Need help finding the barrel I want.

[Valetic]

I mean would the JP LMOS be a bad idea then? And their SCS? I would also assume a good, heavy Krieger barrel would be reliable as well.. and tuning the gas and buffer and putting a good brake on it to get rid of some of the recoil energy..

I mean if I was going for that kind of guerrilla, Vietnam reliability I’d just get an expensive ak, but I also wanted it to have precision out to 2-300 yards for hunting. And be able to put some range time in every once in a while. And not using really heavy grains.

[Matt.Cross]

37 minutes ago, Valetic said:

I mean would the JP LMOS be a bad idea then? And their SCS? I would also assume a good, heavy Krieger barrel would be reliable as well.. and tuning the gas and buffer and putting a good brake on it to get rid of some of the recoil energy..

I mean if I was going for that kind of guerrilla, Vietnam reliability I’d just get an expensive ak, but I also wanted it to have precision out to 2-300 yards for hunting. And be able to put some range time in every once in a while. And not using really heavy grains.

JP LMOS - yeah, probably not a good idea for a system that's primarily geared towards accuracy. Race gun? Sure. 

JP SCS - more of the same. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I learned this the hard way on the Enidine Hydraulic Buffer system pursuing similar goals. 

Long story short, lighter recoil components don't equal a calmer recoil impulse. If anything, they simply accelerate, decelerate, and stop all the more violently. That's probably not a problem unless you understand the usefulness of being able to spot your own impact.

Simply put, the standard recoil system will give you both a more tame recoil impulse sequence, and overall reliability with varying ammunition.

[98Z5V]

1 hour ago, Valetic said:

I mean would the JP LMOS be a bad idea then? And their SCS? I would also assume a good, heavy Krieger barrel would be reliable as well.. and tuning the gas and buffer and putting a good brake on it to get rid of some of the recoil energy..

I mean if I was going for that kind of guerrilla, Vietnam reliability I’d just get an expensive ak, but I also wanted it to have precision out to 2-300 yards for hunting. And be able to put some range time in every once in a while. And not using really heavy grains.

If you want a reliable gun that's able to eat any ammo, just make it simple, and leave the complicated and fancy parts for another build.  Don't complicate shiit with complicated shiit.  What you're describing in your second paragraph sounds just like my 13.5" gun.  Here's a report of it our to 400 yards, with just the red dot scope.  I'm sure this little gun will do 600 yards easily, and I'll be testing that soon - after I swap a magnified optic on it.

I originally wrote this up over on Full30.com:

https://forum.full30.com/t/zeroing-a-308-rifle-with-iron-sights/11194/21

[Valetic]

11 minutes ago, Matt.Cross said:

probably not a good idea for a system that's primarily geared towards accuracy. Race gun? Sure.

I hear that term thrown out a lot, and it seems when people criticize it most, others are quick to defend its’ reliability and that they 100% trust their life with it in an emergency, and that some sharpshooters have been using the same precision equipment thousands and thousands of rounds, been in all kinds of crappy weather, and probably wouldn’t spend the thousands of dollars it took to build their firearm if that just wasn’t the case.

17 minutes ago, Matt.Cross said:

JP SCS - more of the same. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I learned this the hard way on the Enidine Hydraulic Buffer system pursuing similar goals.

Are you saying these JP systems aren’t reliable? If so, in what environment?

I could see that like when they first began releasing certain products, but over the years they also had time to develop, modify and increase the lifespan of them.

I’m not defending either side myself, maybe a bit of devil’s advocate.

23 minutes ago, Matt.Cross said:

Long story short, lighter recoil components don't equal a calmer recoil impulse.

I could see that too because you are using different material to achieve that. I can put a good brake on which reduces 60+% of the firearm’s recoil, and if you couple that with an AGB that’s been engineered to withstand more than that even, with strong material where it’s needed and lighter material where it’s not as much.

I don’t know the science and energy of using a titanium firing pin vs a steel, and the force being exerted and how many times that pin can take it.

