which is mounted not to the barrel but to the flash hider which has been turned down to .750" and Locktited in place.  The read sight is a modified DPMS A2 mounted to the flat top rail.  It sports a Merit VIA adjustable aperture. It will shoot better with 55 grain ball handloads than most of my range visitors can do with their scoped ARs.  Perhaps I need to drop $600 - $800 and put some match sights on the Fulton   I learned to shoot with iron sights and I guess you never forget - even when the eyes get older.

Ken

[MikedaddyH]

Well at the very least you got your order in ! And should get delivery before the election ! 

Until then you can watch the #88 car be driven by my driver Jeff Gordon ! Lol !

[shepp]

14 minutes ago, taylorkh said:

Thanks to all for the continuing welcomes and comments. I have the Fulton cannon on order. Should be about 12 weeks I am told. In the mean time I am stocking up on magazines, spare parts etc. I have a scope to start out with (Leupold 6.5 - 20 EFR Target) and an AR mount.  I hope the 12 weeks turns out to be close.  My first Clark custom 1911 (ca. 1978) was supposed to take 2 months. I finally got my pistol back NINE months later.  But well worth the wait. On the other hand I had Clark build me a custom revolver a couple of years back. It was supposed to be 3 - 5 months.  Got a call in 5 WEEKS. It was ready!

As far as ArmaLIGHT rifles... my most recent mouse build was a 20" pencil barrel from Green Mountain Barrels. Chrome lined, 1 in 12 twist. Intended as a plinker.  I put it on an Anderson "Sport" upper with a free float tube handguard. It turned out to be so accurate that it is now my light weight match rifle.  I have a Lyman globe site with clear plastic apertures mounted to a sight base from Champion's Choice which is mounted not to the barrel but to the flash hider which has been turned down to .750" and Locktited in place.  The read sight is a modified DPMS A2 mounted to the flat top rail.  It sports a Merit VIA adjustable aperture. It will shoot better with 55 grain ball handloads than most of my range visitors can do with their scoped ARs.  Perhaps I need to drop $600 - $800 and put some match sights on the Fulton   I learned to shoot with iron sights and I guess you never forget - even when the eyes get older.

Ken

Good thing you didn't decide to order a Rock River Arms

[Hoff]

Welcome from WI. I would have recommended RRA but i'm way too late!

[unforgiven]

Ya want Rock River :https://www.impactguns.com/rock-river-arms.aspx they have them at a fair price.

[taylorkh]

I am familiar with RRA - at least in the .223 platform.  Their 2 stage triggers are a great bargain. I have also used a lot of their parts. As to their .308... It is somewhat unique in that it uses FAL magazines.  When I first read that I thought "great!  FAL mags are cheap."  Well not any more.

Several years ago my step son did his favorite fund raising drill "hey Mom, how about chipping in on this rifle and we will give it to Ken for Christmas." This time I ended up with an FAL parts kit gun which his gunsmith buddy had built. I snagged a bunch of extra mags for it for about $4 each.  I never did really like the FAL nor the CETME which I obtained by the same scheme.  But as they were gifts I could not sell them.

And then earlier this year he asked me if I had a CETME?  Yes.  Would you consider selling it? I might.  So after he paid for that one he asked if I would sell the FAL?  He got that and 10 mags.  It was actually his recommendation that I look at an AR platform .308. So when I looked at the RRA and then priced FAL mags I told him the REAL DEAL he got purchasing his rifle back.

I have a dozen PMAGs for the Fulton coming in tomorrow on the Big Brown truck. I guess I will admire them until the Fulton arrives. And I will shoot my Anschutz 8001 in my air conditioned shop until the weather gets a little cooler.

Ken

[shepp]

31 minutes ago, taylorkh said:

I am familiar with RRA - at least in the .223 platform.  Their 2 stage triggers are a great bargain. I have also used a lot of their parts. As to their .308... It is somewhat unique in that it uses FAL magazines.  When I first read that I thought "great!  FAL mags are cheap."  Well not any more.

Several years ago my step son did his favorite fund raising drill "hey Mom, how about chipping in on this rifle and we will give it to Ken for Christmas." This time I ended up with an FAL parts kit gun which his gunsmith buddy had built. I snagged a bunch of extra mags for it for about $4 each.  I never did really like the FAL nor the CETME which I obtained by the same scheme.  But as they were gifts I could not sell them.

And then earlier this year he asked me if I had a CETME?  Yes.  Would you consider selling it? I might.  So after he paid for that one he asked if I would sell the FAL?  He got that and 10 mags.  It was actually his recommendation that I look at an AR platform .308. So when I looked at the RRA and then priced FAL mags I told him the REAL DEAL he got purchasing his rifle back.

I have a dozen PMAGs for the Fulton coming in tomorrow on the Big Brown truck. I guess I will admire them until the Fulton arrives. And I will shoot my Anschutz 8001 in my air conditioned shop until the weather gets a little cooler.

Ken

I meant because they have a 12 MONTH PLUS wait time, 12 weeks is nothing but thanks for the loquacious response!!

[taylorkh]

Only a matter of time... A couple of years ago I was in search of a full custom 1911 in 10mm. I knew exactly what I wanted but none of the usual suspects had anything to meet my specs. I came across Knighthawk Custom.  Their Richard Heinie Long Slide was very close.  I asked them 3 questions by email:

Can you build this pistol for me with a compensator?

You list several coating finishes and a brushed stainless option. Are the frames/slides stainless or carbon steel?

What is your delivery time?

And they answered...

No, we do not have any threaded barrels

We can build stainless or carbon

14 months (or more)

14 months is not that bad for a full custom pistol from a small shop.  The second answer did not really answer the question. I probably do not want a 10mm in stainless even though I have a fondness for the material. I don't think I really want a spray on finish on a $4k pistol. I would expect a blue finish to put a Python to shame.  And finally... in 14 months I would expect they could send one of their gunsmiths to night school to learn how to run a lathe and thread a barrel. Thus ended my search for a custom 10mm - at least for a while.

Ken