Building a 308 from an idea I had...

[RedRiverII]

Received LaRue trigger MBT2s.  That is all.  Had a ruckus with the wife over not keeping my 4th of July moratorium intact.  What's a battle without a few skirmishes.  Went looking for a .260 barrel,  $850--$900.  JP,  Bartlein,  any recco's??

[RedRiverII]

McGowen barrels?  Looks reasonable for my request.

[DNP]

Don’t go gettin yourself in trouble now.  I apologize for not having a recommendation, but I look forward to seeing the results. 

[NTXshooter]

Wilson Combat?  They just had a really good sale.  Might do it again for the 4th.

[98Z5V]

3 hours ago, NTXshooter said:

Wilson Combat?  They just had a really good sale.  Might do it again for the 4th.

Yep, I have the Wlson Combat 20" Hunter barrel in mine, and it does fantastic.  It's alot cheaper than your stated barrel budget, too, ... so that should get you back on the good side with the Mrs...  

I run my .308 Win brass straight through the RCBS .260 Rem sizing/depriming die, then turn the case necks, and toss it back in the tumbler.  No need to neck down to an intermediate size, then to .260.  Just go for it. 

[RedRiverII]

 Good.  Good side with the Mrs?  Hmm didn't know she had one,  a good side.  Oh,  now I see the rolling on floor laughing emoji.  True,  true.  Looking out for the Wilson barrel on sale.  Alright next question.  Does anyone sell small part kits where I don't need to spend a lot on a little.  I damaged the extractor retaining pin and it's like $2 for one plus shipping.  Any one offer kits?  I had the 308 firing retaining pin ( cotter pin,  not even trimmed to a point )  from my 308 go flying.  I did buy the push pin for a replacement,  but gee whiz you think the manufacturers could've tapered the cotter with a point.  I know,  nitpicking,  didn't sleep well last night.  I am seeing the value added by some makers to our rifles.  All these little steps that add up to a better platform.  Barrel next,  then on to BCG,  then the receiver.

[RedRiverII]

The 4th of July moratorium is weighing heavy on me.  I saw a couple of deals I would have jumped on,  but I did promise not to spend until the 4th.  I will dig into my stuff and pull out whatever parts I have,  and then be satisfied with compiling a list.  For now I have settled on a 260,  for no other special purpose other than why not ?  This enforced slow downed pace is intriguing,  I usually jump on stuff without much second guessing, and then it's on to the next thing.  This makes my pile higher,  and does nothing to scratch the itch.  I've read two books, and a bunch of articles on building,  specs,  opinions,  and general all around info gathering.  It is surprising to me how much I don't take time to fully understand the rifle and it's components,  techniques,  and inner workings.  The rifle can be as deep or a light a topic as we wish.  I've been at the range and heard nothing,  or a muted click,  a small thoomp and wondered what all the commotion was among the other shooter's.  Squibs,  FTF,  and several other noises that told the educated ear something is wrong.  My usual take was a caveman type ugh,  having no clue that danger was around.  Thankfully we have a culture of shooters that take our sport seriously, and look out for one another,  for the most part.  I'm just B.S. ing right now because I have nothing else to do and enjoy this place.  Thunderstorm warnings have knocked out my range day so this is it.  First bit of info that became important to me was the recoil system.  I noticed,  as a newcomer here the hubbub surrounding buffers and springs.  Not too long ago the only thing I thought about the buffer and spring was that's the stuff in the handle behind that plunger thing.  Reading up on it here has allowed me to not sit like a jerk on the range wondering why this semi auto rifle only fires one shot at a time.  Dummy.  Thanks to the helpful members for bringing me up to speed.  

[RedRiverII]

Opened a box I had laying around.  I'm sick in the head I think.  I will NOT take a picture of this stuff.  Brand new 16" 5.56 5R Socom Barrel,  4150 CMV,Wylde chamber 5/8". M16 complete BCG 5.56 NiB   $377.50  BAD ambi safety selector unopened stuff BTW.

