First venture... will appreciate input

[SgtDog0311]

Howdy Gents,    First let me say I have my several-1000s of posts on Levergun, Single Shot and Casting forums but I’m a babe-in-the-woods here.   I trained with the M14 in the service early on (and have an M1A) and later was issued and humped the hills of Pendleton with an M-16, but we shot and cleaned them.   That’s it!   For everything else they were turned them into the armorer.    So I know squat about what I’m embarking on.   I just ordered an M5E1 Upper and Lower from AERO and have the following in my Wish List, with the intent of slipping things over to the Cart as sales materialize, hopefully Black Friday netting some good ones.  

So, I’m that guy… the new member asking questions that have been fielded a hundred times.   I’ve searched and will continue to search but if anyone desires to make recommendations for swapping out what I have currently for a better build, then I’m all ears.  At 65 I don’t really want to learn all the lessons first hand that I learned with casting and buying old vintage levers and single shots.  

I’ve already got a recommendation from jtallen83 regarding the buffer.  https://www.armalite.com/product/ar10rekit01-6-position-receiver-extension-kit/   And I’m reading all I can on that in some of the threads here but frankly my head is spinning.    I’m assuming the armalite choice would open up the choices on the stock selected below.  

If you care to dive in just recognize the level of knowledge you are speaking to.

Insofar as the choice in barrel, I went with the 20” just because I currently shoot out to a 1,000 in BPBR with vintage low-velocity rifles with cast bullets and it just doesn’t seem right to have less capability with a high velocity rifle.    So there is that.   But again, all we ever shot in the Corps was out to 500 yds so I’ve not been banging steal or shooting groups with my M1A or anything.   Just thought 20” appropriate for the above reasons.   

So, other than the Upper & Lower which should be in route to my FFL now, this is what I have (with the AERO buffer not yet replaced with tj’s recommendation.      Btw… I’m particularly interested in thoughts on the Geissele trigger choice.    But everything is fair game on comments.   Stocks too, since I’d like to know what you find handiest.

$259.99           20" .308 CMV Barrel, Rifle Length  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-20-cmv-rifle-barrel

$214.99           .308 / 7.62 Bolt Carrier Group, Complete - Black Nitride  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-bolt-carrier-group-black-nitride

 

$50.99             M5 .308 Rifle Buffer Kit https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-rifle-buffer-kit-1

 

$29.99             AR 308 Charging Handle  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/ar308-charging-handle

 

$24.99             .750 Low Profile Gas Block  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/750-low-profile-gas-block

 

18.99               Melonite Gas Tubes  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/gas-tube-melonite

 

$69.95             Magpul MOE® Rifle Stock  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-ar308/spare-parts/furniture

 

**  Didn’t really like the rifle stock choices so tj’s recommendation is the one I think opens this up, therefore the link is to all choices.

 

$55.99             M5 MOE SL Lower Parts Kit Minus FCG  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-moe-sl-lower-parts-kit-minus-fcg

 

$94.99             VG6 EPSILON 65  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/vg6-epsilon-65

 

$124.99           Aero Flip-Up Sights Set, Gen 2  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/aero-flip-up-sights-set-gen-2

$69.99                   M5 (.308) Enhanced M-LOK Handguards, Gen 2  https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-enhanced-mlok-handguards-gen2

** missed the sale on this this past weekend.   Now it shows $189.99

$199.99           Geissele Super Semi-Automatic (SSA®) Trigger   https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/geissele-super-semi-automatic-trigger

** again, this reflected the sale price at the time I captured the wish list.

Thanks All!   John, from Oklahoma and Idaho, depending on Wrestling and not the weather.

[shooterrex]

That VG6 muzzle break is for 6.5mm not 308. LaRue MBT-2 Trigger is good and less than $100.00 shipped.

[jtallen83]

Look at the LaRue MBT trigger, every bit as good as the SSA but under $100. 

Look at either Brownell’s or ToolCraft for a BCG, save $50-100 and not loose on quality.

I would recommend going to a gun shop and looking at different stocks on factory rifles to get an idea of what you like. You can’t really go wrong with anything Magpul as far as quality goes.

