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Long Distance: Getting started


Matt.Cross

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20 minutes ago, JT303 said:

100% Fact. Your only as good as your spotter. 🙂

Yep, its completely true.  When you're on the gun, the primary thing you need to deal with is breaking an accurate shot, and THEN, trying to keep the target in your scope, THROUGH recoil.  Distance determines how well you can do that, primarily, and magnification that you have dialed comes in second. 

The spotter never has to deal with that, and has solid eyes-on all the way through the shot, and either hit or miss - and makes calls after that.

So, explanation - Distance is #1 for managing the shot.  The further it is, the more you'll be off target through the scope - and hopefully you can get back on target through the recoil impulse and spot your own shots.  The further the target is, the harder that is to do.  SO...

Too much magnification will hinder you.  Your field of view is smaller the higher you're dialed, you shoot, come off target through the recoil impulse, and you can't get back on target when your body settles - and see your own shots.  Simple answer?  Dial down your magnification, give yourself a wider field of view, and you'll get back on target easier after the recoil impulse. 

Example, that might counter what I'm saying:  Mile Shot with the Win Mag.  I have a 6x24 scope on that thing.  IPSC target at 1760 yards.  I have to have that scope on 24x just to be able to see that thing, and make the shot.  Distance helps, in that instance, because the flight time is about 3 seconds.  I can get through the recoil impulse, back on glass, and watch my impact, be it hit or miss.  Now, if I was running a 34x scope dialed to 34x - my field of view is WAY smaller, and I might not be able to spot my own shots...

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On 3/16/2023 at 8:22 PM, 98Z5V said:

We didn't run the full classes last Fall Shoot, brother.  We'll run ALL the Long Distances classes this Fall '23 - and everything will make much more sense.  After that, hear it, practice it, learn it - it'll lock alot of it in.  You won't even need a ballistic app after that, or an electronic laser  range finder.  You'll sight in on something, and it will all click, and make sense.  :thumbup:

That's my money-back guarantee.  I'll refund the cost of the whole course, if you don't understand afterwards.  The course fee is - show up.  Total money traded hands is Free-Fiddy-Free.  I'll refund all that if I can't get you to absorb it and learn it. 

Would it be possible to add something on basic spotting to the fall course? 

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31 minutes ago, Cunuckgaucho said:

Would it be possible to add something on basic spotting to the fall course? 

Make another class on how to spot?  If that's what you're asking, we can add that easily, brother.  :thumbup:

#1 thing, is know your shooter. Does your shooter want only corrections?  Or, does your shooter want impacts?  That's a very big thing, and depends on what you call for them.  He/him/she/her. Shim. Which is both.  

Trying to be all "inclusive" here...  :lmao:

We can definitely add that - and it's a great idea to do that.  :hail:

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19 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Yep, its completely true.  When you're on the gun, the primary thing you need to deal with is breaking an accurate shot, and THEN, trying to keep the target in your scope, THROUGH recoil.  Distance determines how well you can do that, primarily, and magnification that you have dialed comes in second. 

The spotter never has to deal with that, and has solid eyes-on all the way through the shot, and either hit or miss - and makes calls after that.

So, explanation - Distance is #1 for managing the shot.  The further it is, the more you'll be off target through the scope - and hopefully you can get back on target through the recoil impulse and spot your own shots.  The further the target is, the harder that is to do.  SO...

Too much magnification will hinder you.  Your field of view is smaller the higher you're dialed, you shoot, come off target through the recoil impulse, and you can't get back on target when your body settles - and see your own shots.  Simple answer?  Dial down your magnification, give yourself a wider field of view, and you'll get back on target easier after the recoil impulse. 

Example, that might counter what I'm saying:  Mile Shot with the Win Mag.  I have a 6x24 scope on that thing.  IPSC target at 1760 yards.  I have to have that scope on 24x just to be able to see that thing, and make the shot.  Distance helps, in that instance, because the flight time is about 3 seconds.  I can get through the recoil impulse, back on glass, and watch my impact, be it hit or miss.  Now, if I was running a 34x scope dialed to 34x - my field of view is WAY smaller, and I might not be able to spot my own shots...

Don't forget the spotters best friend is the ability to watch the trace at farther distance targets. I sometimes can pick up the trace in flight with softer recoiling rifles. I found myself almost getting little to no movement on bolt actions when I was really dialed in. Being able to see the shot after ignition is one of the most surreal moments in life. Your spotter should live for that too when you "send it". 👉

Being a good spotter takes in everything else EXCEPT the actionable parts of the shooter. (But he must also have solid fundamentals of shooting just the same) I used to watch and gauge wind and baro pressures pretty well. Gusts can be diminished by terrain but not when the bullet arc travel goes higher than the elevations. Was pure joy for me back in the day. I still catch myself looking at signs of wind in the trees and fields/grass. 