From everything I’ve seen so far, these JP products are very reliable. And the parts that need to take the brunt of the energy are strong and the others they cut down on the weight.

My biggest concern, for ANY AR system would be weather and exposure to different things outdoors. And like I said, in that kind of situation I would prefer an AK but I simply don’t see the need for all that where I live.

I might be advocating JP products here now for no reason at all. But if I’m wrong about it, how so?

[Matt.Cross]

4 minutes ago, Valetic said:

I hear that term thrown out a lot, and it seems when people criticize it most, others are quick to defend its’ reliability and that they 100% trust their life with it in an emergency, and that some sharpshooters have been using the same precision equipment thousands and thousands of rounds, been in all kinds of crappy weather, and probably wouldn’t spend the thousands of dollars it took to build their firearm if that just wasn’t the case.

Are you saying these JP systems aren’t reliable? If so, in what environment?

I could see that like when they first began releasing certain products, but over the years they also had time to develop, modify and increase the lifespan of them.

I’m not defending either side myself, maybe a bit of devil’s advocate.

I could see that too because you are using different material to achieve that. I can put a good brake on which reduces 60+% of the firearm’s recoil, and if you couple that with an AGB that’s been engineered to withstand more than that even, with strong material where it’s needed and lighter material where it’s not as much.

I don’t know the science and energy of using a titanium firing pin vs a steel, and the force being exerted and how many times that pin can take it.

From everything I’ve seen so far, these JP products are very reliable. And the parts that need to take the brunt of the energy are strong and the others they cut down on the weight.

My biggest concern, for ANY AR system would be weather and exposure to different things outdoors. And like I said, in that kind of situation I would prefer an AK but I simply don’t see the need for all that where I live.

I might be advocating JP products here now for no reason at all. But if I’m wrong about it, how so?

Just to straighten out the record, let me clarify: I've never had any issues with any of JP's equipment, everything I have owned of their products was exceptional. If I have a bias with regards to the JP brand, it's in their favor.

Also understand I'm not trying to knock the reliability of ANY of their products, certainly not the LMOS or the SCS systems. What I am attempting to do is help you get a 100% effective platform built based on your intended purpose, based on my own experience.

Buy what you want, and try what you want, and by all means share the results with us whatever they may be. We're just trying to make recommendations that are consistent with what you'd like to achieve, on the basis of our collective experiences.

Buy the JP stuff and share what you learned from it.

[Valetic]

18 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

If you want a reliable gun that's able to eat any ammo, just make it simple, and leave the complicated and fancy parts for another build.  Don't complicate shiit with complicated shiit.  What you're describing in your second paragraph sounds just like my 13.5" gun.  Here's a report of it our to 400 yards, with just the red dot scope.  I'm sure this little gun will do 600 yards easily, and I'll be testing that soon - after I swap a magnified optic on it.

I originally wrote this up over on Full30.com:

https://forum.full30.com/t/zeroing-a-308-rifle-with-iron-sights/11194/21

I’m not complicating anything. For SHTF for me, it just needs to be able to withstand a little rain and maybe some crawling around. Other than that, I don’t wanna see any problems for thousands of round.

I was going to go with the AR 10 first, and decided to go with a Grendel because the 308’s recoil especially sucked, I thought the terminal ballistics were comparable and it was lighter weight.

Decided to go with 308 again because ammo is abundant, not as many manufacturing issues, and I learned I could tame down the recoil with some JP products and a brake.

I’m not saying I know better than you guys, but why would what I’m asking for not eat ammo? Plenty of people have these products and claimed they never had issues.

[Valetic]

10 minutes ago, Matt.Cross said:

What I am attempting to do is help you get a 100% effective platform built based on your intended purpose, based on my own experience.

I can appreciate that.

[Matt.Cross]

37 minutes ago, Valetic said:

I’m not saying I know better than you guys, but why would what I’m asking for not eat ammo?

Because sometimes they don't, and when they don't we take note of it from the folks who experienced it.

