Cold Bore, Myth or Fact?

[jtallen83]

I recently listened to a podcast with Ryan Cleckner, former Ranger and Sniper school instructor among many other things. He stated that cold bore/fouling shots being off target had more to do with a cold shooter than anything else.

"A target to help you confirm “cold-bore” shift (or the lack thereof!)"

https://ryancleckner.com/free-long-range-shooting-targets/

Curious what the cadre here think about this?

I found it hard to accept having seen a shift on the first round pretty consistently. The cold shooter explanation wouldn't seem to explain it for me. Many times I have seen this shift even after shooting many rounds through another rifle directly before starting in with a fresh one. I would think that would make me a "warm" shooter.

This target from todays range trip got me thinking about this. The first shot went way low while the next 19 stayed pretty consistent. I had already shot a couple hundred rounds from two other 5.56 rifles before picking up the Matrix so my trigger finger was plenty warm. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by jtallen83
grammar

[dsdmmat]

Well I am no expert (nobody pays me to shoot) but, I too experience a different point of impact on the target from the first round down the tube no matter if my barrel is clean or fouled (as in I failed to clean it from the last outing).  Most of my bolt actions are .5 inches in difference. Two of them I have shot enough that they are predictable and I can Kentucky Windage for the impact shift.

[392heminut]

I'm no expert by far but I had a friend on the police department that was a rifle shooter, reloader, hunter and the dept. sniper. He was one of the most knowledgeable riflemen I've ever known and he truly believed in the cold shot being different from followup shots. He felt so strongly about it that he would go out to the range once a month and set up a target at 100 yards and fire one shot at it with his department issued rifle and ammo and then bring the target back, date it,  and put it in his file in case he ever had to go to court and prove that he knew where his shot was going if he ever had to take one!

[Sisco]

That is a,true professional.

[survivalshop]

 It would probably be many factors that would effect cold shot impact on target . Some Barrels or Rifle type may be effected by it then some others , even Barrel Brand ,type , weight or profile , may effect how that first shot impacts .

  But he may have a valid point , even though you have shot many rounds in other rifles before the one you are testing , it is a different rifle , different Trigger ,Barrel & even Caliber  maybe different stock or Barrel length.    No two a like .

It really does come down to the nut behind the Trigger , so , I guess its possible .

[unforgiven]

So is the best cold bore shot, from a barrel that has been cleaned and fouled with one shot ?

[survivalshop]

 Cold Bore shot would be a cold Barrels first shot .

[jtallen83]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:49 PM, survivalshop said:

But he may have a valid point

I'm hoping his book will be under the tree so I can read more. He is pretty adamant that he can prove the cold bore shot theory wrong. Until I heard his podcast I thought this was a universally accepted fact but it's hard to dismiss a man with the experience he has. I am definitely going to keep track of this and put more attention in to that first shot.

[bfoosh006]

I believe in the Cold Bore Shot.

There are so many variables involved in it.... how well is the rifle built ?... How tuned is the ammo? Is it a high quality barrel ? How high a quality Scope is being used ?...I could go on and on... but you can see what I mean

The Ranger / Sniper probable uses a highly tuned firearm built by the Army Armory's Shop... so his answer might be true in his experience with a highly tuned rifle... I don't know.

But I have seen a stray cold bore shot from all sorts of rifles...frankly, I'd love to try his rifle and see if it is true.

On the flip side.... we all are capable of being the "cold shooter" ... so IMHO, there are just to many variables involved to be able to outright say its mostly the shooter.

So.... I guess I can't say if it is true or not.

Was the Ranger / Sniper in any way connected to the "Free Targets" ?
I do not consider them free if I have to sign up with my e-mail to receive said free targets..... after clicking on the "Free Targets" and being led to another page that needs my e-mail"

Edited December 21, 2017 by bfoosh006

[jtallen83]

58 minutes ago, bfoosh006 said:

Was the Ranger / Sniper in any way connected to the "Free Targets" ?

Yes, that is his website. He is on the up and up though, doesn't sell your email or info just wants to spread the word. He does alot for the industry and for military charities, just under $50,000 donated for sales of his book to the Sua Sponte Foundation and the Special Operations Warrior Foundation.

Here is one of his podcasts;

He does another that goes over legal issues related to firearms;

https://firearmsradio.tv/trigger-words

[StainTrain]

Cold Bore

Cold Fouled Bore

Cold Clean Bore

Cold Shooter 

 

I have heard a lot of arguments through the years and none of them has scientifically swayed me either way.  There are people that are pretty passionate about their position.  I have tracked one or two cold bore shots throughout the years and FOR ME...my conclusion is that Cold Shooter and Cold Clean Bore contribute to the largest POI shifts.  Cold Shooter and Cold Fouled Bore have less POI shifts.  These shifts are around .1 or at the most .2 mil (ETA: maybe .3) shifts at 100 yards.  Nothing like .5 or .6 Mils.   If .5 Mils or more is your cold bore shift, you have more going on. 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by StainTrain

[jtallen83]

21 minutes ago, StainTrain said:

 If .5 Mils or more is your cold bore shift, you have more going on. 

I have obviously got more going on with the 100 yard target above then, what should I be looking for? This shift is more than I am used to seeing but then I don't have a bunch of time with the suppressor in use yet, still would regularly see 1+ MOA shift on this rifle. This was a cold and somewhat clean bore, no copper remover but a few passes with a brush and patches till clean.

[StainTrain]

I keep notes (shooter's log) on my precision range days.  Mainly because I have found that I am the weakest link in the system and I don't like making major changes to a system until I know it is the system.  We all have days that our focus is off or we just can't hone in our trigger work or whatever.  I would take it out a few more times on different days, same lot of ammo, same type target, then lets see where you are with the POI shifts. 