Magpul rail sections 2 packs,  Magpul ASAP  ambi sling attachment,   Redding neck sizing bush .243,   Brownells roll pin holders starter /setter punches  Red, Black, Blue LPK kit

CMMG lower pin and spring kit,  have one on order from Brownells coming Fri.  LEE 260 case length gauge & shell holder,  another coming from Amaz.  NM rear sight.  Brownells M16 Pivot Pin detent install tool,  ejection port duct cover 6.8 SPC another forgotten project,  Brownells (2) barrel nuts,  BAD .250 small pin enhanced pivot & takedown pin set,  Lyman case length/ headspace gauge 223 rem,  Lee 308 case length gauge and shell holder,  JPE ar pivot pin install tool,  Lee cutter and lock stud can trimmer,  Anderson AM-556 LW OOPS kit,  Lee 223 case length gauge and shell holder,  4- 1095 Armalite springs,  BCM KMR Handguard complete kit unopened,  556 tactical superiority lower parts kit complete,  hammer, trigger,  pistol grip black, blue, red, yellow,  white bags,  Tac 1 steel latch mil spec charging handle,  buffer spring unknown,  primer pocket cleaner LEE,  Brownells bolt catch pin punch, Mega Arms billet upper m0304-ha in bag still,  another A3 upper in bag,  Redding neck sizing bushing 224,  Anderson lower ending in 666,  hand guard removal tool d ring,  Colt stock sopmod2 complete set up in bag,  LAR-15 pin kit,  Black Rain Ordnance lower receiver parts kit,  Lapping compound,  LAR-15 spring kit carbine,  2 forward assist kit,  RRA single stage semi auto trigger kit,  port door clips and springs,  another big and bolt,  Wilson case holder 223 rem,  Sinclair AR-15 bolt vise,   Wheeler ARUpper/Pic rail vise block,  Wheeler Universal Barrel Clamp,  Another small parts package from Brownells ejector,  spring,  pins etc.  gas rings

The disturbing thing is my wife is right,  I buy stuff,  stash and forget.  It's got to be a thousand dollars sitting around.

 

Just a practice in futility or would've been had I NOT REDISCOVERED THIS STUFF.

 

[jtallen83]

I laugh, not at you but with you! I just wondering what the list would look like if I started digging into the storage drawers and boxes myself. There is a for sale section here, list it cheap enough and it will have a home in my drawer 

[98Z5V]

16 hours ago, RedRiverII said:

 I noticed,  as a newcomer here the hubbub surrounding buffers and springs.

This piqued my interest - this statement right here, and got me thinking.

I had the M4A1 since it's introduction.  My first was #W318708.  That was the number of the gun on my weapons card, and the same one I had for 10 years. They had standard 3.250" AR15 carbine buffers in them, 3.0oz.  Not long after I got that gun, there was a "reliability improvement program" with them, and we had to send them all in to the "Depot Level Maintenance," which was our own armorers in that unit.  Some notification came down, guns were changed, and we hadn't even drawn them from the arms room to make that happen- our Armorer's made it happen.  Curious enough, those guys were right down the hallway from me, so I went in there to ask them what all the shiit was about.   "Ah, we put some new heavier buffer in there  had to take your buffer apart and take out a steel weight and put in a tungsten weight - one tungsten and two steel,  over the three steel weights, and we gave all you guys a new buffer spring..."  Fucking H1 buffer, at 3.8oz.

That was "necessary" to control the auto-fire in the 14.5" carbine-gas barrels, on the M4A1 - heavier buffer, new spring (stock spring).  We went from a 3.0oz standard buffer to a 3.8oz "H1" buffer - and they weren't marked - the unit armorers upgraded them with a tungsten weight in place of a steel weight...

Now,that made the M4A1 more reliable,in 5.56, in full auto.

How in the hell does that somehow come around to being "the ideal buffer weight" in a.308AR platform?  Short answer is, it's NOT. H1 buffer in a .308AR, that's designed for a 5.4oz buffer?!  Gotta be kidding me...  The .308AR platform was designed around a 5.4oz buffer, FIRST, in order to control the weight, mass and force of the BCG firing a .308 Win round through this platform.  Period. 

Part 2 coming up... 

Edited June 19, 2019 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

There's money involved around tungsten - alot of money.  You guys realize that when you pay for heavier buffers.  The more tungsten you buy (H1, H2,H3) the more you pay for it.  Go buy a VLTOR H6 buffer... You'll quickly see what I mean - 4 tungsten weights... 

So, on a gun (Armalite AR-10) that was designed for a 5.4oz buffer, that was 5.200" long, running inside a receiver extension that was9 11/16" internal depth, ...   THAT was it's design, for proper operation. Done deal.  Period.

Armalite made a collapsible stock, and had to figure this out - they already knew that the buffer weight had to be 5.4oz, but the buffer had to be shorter, and so did the receiver extension.  Eugene Stoner developed a 7 5/8" internal depth receiver, because, BECAUSE, he changed the buffer to tungsten weights instead of steel, and got the buffer length down to 3.250" with those tungsten weights.  And the fucker weighed 5.4oz.  He made his design parameters WORK, based off the weight of the buffer that's required to run the AR-10 (the ONLY one running then...).