One of my goals is to build the most soft felt recoil AR308 to be able to bridge the shooter/spotter duties. Still haven't decided on what caliber would work best yet, but I get the feeling those 243 Win shooters know something more and they're not sharing secrets......lol😂  

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12 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Make another class on how to spot?  If that's what you're asking, we can add that easily, brother.  :thumbup:

#1 thing, is know your shooter. Does your shooter want only corrections?  Or, does your shooter want impacts?  That's a very big thing, and depends on what you call for them.  He/him/she/her. Shim. Which is both.  

Trying to be all "inclusive" here...  :lmao:

We can definitely add that - and it's a great idea to do that.  :hail:

Absolutely. Spotting is valuable to being a good shooter as well as spotting. Correct positioning. (Its never like you see it in the movies) Well most of them anyway. I always preferred directly behind the shooter and low.      

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Bullet trace is hard out here in the desert, because you have to have humidity to see trace.  Sometimes we'll have it, many times we don't.  It's great to work with trace, and makes the spotter's life easy - but there are times out here where there's no way we'll see any trace that day.

Speaking of trees and grass, for wind calls - we don't have much of that, either...   We're screwed for distance...  :lmao:  Every bush is dried up and stiff, trees don't move, because they're just giant bushes...   Grass? What?... 

We rely on mirage 95% of the time.  Read the mirage. It's amazing how accurate it can be, and how relatively easy it is to pick up doing it.  There's almost always wind out here, too, so you have to pick that shiit up fast.  

Basically, it sucks shooting distance out here.  :laffs:

 

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On 4/24/2023 at 9:44 PM, 98Z5V said:

Bullet trace is hard out here in the desert, because you have to have humidity to see trace.  Sometimes we'll have it, many times we don't.  It's great to work with trace, and makes the spotter's life easy - but there are times out here where there's no way we'll see any trace that day.

Speaking of trees and grass, for wind calls - we don't have much of that, either...   We're screwed for distance...  :lmao:  Every bush is dried up and stiff, trees don't move, because they're just giant bushes...   Grass? What?... 

We rely on mirage 95% of the time.  Read the mirage. It's amazing how accurate it can be, and how relatively easy it is to pick up doing it.  There's almost always wind out here, too, so you have to pick that shiit up fast.  

Basically, it sucks shooting distance out here.  :laffs:

 

Maybe I have been spoiled? Always shooting at military ranges in the western half. Grass, trees, lots of greenery. But we did use mirage quite a bit too if you have open planes of area and desert like conditions. Mirage is one of the great ways to adjust for wind too. However, cold nights in that environment can nearly eliminate it. Leaving with nothing (unless you did your dope range card🙂)

Ive seen the glimpse of the bullet base reflect off the sun in the right conditions as well. 

Well, for what its worth, if its hard for good shooters to shoot in those conditions, its hard for everyone. (Know your enemy's capability's as well as yours)😜. -Sun Tzu

The good thing about the desert is its open and easy to see someone coming? Sorry, got off on a military tangent again.:fullauto:

 

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On 4/24/2023 at 10:39 PM, Cunuckgaucho said:

I know I could get a lot out of a discussion on spotting not only on things to use to determine the information but how to clearly and quickly communicate it. 

 Heck even the ast few post have been informitive

Of course ! It takes a few days to learn then weeks of practice and a lifetime of trial and error. 

But like anything, your point about the practical skills of spotting in conjunction with the 3 basics FIeldcraft, Marksmanship and Terrain Navigation (Route planning). Be good at all 3 to become an expert. Any less and the triangle doesn't stand up. 🔺  

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11 hours ago, JT303 said:

Well, for what its worth, if its hard for good shooters to shoot in those conditions, its hard for everyone.