You can find contradicting information anywhere and everywhere else, and maybe even here as well. Nobody wants to beat you over the head with information, if you aren't inclined to take advice in good faith, do what you want to do and share it so someone who will rely on others' experience learns from it.

 

[sagebrush]

1 hour ago, Valetic said:

I’m not complicating anything. For SHTF for me, it just needs to be able to withstand a little rain and maybe some crawling around. Other than that, I don’t wanna see any problems for thousands of round.

I was going to go with the AR 10 first, and decided to go with a Grendel because the 308’s recoil especially sucked, I thought the terminal ballistics were comparable and it was lighter weight.

Decided to go with 308 again because ammo is abundant, not as many manufacturing issues, and I learned I could tame down the recoil with some JP products and a brake.

I’m not saying I know better than you guys, but why would what I’m asking for not eat ammo? Plenty of people have these products and claimed they never had issues.

my experience with jp parts is they are excellent parts. you can use them and have no issues, but you need to understand how your 308ar works before you set it up. put the lmos in your gun it will last many years, good stuff. the carrier (lmos) is if I recall 8oz lighter than std carrier, and it moves very fast in recoil because of that. so you set your gun up for 150gr ammo and it will give you no problem for many thousands of rounds. you're out hunting and run out of 150's and can buy some 175's, so you load them in your gun and shoot them. because the gas dwell time is longer with heavier bullets you have now overgassed your lightweight buffer system that you set for the 150's. my experience with this system is that before you shoot the 175's you will have to adjust the gas block to lower the pressure to the bolt. 

[Valetic]

26 minutes ago, sagebrush said:

my experience with jp parts is they are excellent parts. you can use them and have no issues, but you need to understand how your 308ar works before you set it up. put the lmos in your gun it will last many years, good stuff. the carrier (lmos) is if I recall 8oz lighter than std carrier, and it moves very fast in recoil because of that. so you set your gun up for 150gr ammo and it will give you no problem for many thousands of rounds. you're out hunting and run out of 150's and can buy some 175's, so you load them in your gun and shoot them. because the gas dwell time is longer with heavier bullets you have now overgassed your lightweight buffer system that you set for the 150's. my experience with this system is that before you shoot the 175's you will have to adjust the gas block to lower the pressure to the bolt. 

Exactly. I’m going to know where to tune the gas and which spring to use every time.

The problem is it’s not mil spec. And they recommend not using them for duty/combat situations because of that. So if you have it tuned just right and some dirt or something gets in there and it doesn’t cycle, you might be up poop creek in a combat situation. Or you just over gas it on the fly, but I’m not sure what doing that will do to the Bcg.

Not only that, you have lighter weight or springs that are tuned just right too. And now you’re dealing with those issues rather than a one size fits all which is basically what mil spec is.

and ABGs can fail too. I can understand the lack of reliability with using this kind of system. Mil spec is designed to work come hell or high water. Fixed gas block that won’t fail, over gassed so it will shut no matter what, strong spring and weighted so it will shut no matter what, heavy and reliable Bcg that will take much more punishment than that, so on and so forth. Every nut, bolt, and screw is put together with the system to not fail under any circumstance.

if worse comes to worst, I’ll just over gas the thing a bit. I’ll probably be running 168 or 175 rounds anyways, and hunters usually carry 308 in much lighter grain so stumbling across 308 ammo like that is more likely imo if SHTF.

yes I’m building a race car but I’ve also given this some thought.

what I do wonder is how much the LMOS has been torture tested, still looking into all these details. Because if I overgas the system idk what kind of short or long term effects it could have on the Bcg itself.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Valetic

[98Z5V]

If you just run a standard carrier, standard gas block, factory Armalite AR-10 recoil system (Carbine of Rifle, either one)...

It's a simple gun, you're not adjusting gas, it eats anything... 

[Valetic]

7 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

If you just run a standard carrier, standard gas block, factory Armalite AR-10 recoil system (Carbine of Rifle, either one)...