So, in short, the .308AR platform was already decided, WAY BEFORE US, and the minimum buffer weight needed was 5.4oz, and that was based on the rifle config.

Part 3 coming up.

[98Z5V]

So, you have a minimum buffer weight - something that's "enough ass to control the mass - and pressure."  How is it that DPMS did what THEY did on the LR-308?  They used an AR15 receiver extension that was 7.000" internal depth (they had them on the shelves, right?}.  They redesigned the buffer to work with a 7.000" internal depth collapsible extension (AR15 part), and came up with a 2.500" long buffer.  Even if you stuff an aluminum-bodied buffer with TWO tungsten weights, it only weighs 3.8oz.  You can't make an aluminum bodied buffer that's 2.500" long WORK in a collapsible extension on a .308AR, and make it any heavier than 3.8oz, even spending your money on those two (only two fit) tungsten weights... 

DPMS redesigned the spring.  They made it stiffer, in order to compensate.

No other manufacturer does this.  There are a shiit-ton of places that sell "Armalite AR-10 springs" and "DPMS LR-308" springs...  and don't have a clue.  Not one CLUE.  They just rebadge their AR15 springs.  And that don't cut it.

Everyone says, "The barrel, trigger and BCG are the heart of your accuracy..."

I won't argue that.

The recoil system and the gas system are the HEART of your reliability - and you MUST balance those two systems.

If you don't, your gun might be accurate - but it runs like shiit.

3.8oz buffers in a .308AR is not where you want to be.  Even if you get the perfect spring - you just compromised on the design of the system, from the very designer, Eugene Stoner.  You're making all kinds of other changes to make that gun run.  So far, I haven't seen anyone smarter than Eugene Stoner show up with anything else that's as reliable, in operation.  When you start "balancing compromises," which is both compromises in money and function, you compromised your reliability.

One perfect example I have is a specific manufacturer that likes to make cheap .308ARs, affordable to everyone, and with a "lifetime guarantee."  They ship with a gas port too small, and a gas tube that's too short - and they compensate for this with a recoil system that's too weak for the .308AR, .308Win round...  So, how does it work?  Typical complaints are, "It's over gassed, and I added an adjustable gas block to fix it..."

Yeah, so... How's it "over gassed" when the gas port is too small?  How's it over gassed when the gas tube is too short?  OH!  They used a recoil system toss-up with a buffer weight that was detemined "adequate" for the full-auto M4A1 5.56 rifle, some unknown spring, in a buffer that's 2.500" long, inside an AR15 Carbine receiver extension...  It's not "over gassed" in the least, and you DO NOT need an adjustable gas block to "tame that beast" at all.  You're under-recoiled from the get go, because that was CHEAPER to do on the assembly line, and other compromises were made in the barrel production, the serious compromise with gas port location on the barrel in order to use the cheaper - everywhere - AR15 gas tubes.  "Well, the gun SHOULD work most of the time, for most of the people, with most ammo...  "

Not good enough...

Off my

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by 98Z5V

[dafish]

Good read.  Maybe not pertinent to the OP, but I sure learned from it.  Thanks!

OP:

I just paid $200 for a stripped M5 upper and lower inculding shipping, tex, credit card fee, and FFL.  Purdy good deal.   Dahlonega Gold and Pawn.

Barrel:  Look, I don't know anything, but from what I can tell the Criterion is the best value for dollar out there, and if you want to to better you're going to spend twice as much. 

By the way, John Paul, of JP bolts, was quoted as saying he's dropping the .260.  He claims to respect it, but feels starting out today, his market, the builder is better served with the 6.5.   Just read it today in fact.

 

[98Z5V]

3 minutes ago, dafish said:

I just paid $200 for a stripped M5 upper and lower inculding shipping, tex, credit card fee, and FFL.  Purdy good deal.   Dahlonega Gold and Pawn.

 

 

Holy fornicate have I suffered in Dahlonega, Ga... 

[dafish]

On 6/8/2019 at 8:23 PM, shooterrex said:

LaRue MBT-2. On sale for $80.00 right now. Great trigger.