Edited November 13, 2019 by jtallen83

[shooterrex]

Think JT ment tool craft.

[SgtDog0311]

Thank You gentlemen, really appreciate the feedback.   Anything that keeps quality and performance but lowers the bottom line on this will be a big help. 

[SgtDog0311]

2 hours ago, shooterrex said:

That VG6 muzzle break is for 6.5mm not 308. LaRue MBT-2 Trigger is good and less than $100.00 shipped.

shooterrex, I changed that.   Thanks for the heads-up!

[SgtDog0311]

I watched a YouTube video on the LaRue comparing with the Geissele.  Thanks!

One the BCG, any opinions to share on the finishes:  Black Nitrate, Nickle Boron, Phosphate or any listed on Brownells?

[Ravenworks]

You won't need anything from Armalite if you buy Aero's kit (parts).

[Ravenworks]

Aero owns Ballistic advantage, Primary Arms has a sale once a month where you could get a barrel for about half price.

I used a Centiron barrel on mine, in the end it's all about what you want to spend.

Stuff like sights,you could save buying elsewhere.

Their BCG are made by Toolcraft, I  bought theirs because it was in stock and on sale.

[jtallen83]

54 minutes ago, Ravenworks said:

You won't need anything from Armalite if you buy Aero's kit (parts).

Foolish not to take advantage of the most reliable buffer system made for about the same money, hands down the Armalite system wins, search here and find one that was a problem. I have read of several Aero kits that were issues and have one myself, gotta change the quarters every few hundred rounds as they get pounded flat. 

[jtallen83]

1 hour ago, SgtDog0311 said:

I watched a YouTube video on the LaRue comparing with the Geissele.  Thanks!

One the BCG, any opinions to share on the finishes:  Black Nitrate, Nickle Boron, Phosphate or any listed on Brownells?

I like the nitride myself, slick and cleans easy plus it is part of the metal surface, not a coating. I have had a Brownell retro chrome BCG in hand, very nice, posted a thread on it somewhere here, they are on sale cheap right now 

Have a Brownell nitride and a Toolcraft  nitride, the Brownell has a little nicer fit and finish but no real functional difference. 

The MBT has become a very popular trigger around here, many of us own several , I had SSA’s before they made the MBT but have not bought another since my first MBT. 

 

[Ravenworks]

1 hour ago, jtallen83 said:

Foolish not to take advantage of the most reliable buffer system made for about the same money, hands down the Armalite system wins, search here and find one that was a problem. I have read of several Aero kits that were issues and have one myself, gotta change the quarters every few hundred rounds as they get pounded flat. 

Why?

He is buying a system designed to work together by the manufacturer Areo Perssision.

I have half a dozen of rifles built off their stuff without one problem.

It it was hodge podge of parts, then yeah maybe.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ravenworks

[SgtDog0311]

2 hours ago, Ravenworks said:

Aero owns Ballistic advantage, Primary Arms has a sale once a month where you could get a barrel for about half price.

I used a Centiron barrel on mine, in the end it's all about what you want to spend.

Stuff like sights,you could save buying elsewhere.

Their BCG are made by Toolcraft, I  bought theirs because it was in stock and on sale.

Appreciate the input Ravenworks, I checked out the Primary Arms on barrels.   Didn't see any half price sales and wonder if there is a way to receive notification of sales of if you just have to keep an eye on their site.   The one they had listed comparable to the one in my "wish list' was a little bit cheaper, without a sale running.

On the buffer, jt broached the Armalite after I told him the tech on AERO's site said I couldn't got with anything but the "rifle" buffer and that then limited me on the magpul stock.   Its all greek to me yet but I did welcome his claim that I was not limited to the "rifle" buffer based on the stock preferences.  

On the BCG, if Toolcraft makes AEROs BCG, then it's a matter of sales as, being a newbee to this environ, I'd be more comfortable going that route.   Right now, the Toolcraft price is a good $80 cheaper but maybe Black Friday will give some opportunities to get theirs cheaper. 