That's why it's easy to make someone better, when they come out here to shoot.  :thumbup:  We always have some kind of wind, and you have to deal with it. The only thing you can always count on for wind calls here, is the mirage.   Distance is good, open terrain usually isn't, unless you have the high ground  - common "scrub brush" can be 10 feet high, and if you can get a target in some clear ground, it's usually in a "hole" through visible brush - so you can get screwed on spotting impact splash, routinely.  "Hit, don't miss...  I can't spot splash on that one..."   :laffs:

It's always an adventure - and you can learn something new every single day out here.  Worst day ever turned into the best day ever, for training...  Set up the 850 for 5.56 heavies, run 'em.  Got the target emplaced early - and the wind kicked up.  14.9mph full value wind, we shoot 271* to target (due west), and the wind was hard from due south.  Someone said, "Let's just call it, pack up..."   Hell no, we're shooting, until we get it - the wind was a blessing.  I learned that day, that THAT wind at 850 was a 5 3/4 mil wind hold, to get that gun on target.  Very first shot was straight up hold, and it went 50 yards right of the target, by the spotters estimation.  Let's figure this out, then...  

The desert is a blessing.  And it's a curse.  You just gotta manage it.

 

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12 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

That's why it's easy to make someone better, when they come out here to shoot.  :thumbup:  We always have some kind of wind, and you have to deal with it. The only thing you can always count on for wind calls here, is the mirage.   Distance is good, open terrain usually isn't, unless you have the high ground  - common "scrub brush" can be 10 feet high, and if you can get a target in some clear ground, it's usually in a "hole" through visible brush - so you can get screwed on spotting impact splash, routinely.  "Hit, don't miss...  I can't spot splash on that one..."   :laffs:

It's always an adventure - and you can learn something new every single day out here.  Worst day ever turned into the best day ever, for training...  Set up the 850 for 5.56 heavies, run 'em.  Got the target emplaced early - and the wind kicked up.  14.9mph full value wind, we shoot 271* to target (due west), and the wind was hard from due south.  Someone said, "Let's just call it, pack up..."   Hell no, we're shooting, until we get it - the wind was a blessing.  I learned that day, that THAT wind at 850 was a 5 3/4 mil wind hold, to get that gun on target.  Very first shot was straight up hold, and it went 50 yards right of the target, by the spotters estimation.  Let's figure this out, then...  

The desert is a blessing.  And it's a curse.  You just gotta manage it.

 

That to me sounds challenging !! You don't often get the opportunity to train with those windy conditions at distance. I would certainly have stayed as well. Those that are turned away by less than ideal environments or conditions can't perform under the real deal later. Regardless of our unexpected type weather in the Midwest, we always trained. No one griped. Plus it makes it fun.

Like you have said in many other posts, it math. There's a formula to hitting at any distance the cartridge is capable of reaching. I have lobbed a few 556 on target at 850 and made a few at 1000. That's the real sport of shooting. Its you, your rifle and the elements. 

I'm right there with you sir. (Being in the desert is at least warm-usually). I've had too many prone shooting days in the snow without my ground cover . :cool: 🥶

 

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10 hours ago, JT303 said:

Like you have said in many other posts, it math. There's a formula to hitting at any distance the cartridge is capable of reaching. I have lobbed a few 556 on target at 850 and made a few at 1000. That's the real sport of shooting. Its you, your rifle and the elements. 

I'm right there with you sir. (Being in the desert is at least warm-usually). I've had too many prone shooting days in the snow without my ground cover . :cool: 🥶

Yep, it's all math.  The only thing you really need is an accurate gun, and accurate load.  If it's accurate - well, it's accurate.  After that, it's nothing more than math.The only thing out of your reach is everything that's well past transonic.  Everything within transonic is only a math problem away from hearing the spotter shout,  "IMPACT!"...  :laffs:

Desert = Warm, for sure.  We're rolling into that right now, with Sunday being the first projected 100+ day.  The weather-guessers are calling 101.  They say this is normal, but we've had 100 days in early April before - and it'll go through September.   All the other months of the year are ideal shooting conditions.  Summers suck, and through the summer, we usually only shoot very early in the morning, or do night shoots. 

Done my time cold.  Army-wise, I spent a long time in a cold weather battalion.  Skis, snow shoes, crampons, hard ice-boots - all issued.  Cold weather training every other year  - in someplace really cold...   :lmao:  Alaska was my favorite CW training rotation - if you could have a "favorite one."  That place is badass.  Calgary is second runner up, and Montana was first runner up.  Cold is amazing, when you're prepared for it.  However, that shiit is why I live in the desert now...  :banana:

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11 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Yep, it's all math.  The only thing you really need is an accurate gun, and accurate load.  If it's accurate - well, it's accurate.  After that, it's nothing more than math.The only thing out of your reach is everything that's well past transonic.  Everything within transonic is only a math problem away from hearing the spotter shout,  "IMPACT!"...  :laffs:

Desert = Warm, for sure.  We're rolling into that right now, with Sunday being the first projected 100+ day.  The weather-guessers are calling 101.  They say this is normal, but we've had 100 days in early April before - and it'll go through September.   All the other months of the year are ideal shooting conditions.  Summers suck, and through the summer, we usually only shoot very early in the morning, or do night shoots. 