Well you for sure made my life easier.  thanks!

d

 

[RedRiverII]

I've heard the BCG referred to as the 'engine' of our system.  Well it sure guides the forces that drive the action.  One cylinder?  I should have used a better word than hubbub regarding the buffer system.  To me it was hubbub,  a continuous din overriding the the norm.  Obviously,  my ignorance as usual, disguising itself as a contempt for the mundane.  I'm the dummy BTW.  I appreciate your contribution.  It answers or solves many unknown ills,  much like the old penicillin shot.  It has made us all that much better off.  

The more you get into tungsten the more expensive...  I see the old ingenious,  imitator,  imbecile law coming into effect.  The three I's.  Eugene Stoner the Ingenious morphs into the steel buffer guy, the Imitator,  and finally the Imbecile that doesn't care either way as long as the money rolls in.  My wife has this biscuit recipe that I'm sure is as heavy and dense as steel,  maybe I could sell...nah,  that just ain't right.

It doesn't matter to the OP which ways the posts go as long as we're sharing bonafide info.  There's enough horse nonsense in the overall rifle community.  $200 upper/lower- terrific deal.  I have a few laying around doing absolutely nothing since 2015,  maybe I should get a few more.  The Mrs. loves it when she's correct,  and I can't stand arguing with people who supply truthful arguments,  I never win.

Edited June 19, 2019 by RedRiverII

[RedRiverII]

Let us know if JP is going to unload his share of 260 bolts.

[RedRiverII]

Oct 2018 article,  JP favors the 6.5 over the 260.  Yep,  same bcg.  I like that Low Mass setup,  interesting for sure.

[jtallen83]

18 minutes ago, RedRiverII said:

Oct 2018 article,  JP favors the 6.5 over the 260.  Yep,  same bcg.  I like that Low Mass setup,  interesting for sure.

Check out Fulton Armory’s high pressure bolt, their whole BCG is a sweet piece of machinery for a good price.

Many others prefer the 260, boils down to a reloading question, do you? If you do then 260 is the deal. Many of the pros prefer it. 

https://www.recoilweb.com/todd-hodnett-the-long-range-cowboy-108460.html

[RedRiverII]

That LaRue Rifle 22" looks very tempting.  If I sell half of the stuff I have laying around I could buy two.  

  I didn't even mention the guitars or equipment.  There's another 10g's in that pile.

7 hours ago, dafish said:

Good read.  Maybe not pertinent to the OP, but I sure learned from it.  Thanks!

OP:

I just paid $200 for a stripped M5 upper and lower inculding shipping, tex, credit card fee, and FFL.  Purdy good deal.   Dahlonega Gold and Pawn.

Barrel:  Look, I don't know anything, but from what I can tell the Criterion is the best value for dollar out there, and if you want to to better you're going to spend twice as much. 

By the way, John Paul, of JP bolts, was quoted as saying he's dropping the .260.  He claims to respect it, but feels starting out today, his market, the builder is better served with the 6.5.   Just read it today in fact.

 

[RedRiverII]

JP has his opinion,  and that referenced Recoil mag article has another.  Hodnett believes the 260 is just warming up.  In any event the subject is rich,  viable, and lively.  Just my cup of tea.  

[SimonSays]

Mod’s;

98Z5V’s three part soap box speech above needs to be copied to its own thread. That was great information that everyone new to the 308 AR platform NEEDS to know. May I suggest putting it under the “308 AR- What You Need To Know” thread. Either with the “Buffer and Springs” section or under its own title. “308 AR- Receiver Extension (Buffer Tube), Buffer and Spring”. 

Good job 98Z5V. Yep, damn fine job!!!!

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Edited June 19, 2019 by SimonSays

[98Z5V]

Thank you, brother - I appreciate that.  The mood hit me last night, and the previous sentence I read triggered that outburst...  

After I looked at it, I realized that I need to copy that information, and put it in a thread that I wrote awhile ago - and I pre-planned placeholders into that thread.  After I get done putting that information in there, I'll link the whole thread back into this one.  

[98Z5V]

5 hours ago, SimonSays said:

That was great information that everyone new to the 308 AR platform NEEDS to know. May I suggest putting it under the “308 AR- What You Need To Know” thread. Either with the “Buffer and Springs” section or under its own title. “308 AR- Receiver Extension (Buffer Tube), Buffer and Spring”

I dove-tailed it into this one in a way that makes sense - in my mind.  It can be moved, modified, all that - shoot your opinion on "if it makes sense."  

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by 98Z5V

[sketch]

I always fall back to your info brother! Thank you for sharing this , as I can with others in my area. Its a blast going to a gun shop and listening to the bs they sell.. then I can pop in and correct the salesman! 👍 I've been schooled by experience!