On sights, I have not ventured into the cyber world for options.   Just say the new Gen 2 sights on AERO and so far I'm still shooting irons, albeit an advanced case of glaucoma will change that eventually.    On the upside I shot well at the Quigley this year, 15th out of 650 shooters.  Might have been my last hurrah though.   I bought a scope for my Ballard this year thinking it might be.

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by SgtDog0311

[SgtDog0311]

1 hour ago, jtallen83 said:

I like the nitride myself, slick and cleans easy plus it is part of the metal surface, not a coating. I have had a Brownell retro chrome BCG in hand, very nice, posted a thread on it somewhere here, they are on sale cheap right now 

Have a Brownell nitride and a Toolcraft  nitride, the Brownell has a little nicer fit and finish but no real functional difference. 

The MBT has become a very popular trigger around here, many of us own several , I had SSA’s before they made the MBT but have not bought another since my first MBT. 

 

jtallen83, thanks on the Nitrade question.  

I looked on Brownells after several posts above and I guess I didn't realize Brownell had their own brand.   I did look at Toolcraft on their site and looked for them on Brownells.

On the MBT, the reference was MBT2 but I kept seeing MBT-2S.  Are they the same or different generations of the same?   I liked what I saw on YouTube but don't want to order the wrong thing.

[Matt.Cross]

MBT2S is a 2-stage trigger, the standard MBT is a single stage. 

[98Z5V]

3 hours ago, Ravenworks said:

You won't need anything from Armalite if you buy Aero's kit (parts).

Foolish recommendation. 

2 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

Foolish not to take advantage of the most reliable buffer system made for about the same money, hands down the Armalite system wins, search here and find one that was a problem. I have read of several Aero kits that were issues and have one myself, gotta change the quarters every few hundred rounds as they get pounded flat. 

Great recommendation. 

2 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

I like the nitride myself, slick and cleans easy plus it is part of the metal surface, not a coating. I have had a Brownell retro chrome BCG in hand, very nice, posted a thread on it somewhere here, they are on sale cheap right now 

Have a Brownell nitride and a Toolcraft  nitride, the Brownell has a little nicer fit and finish but no real functional difference. 

The MBT has become a very popular trigger around here, many of us own several , I had SSA’s before they made the MBT but have not bought another since my first MBT.

ToolCraft makes the BCGs for Aero Precision, Brownell's, and most other "OEM Manufacturers"  Google search "TOOLCRAFT BCG" in whatever caliber you're looking for, and go with a reputable dealer, and not a shiitbag "rejected parts dealer."  They're on sale all the time, from someone, somewhere.  ToolCraft BCGs are what you need to compare everything ELSE to.

LaRue MBT2S trigger.  Don't waste money on anything else, unless you're going for true, adjustable, Match Grade trigger performance.  It's a 2-stage trigger with 2.5lb first stage, 4.5lb second stage, and it's $87.  If you need something lighter than that, then you need a Geissele Hi-Speed trigger, which comes with the springs (now) for Service weights, DMR weights, and National Match weights.  <<<  CAUTION - you have to set that adjustable trigger up, from the get go.

To get into this, just get the LaRue trigger.

https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-mbt-2s-trigger/

[jtallen83]

6 hours ago, SgtDog0311 said:

On the MBT, the reference was MBT2 but I kept seeing MBT-2S. 

Apologies, they used to only have one type so I got stuck on just calling it MBT, I need to specify now that there are double and single stage offerings as well as curved and flat bow. I have no experience with the single stage, prefer two staGE MYSELF.

[jtallen83]

6 hours ago, Ravenworks said:

Why?

He is buying a system designed to work together by the manufacturer Areo Perssision.

I have half a dozen of rifles built off their stuff without one problem.

It it was hodge podge of parts, then yeah maybe.

Search here and find any reports on issues with the Armalite system. Search here and find issues with the Aero system. Compare and you may see what I and many others here have seen. I have a receiver with gouges in the tail due to out of spec buffer tube from Aero, made me a believer.............

[SgtDog0311]

Digested all that.    Thanks again.