It's a simple gun, you're not adjusting gas, it eats anything... 

Damn right. But I’m also an ethical hunter, wanting only humane kills and accurate shots. And I’m not sure I will be making another gun after this, and if I do it would definitely be a mil spec 14.5” AR 15.
 

I’m hoping this firearm will last me for years to come, and be dead nuts accurate.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Valetic

[98Z5V]

I don't have any light or complicated buffers (all are 5.4oz or close, standard buffers), run Armalite EA1095 recoil springs, and all my carriers/BCGs are full weight and not complicated.  Simple parts, that work.  Make sure your gas system is squared away, and the guns will run any ammo.  I don't have a single adjustable gas block.  I have 7 of these things.  I'm just telling you what has worked for me, all 7 times.  I'm pretty sure it's a solid plan to use, and not blind luck.

[sagebrush]

49 minutes ago, Valetic said:

Exactly. I’m going to know where to tune the gas and which spring to use every time.

The problem is it’s not mil spec. And they recommend not using them for duty/combat situations because of that. So if you have it tuned just right and some dirt or something gets in there and it doesn’t cycle, you might be up poop creek in a combat situation. Or you just over gas it on the fly, but I’m not sure what doing that will do to the Bcg.

Not only that, you have lighter weight or springs that are tuned just right too. And now you’re dealing with those issues rather than a one size fits all which is basically what mil spec is.

and ABGs can fail too. I can understand the lack of reliability with using this kind of system. Mil spec is designed to work come hell or high water. Fixed gas block that won’t fail, over gassed so it will shut no matter what, strong spring and weighted so it will shut no matter what, heavy and reliable Bcg that will take much more punishment than that, so on and so forth. Every nut, bolt, and screw is put together with the system to not fail under any circumstance.

if worse comes to worst,a b I’ll just over gas the thing it. I’ll probably be running 168 or 175 rounds anyways, and hunters usually carry 308 in much lighter grain so stumbling across 308 ammo like that is more likely imo if SHTF.

yes I’m building a race car but I’ve also given this some thought.

what I do wonder is how much the LMOS has been torture tested, still looking into all these details. Because if I overgas the system idk what kind of short or long term effects it could have on the Bcg itself.

this is a race car. and things need adjusted precisely. the bolt carrier will survive, unlike the rim of your brass. it moves that fast. if you're like me and just have to have one, get one. be prepared to adjust things if anything at all changes. I use mine as a bench gun, shoot one load only.

[sagebrush]

1 hour ago, Valetic said:

Exactly. I’m going to know where to tune the gas and which spring to use every time.

The problem is it’s not mil spec. And they recommend not using them for duty/combat situations because of that. So if you have it tuned just right and some dirt or something gets in there and it doesn’t cycle, you might be up poop creek in a combat situation. Or you just over gas it on the fly, but I’m not sure what doing that will do to the Bcg.

Not only that, you have lighter weight or springs that are tuned just right too. And now you’re dealing with those issues rather than a one size fits all which is basically what mil spec is.

and ABGs can fail too. I can understand the lack of reliability with using this kind of system. Mil spec is designed to work come hell or high water. Fixed gas block that won’t fail, over gassed so it will shut no matter what, strong spring and weighted so it will shut no matter what, heavy and reliable Bcg that will take much more punishment than that, so on and so forth. Every nut, bolt, and screw is put together with the system to not fail under any circumstance.

if worse comes to worst, I’ll just over gas the thing a bit. I’ll probably be running 168 or 175 rounds anyways, and hunters usually carry 308 in much lighter grain so stumbling across 308 ammo like that is more likely imo if SHTF.

yes I’m building a race car but I’ve also given this some thought.

what I do wonder is how much the LMOS has been torture tested, still looking into all these details. Because if I overgas the system idk what kind of short or long term effects it could have on the Bcg itself.

that is the problem there is no mil spec on 308ar. these guys are telling you what works 100% of the time based on real world experience

[edgecrusher]