Done my time cold.  Army-wise, I spent a long time in a cold weather battalion.  Skis, snow shoes, crampons, hard ice-boots - all issued.  Cold weather training every other year  - in someplace really cold...   :lmao:  Alaska was my favorite CW training rotation - if you could have a "favorite one."  That place is badass.  Calgary is second runner up, and Montana was first runner up.  Cold is amazing, when you're prepared for it.  However, that shiit is why I live in the desert now...  :banana:

Absolutely. I can see why the dessert is your home now. I will take the heat over cold any day. I did most of my Army shooting at competitions in various bases, from Camp Perry to Bragg to Edwards and even some remote Oklahoma sites. Few others as well. JSOC was one of my favorites along with Wilson match. Mostly a mixed bag of combat shooting and some precision. I think it was different 15+ years ago than today. 

Today's guns are more accurate than ever (again, thanks to math). True that once you are dialed in with your weapons MOA capabilities, there is only your skills and your math that really matter. Dope books are key to your success. I watch todays long distance unknown distance competitions and most use a cheat sheet guide right off the picatinny rail. Smart to say the least. :thumbup:

Maybe this post is the wrong one for discussion in long distances, but there has always been this voodoo among precision shooters to leave your barrel a little fouled after your shooting practice. (Clean it, then shoot 5-10 more confirmation rounds). I have found this to be true for consistent accuracy then next time I shoot or return it to service-ready deployment. (Yes, I know the Army doesn't let you put guns back dirty) They never questioned my M24 though. :hail:  

  I am a meticulous AR cleaner though for the more working parts. Still the barrel is your your money is made. 😜

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I loved shooting in the desert, It was such a change from shooting over steep canyons and the winds was a bitch BUT it was steady and in the mornings I could see all my traces the mile was tougher to see trace as it went out of scope sight I wonder how high that 140 went ,anyway i like shooting in the desert....

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On 4/27/2023 at 10:15 PM, 98Z5V said:

That's why it's easy to make someone better, when they come out here to shoot.  :thumbup:  We always have some kind of wind, and you have to deal with it. The only thing you can always count on for wind calls here, is the mirage.   Distance is good, open terrain usually isn't, unless you have the high ground  - common "scrub brush" can be 10 feet high, and if you can get a target in some clear ground, it's usually in a "hole" through visible brush - so you can get screwed on spotting impact splash, routinely.  "Hit, don't miss...  I can't spot splash on that one..."   :laffs:

It's always an adventure - and you can learn something new every single day out here.  Worst day ever turned into the best day ever, for training...  Set up the 850 for 5.56 heavies, run 'em.  Got the target emplaced early - and the wind kicked up.  14.9mph full value wind, we shoot 271* to target (due west), and the wind was hard from due south.  Someone said, "Let's just call it, pack up..."   Hell no, we're shooting, until we get it - the wind was a blessing.  I learned that day, that THAT wind at 850 was a 5 3/4 mil wind hold, to get that gun on target.  Very first shot was straight up hold, and it went 50 yards right of the target, by the spotters estimation.  Let's figure this out, then...  

The desert is a blessing.  And it's a curse.  You just gotta manage it.

 

Best time I ever had, with my clothes on. :thumbup: the area is one big school 🇺🇸 🍻🍻

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6 hours ago, unforgiven said:

Best time I ever had, with my clothes on. :thumbup: the area is one big school 🇺🇸 🍻🍻

Once you get past the Super Steep Class Registration Fees, it ain't bad, is it?...   :lmao::laffs::banana:

We dabbled in the information that we needed to have on the last one, but this year, I'll plan to run the Full Meal Deal.  All of it.  Scopes, MOAs and MILs, what that all means through YOUR glass and reticle, Range Estimation, Long Range Fundamentals, Wind Reading, and High Angle Shooting.  The cool thing is you get the information, and then you get to put it to use right away.  That makes most of it stick in your Brain Housing Group.   :thumbup:

And the new class that I'm working up - Spotting for Shooters,  Estimating Wind Calls, and Accurately Calling Shots.  Both ways, shooter's preference.  Call impact of last shot, or call corrections for next shot.  When spotting, you need to do what the shooter needs, in order for them to put rounds on target.  This is gonna be fucked up for Spotters - you need to know both MOA and MILs, in order to call...   Depends on what scope is on the guy's gun, that's on the line right then. 