Triggers are another new animal for me.   I hone most of my old levers to 2.5 if I adjust them at all.    My match Ballards are about 3oz. double-set-triggers.    But some of my old Ballards are 4+lb single-set-triggers.  What I'd want in a semi-auto fire 308 ??? I assume 'light' is not smart unless you are shooting matches of some sort.    But single or two stage is not something I'd know enough for a preference.   Guess we'll develop a preference for the 2S  (-:   If that is what you guys are using I'll go with that and figure I'll be happy.

So, from that wish list I only see three more things that might need scrutiny.

1. How about charging handles ?  Is there some reason I'd want to spend the significantly higher $$ on the ambidextrous? 

2. Sights... any recommendations over the AERO Gen 2 sights?

3. Muzzle Break.   Been corrected on that original 6.5 selection but wondering if I ought to look beyond the VG6 Epsilon or is that as good or better than other options?

I do have some questions I'll ask in a separate post about the buffer yet (not on choice but on some particulars about how the receive extension component works with a carbine stock).   Don't have that clear in my mind yet.  

[jtallen83]

34 minutes ago, SgtDog0311 said:

1. How about charging handles ?  Is there some reason I'd want to spend the significantly higher $$ on the ambidextrous? 

2. Sights... any recommendations over the AERO Gen 2 sights?

Look at the MechArmor charging handle on the LaRue site, very well made, nice to have the extra width to get around a scope is the real advantage. 
Magpul BUIS is an industry standard back up sight at a good price, if low profile is important then Bobro makes about the lowest profile available. Wait until you mount a scope and see what you need.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks, I'll check those out.   

Scope is gonna be a while due to $$.   This site will be the first to know because I'll sure be asking another set of questions then(-:

[SgtDog0311]

Ok, let me see if I can thoroughly expose my ignorance here yet manage some clear questions.    This post content/questions is not nearly as long as it looks.   Just including some lifted posts making up the some-total of my exposure.   It will be old-hat to you fellas but including since my questions arise in part from the reading.   I promise I'll leave you guys alone after this.

 

First off, I took this from the AERO ‘rifle’ buffer:   Buffer Length: 5.3” Buffer Weight: 5.6 oz.

I couldn’t see a reference to the receiver extension (tube) length and wanted it just to compare with the Armalite.   Didn’t find the tube length there either.

 

I wanted to compare just to visualize the differences but they would be relative to some questions.

 

So, questions:

The length of pull you end up with is controlled by the 6 adjustments incorporated in the Armalite tube, right?   In other words the Magpul “carbine” stocks have the adjustment lever but the catches are built into the tube???

And the AERO “rifle” buffer & tube in my Wish List, having similar weight and buffer length, has no length of pull adjustment, right?

And from that… I’m thinking the Armalite buffer is capable of a longer length of pull by simply extending to it’s rear-most adjustment.

If all that is correct then I’m only wondering if I’m giving up stability or play in the stock to receiver movement the further out I extend?

 

 

Lifted content from the web on buffers with the Armalite data coming from other posts on this site.

========

ArmaLite receiver extension tubes info are as follows...

•.223 / .308 rifle length 9-11/16” (inside depth)

•.223 carbine length 6-15/16” (inside depth)

•.308 carbine length 7-5/8” (inside depth)

Commercial size tube O.D. - 1.165” – 1.167” (don’t use this anymore)

Military (G.I.) size tube O.D. – 1.145” – 1.147” (carbine and rifle)

BUFFER SPRINGS

•.308 buffer spring rifle and carbine length 14-1/8” max - 13-3/4" min

•.223 buffer spring rifle length 13-1/2” max – 11-3/4” min

•.223 buffer spring carbine length 11-1/4” max – 10-1/16” min

BUFFERS

•.223 rifle length 5-7/8” – weight 5.2 oz

•.308 rifle length 5-3/16” – weight 5.4 oz

•.223 carbine length 3-1/4” – weight 3.0 oz

•.308 carbine length 3-1/4” – weight 5.4 oz

Basics:

When a bullet has been fired, the released energy causes the bolt carrier to travel backwards until it reaches the buffer housed within the buffer spring. At this point, the buffer will drive the spring backwards, compressing it against the buffer tube. As the spring returns to its extended position, the buffer will push the bolt and return it to the firing position, chambering a new round.