 

 

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

I have obviously got more going on with the 100 yard target above then, what should I be looking for? This shift is more than I am used to seeing but then I don't have a bunch of time with the suppressor in use yet, still would regularly see 1+ MOA shift on this rifle. This was a cold and somewhat clean bore, no copper remover but a few passes with a brush and patches till clean.

We're talking MOA and mils here brother - different.  Each 1/10th mil (0.1 mil) is approx 0.36" at 100 yards. One full mil is 3.6" at 100 yards.   Basically, 0.3 mils would be approx an inch at 100 yards.  If you had a 0.5 mil shift at 100 yards, that's over 1 2/3rds inches. Damn near 1 3/4 inches when you math it out.  In a nutshell, the 0.3 mil shift would be the same as a 1 MOA shift. 

Clean bore shots will be different than "fouled barrel" shots.  You'll see it alot less on true match barrels, that have been hand lapped - they're just smoother.

Clean bore is CLEAN  - you ran all your copper remover through it until there's now none left in the lands and grooves - and all carbon fouling would be gone then, too.  We're talking CLEAN.  There are all kinds of crags, mountains, valleys and scary shiit when you look down the rifling of a mass produced barrel.  I'll bore scope a recording of one and put the video up.  It takes copper, stripped from the bullet's jackets,  to "fill" those areas and kinda "smooth out" the lands/grooves of the rifling.  Once that occurs, the shot groups will be much more consistent.  At that point, you have a "fouled barrel."  Doesn't necessarily means it's all carboned up - it's "coppered up." 

Edited December 22, 2017 by 98Z5V

[StainTrain]

That sums it up right there.  Sorry about mil/moa confusion. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by StainTrain

[jtallen83]

No confusion really, my cold bore shot is about 2 moa off the group average on that target. So .6 + mils is in that wtf range. Even worse I can't blame it on a lack of copper....

I have about 600 rounds from the same lot so I will start doing a better job documenting each range trip and see where it leads me. I do save lots of targets but didn't really get info like temperature and such documented. 

[98Z5V]

I've gotten lazy about weather-gathering before I shoot, brother...  I hit weather.com and my zip code, and write down their data before I head out...    If it warms up significantly whilst shooting, I grab the data when I get back home, too...  

Seriously, I do that...  

One of these days, I'll have a badass Kestrel, and get my own weather while I'm out there, and put it to use while I'm out there.  I want the 5700 Elite pretty bad...

[jtallen83]

I have a Kestrel and haven't documented with it once. Haven't shot past 100 yards since I got so I didn't think it worth the effort. I really need to spend more time on these details, I see another benefit besides just the data, I'll shoot less ammo per range trip, I do tend to get carried away banging steel as fast as I can 

[survivalshop]

  I use a Caldwell wind meter & it also has Temperature reading on it so you get both wind & Temp. at the same time & its recorded on my Chronograph data . The wind & direction are only written down when its over 10 mph or more .

    I think you can have two shooters & their Rifles & come up with two different results , like has been said , the rifle , Barrel ,  Trigger ,Ammo & the Human factor will determine the results .

    

Edited December 22, 2017 by survivalshop

[bfoosh006]

14 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

Yes, that is his website. He is on the up and up though, doesn't sell your email or info just wants to spread the word. He does alot for the industry and for military charities, just under $50,000 donated for sales of his book to the Sua Sponte Foundation and the Special Operations Warrior Foundation.

Here is one of his podcasts;

He does another that goes over legal issues related to firearms;

https://firearmsradio.tv/trigger-words

Thank You, your word means a lot.
Merry Christmas !

[98Z5V]

Ryan Cleckner also works for the NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation) and makes excellent, excellent videos for them.  Here's an example, and it's easy to find all of them. 

 

[Jeff300]

https://blog.hornady.com/for-accurate-data-sample-size-matters-b0c1d70beaba

 

And it never stops, 6yrs later and there’s more information out there than ever. 

[BrianK]

OK, not centerfire so maybe different factors causing cold bore shift. 

With rimfire I have seen cold bore fliers at 50 yards, maybe .2 mils. Then the rest go where they're supposed to go. But the term "cold bore" is a myth with rimfire IMO. It has absolutely nothing to do with the temp' of the bore or rimfire wouldn't settle down after one shot. There's maybe 3 grains of powder in a LR cartridge and with SV (subsonic) ammo the bullets are lubed lead so very little friction for barrel heat. But the term is cold bore.

But the fact of cold bore does exist, at least I've seen it. I think the videos below may suggest an answer as to what it is. It also suggests a solution and darned if it didn't work! But is it the same for copper jacketed lead? IDK!

So since watching those videos I checked SK ammo, the best that I currently use in my KIDD SG, and yes, first round velocity spike exists. Using the straw gets rid of that. It also gets rid of the POI shift if I'm not so lazy as to just shoot a round and forget the straw. Yeah. most of the time I just fire a round to put moisture in the bore.

IMO interesting stuff. Rimfire long range is "condensed" long range. What we do at 300 yards = somewhat what a .308 does at 1000. I'm not saying that I have shot at 300 yards yet but working toward it. Wind... I never had to contend with that in the forest of Maine where shots are short and speed is king (accuracy too of course). Thank goodness for the Army's "quick kill" training in '70. I actually had to slow down for hunting (wingshooting) or all I had was a cloud of feathers. Good training. Deer hunting? No problem, one shot with the .308 and I had venison every time. But long range? Very different.

Edited August 11 by BrianK
added a few words for clarity