Class Registration Fees will be exponentially higher this year, due to that...   :popcorn::thefinger:

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Here's your ultimate Playground, men.  Get in the sandbox, and get as dirty as you want. It's limited only by your imagination, in what can be planned and accomplished.  Everything is on the table...

PicsArt_10-13-09.11.18.jpg

Here's a good view from the firing line in camp.  We can set anything we want up, any distance up to 450.  We have a surveyed 450 location and 609 location for full size IPSC  plates, and permanent steel targets (that never get taken down) at 480, 609, 712, and 780.  We're hopefully gonna get an 850 up there in the hill, before Fall.  This is all right from the firing line in camp.

IMG_20211112_164936.thumb.jpg.eee7d9c5e6e2f9d9b2a67f344c7dade5.jpg

 

This doesn't even include the offset location (about 1km away from camp) for the Long Distance range.  Out there, it's the surveyed 500, 850, and anything else out to about 1350.

The 850 target on the offset range doubles as the 1760 target from camp.  The 850 over there, is exactly 1.00 miles from the firing line at camp.  :thumbup:

Hopefully, before Fall, I can get a surveyed target location out there for 2k yards.  We'll see.

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8 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Once you get past the Super Steep Class Registration Fees, it ain't bad, is it?...   :lmao::laffs::banana:

We dabbled in the information that we needed to have on the last one, but this year, I'll plan to run the Full Meal Deal.  All of it.  Scopes, MOAs and MILs, what that all means through YOUR glass and reticle, Range Estimation, Long Range Fundamentals, Wind Reading, and High Angle Shooting.  The cool thing is you get the information, and then you get to put it to use right away.  That makes most of it stick in your Brain Housing Group.   :thumbup:

And the new class that I'm working up - Spotting for Shooters,  Estimating Wind Calls, and Accurately Calling Shots.  Both ways, shooter's preference.  Call impact of last shot, or call corrections for next shot.  When spotting, you need to do what the shooter needs, in order for them to put rounds on target.  This is gonna be fucked up for Spotters - you need to know both MOA and MILs, in order to call...   Depends on what scope is on the guy's gun, that's on the line right then. 

Class Registration Fees will be exponentially higher this year, due to that...   :popcorn::thefinger:

Get your eyes checked it could help 👀 not directed at anyone in particular I know I need mine checked.

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On 5/1/2023 at 10:11 PM, 98Z5V said:

Once you get past the Super Steep Class Registration Fees, it ain't bad, is it?...   :lmao::laffs::banana:

We dabbled in the information that we needed to have on the last one, but this year, I'll plan to run the Full Meal Deal.  All of it.  Scopes, MOAs and MILs, what that all means through YOUR glass and reticle, Range Estimation, Long Range Fundamentals, Wind Reading, and High Angle Shooting.  The cool thing is you get the information, and then you get to put it to use right away.  That makes most of it stick in your Brain Housing Group.   :thumbup:

And the new class that I'm working up - Spotting for Shooters,  Estimating Wind Calls, and Accurately Calling Shots.  Both ways, shooter's preference.  Call impact of last shot, or call corrections for next shot.  When spotting, you need to do what the shooter needs, in order for them to put rounds on target.  This is gonna be fucked up for Spotters - you need to know both MOA and MILs, in order to call...   Depends on what scope is on the guy's gun, that's on the line right then. 

Class Registration Fees will be exponentially higher this year, due to that...   :popcorn::thefinger:

Ouch......Any Military or LE Discounts? LOL😜

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6 hours ago, JT303 said:

Ouch......Any Military or LE Discounts? LOL😜

Well, in the Spring Session, it's 4 days, typically Thursday through Sunday.  The Fall Session is 5 days, and is Thursday through Monday.  The price is super steep.  It always costs the same - Free-Fiddy-Free.  Just show up to the desert in South Central AZ.

So, the cash outlay is whatever it takes you to get here, then camp in the desert for 4 or 5 days.  Breakfast and dinner are provided.  We love to cook.  Lunch is on you - whatever you like to do for that.

The heavy price that you have to pay is the mental and psychological damage, afterwards.  You'll see shiit out here that you've never seen before, do some things that you never thought were possible, and it's probably gonna impact you, long-term...  We're not responsible for any counseling that you have to go through later in life due to attending.  We're also not responsible for any marriage counseling that you need to attend, after your return, when your significant other notices that "you're different now..."  Not on us...  :thumbup::laffs::lmao:

 

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