The weight of the buffer and the strength of the spring are key to ensuring the proper function of your rifle. A spring that fits securely within the buttstock of your rifle is probably the proper length. Buffer weights are a little trickier to determine. If the weight is too heavy, the force of the rifle firing will not be sufficient to drive the spring back and reload the weapon. If the buffer is too light, the bolt carrier will move too quickly and will be unable to perform its proper functions.

Buffer weights are dependent on the type of firearm you are operating. AR-15 Carbine buffers weigh an average of 3.0 ounces. They include three steel weights. Heavy buffers (H buffers) have an average weight of 3.8 ounces. They consist of one tungsten weight and two steel weights. H2 buffers weigh an average of 4.7 ounces. They include two tungsten and one steel weight. The heaviest buffers of all are the H3 buffers. They have an average weight of 5.6 ounces and include three tungsten weights. One other type of buffer is the rifle length buffer, averaging 5.0 ounces. This buffer contains five steel weights with one steel spacer. The weights listed here are all approximations.

The actual weight of the buffer will depend on the manufacturer's standards. A buffer and spring that are properly matched will significantly reduce recoil while maintaining the momentum needed to successfully reload the weapon.

Less Basic:
There's a lot of confusion surrounding which buffer and spring to use with what gas system.

For starters, the original buffer system is what we commonly refer to as a "rifle" buffer, and is used in "rifle" receiver extensions (more commonly called buffer tubes). These are used in A1 and A2 style stocks. The rifle buffer is simple, since the buffer itself is typically available in only one weight (around 5oz, give or take), with a spring long enough to handle any gas system upper in use, it's a safe bet to use, and has been used successfully for decades.

Progress being what it is, an adjustable length of pull stock was developed that necessitated a shorter buffer tube in order to provide the greatest range of adjustment available. We call these "carbine" tubes. Since the tube is shorter, a shorter spring and buffer was also needed, and here is where we start to run into the confusion issues.

Before we get too far, in a "normal" situation, gas system length has NO EFFECT on which buffer system (rifle or carbine) you use.

The attractiveness of the carbine stock system for most people is the adjustable length of the rifle, either for different clothing thicknesses or shooting positions, or for more compact storage. The other sometimes desirable option is you have 4 different "mil-spec" buffer weights available for tuning that can range from 3.5 to 4.5oz, again, give or take a little bit on either end.

The first part of confusion starts when looking at the buffer weight range is usually something like "well, why don't we just use the same weight as the rifle buffer if it's so reliable?"

The simple answer is because the springs are different. The rifle system's long travel and comparatively softer spring rate is not a direct translation to the shorter comparatively stiffer spring rate in the carbine system, which is where we get the variety of weights coming into play.

Before I go much further, something to note, if your rifle or carbine feeds, extracts and ejects reliably, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR RIFLE, regardless of what direction your brass flings out, regardless of how badly your rifle mangles the brass, and regardless of how much recoil you feel compared to your buddy's AR. Reliability is feeding EVERY TIME, extracting EVERY TIME, and ejecting clear EVERY TIME.

With that out of the way, it's time to discuss what the buffer is actually doing.

The buffer serves several functions, it provides a flat surface for the bolt carrier to interact with the spring, interacts with the buffer catch to keep the action spring contained for simpler field service, delays the bolt from unlocking after firing, and delays the bolt's return forward after ejecting.

The buffer performs these last two functions by way of the sliding weights inside the buffer body, which are available in different materials and allows for "tuning".

What would you need to tune for?

If the bolt carrier is receiving too much gas, the carrier can move forward so quickly that the buffer bumper actually strikes the end of the buffer tube and rebound forward quicker than it's supposed to. This can lead to a base over failure to feed, where the magazine can't lift the next round into position quickly enough for the bolt to feed it into the chamber. By increasing the weight of the buffer, the force applied by the gas is acting on a higher total mass, preventing the buffer from rebounding and allowing the weights inside to act as a dead-blow hammer and temporarily stall the carrier's movement before returning to battery. This gives the magazine time to properly present the next round, and all is right in the world. Other added (arguable) benefits of a heavier buffer is reduced felt recoil since the buffer isn't striking the end of the tube, and delayed unlocking of the bolt (which is said to increase accuracy).

If the bolt carrier is short stroking, not moving back far enough to pick up the next round (most easily diagnosed by failure to lock back after firing a single round loaded in the magazine), and a heavy buffer is used, going to a lighter buffer may resolve the issue. If a standard carbine buffer is being used, the rifle is under-gassed, either by gas block misalignment, gas tube misalignment, too small of a gas port in the barrel, or too short of a dwell time for the size and location of the gas port in the barrel.

You may have noticed I haven't talked about fancy "plus power" springs, or gas systems being used. Generally, these don't matter if you're using a trusted vendor for your action spring, or a common format barrel. If you're going outside the "normal" too far, you're best off following in someone else's foot steps, or being prepared to spend a lot of time and possibly money solving your issues.

For example, a carbine gassed or mid-length gassed 16" barrel is used successfully all the time, so if you really think you want a rifle gassed 16" barrel, you probably should reconsider, or be prepared to figure it out on your own.

Regardless of advertised carbine buffer weights, disassembly will tell you what to classify it as.
A "Standard" carbine buffer will have no markings, but contain 3 steel weights separated by neoprene discs.
A "Heavy" buffer will be marked with a single "H" and contain 2 steel, and one tungsten weight, again separated by neoprene discs.
H2 is marked "H2", and contains 1 steel and 2 tungsten weights
H3, marked "H3" contains, you guessed it, 3 tungsten weights, still separated by neoprene discs.

 

 

A bit on diagnostics and testing:

The reason the military came up with the different weight buffers was to slow down the cyclic rate when firing full auto to increase reliability, and reduce abusive heat generation.

In the civilian world, we use heavier buffers to reduce felt recoil (gamer guns use adjustable gas systems choked down as much as possible with the lightest buffer possible to run on the ragged edge of reliability with the lightest recoil possible). The actual recoil isn't reduced by a significant amount by going to a heavier buffer, it's decreased since there's more mass in the weapon, but mainly the impulse is longer, making it seem like there's less push on your shoulder, even though the percentage of change you're dealing with is in the realm of insignificance.

The easiest way to determine if you have a gas issue (not enough) or a buffer weight issue (too much gas) in a failure to feed situation is to load a single round in a magazine and fire it to see if the bolt locks back. If it does, you may need to try a heavier buffer (the bolt catch can be lifted faster than a fresh round by the mag spring and follower). If it doesn't lock the bolt back, you may have a gas issue to sort out.

If you're the experimental type, buying a standard carbine buffer and an H3 buffer will give you enough weights to build all 4 possible combinations, simply by drifting out the buffer bumper roll pin and swapping weights around.

[jtallen83]

Too much to read it all. I will make a couple responses then you will have to follow up.

there are generally two lop’s for the rifle length extension, A1 and A2, same receiver extension but A2 uses a spacer, google or the search here will give you lop. 
the Armalite carbine extension is a bit longer than the regular carbine extension, stability will depend on the stock you use, some carbine stocks are sloppy, some can be tightened up solid. Again, strongly recommend that you find a shop that has a good AR selection and get hands on to avoid disappointment.

[SgtDog0311]

Took that to heart about finding a shop.  Be looking next day or three.

[SgtDog0311]

98ZV,  thanks for link.  Got the trigger ordered.   Got a message from AERO that the Upper and Lower had shipped too.   Guess I'll need some tools before long.

jtallen83, that thread was really only about 14 lines.  The rest was just fluff I wanted to capture... sort of prove I was doing my homework to you guys. 

Anyway, not to worry.   I think I'm gonna get that Armalite ordered before I spend any more brain power on it.   I did get the thread count from AERO when pressing them on why they said only that 'one' of theirs was good from their selection.  Then called Armalite just to confirm.    Can't see the harm in opening up the options on the stocks.   Talked about that a little and he said one of Magpul's options had a lock on it that further snugged the movement.   I'll be looking to put my hands one of those soon as I get around to the shops.