I think your idea of mil spec is off. It has absolutely nothing to do with running in any condition. Also, you seem to have the belief that these guns are made of sugar and can’t get wet or dirty and if they do they won’t work. AK’s aren’t that much more reliable than modern AR’s and there are plenty of tests to prove it. That misconception has been long ago proven. The SCS is best meant for race guns and what most mean by that is a gun that uses one ammo tuned by the end user for competition. If you truly want a “SHTF” gun then you are building something that will shoot any given ammo and cycle properly without changing parts or tuning on the fly. That’s why we are giving you recommendations based on your verbage. Again, just a bunch of salty trigger pullers with experience. Mil spec is a specification of machining tolerances, not a requirement of performance capability.

[Valetic]

31 minutes ago, edgecrusher said:

I think your idea of mil spec is off. It has absolutely nothing to do with running in any condition. Also, you seem to have the belief that these guns are made of sugar and can’t get wet or dirty and if they do they won’t work. AK’s aren’t that much more reliable than modern AR’s and there are plenty of tests to prove it. That misconception has been long ago proven. The SCS is best meant for race guns and what most mean by that is a gun that uses one ammo tuned by the end user for competition. If you truly want a “SHTF” gun then you are building something that will shoot any given ammo and cycle properly without changing parts or tuning on the fly. That’s why we are giving you recommendations based on your verbage. Again, just a bunch of salty trigger pullers with experience. Mil spec is a specification of machining tolerances, not a requirement of performance capability.

I don’t think my definition of mil spec is off and I am extremely bias towards the AK being the overall most durable gun. A quick google search should tell you that.

Mil spec in the terms you described leaves out the durability and reliability of military engineered firearms. I don’t think some of these after market parts were torture tested nearly like the military did. Their stuff had to be as durable as possible, they had that in mind.

Some companies came out in the past and released “mil spec” products but completely shot themselves in the foot because they absolutely were not reliable in a combat situation. I think it was Remington in 1960 did this?

You can’t just say something is mil spec by the metallurgy and machining alone, can you?

[Valetic]

I understand that anything the military hasn’t accepted in their system isn’t mil spec, it’s that a lot of after market stuff can get away with saying it about certain things to increase sales.

And JP says the LMOS is not recommended to be used with for combat/duty. Regardless, I would like to know how durable it actually is. If it is, I can just swap out a buffer system, turn up the gas and get going. If I can’t do that for at least a few hundred rounds then I might have second thoughts.

[98Z5V]

1 hour ago, Valetic said:

I don’t think my definition of mil spec is off and I am extremely bias towards the AK being the overall most durable gun. A quick google search should tell you that.

Speaking from personalmilitary experience, and not a Google search, I can tell you that I didn't have a single issue with my M4A1 in Afghani-land.  What I'm stating to you about a build isn't someone else's opinion that I stumbled upon in an online article.  It's from personal use, lots of training, lots of $$$ worth of ammo, and the most fucked up conditions that you can imagine.

30 minutes ago, Valetic said:

And JP says the LMOS is not recommended to be used with for combat/duty. Regardless, I would like to know how durable it actually is. If it is, I can just swap out a buffer system, turn up the gas and get going. If I can’t do that for at least a few hundred rounds then I might have second thoughts.

Why would you want to use something like that when the manufacturer is telling you not to?

I don't have to swap any buffers of tune any gas on my guns.  I pull out the magazine loaded with 178gr ELD-Xs, and I load the magazine of 195gr HPBTs.  Or, I load the magazine of 150gr FMJ-BTs.  Or the mag of 168gr HPBTs...   I don't have to tune, swap, or change anything. 

Are you understanding the information that's being presented to you?  At any rate, you do whatever you want - and good luck.  You don't seem to listen.  You play it however you want,build whatever you want.  Hope it works for you.

[shooterrex]

My former boss used to shoot for JP. JP makes quality parts and guns. They are designed to play a game. They are set up to shoot 1 load without failure. A fine tuned race gun is not what I want to pick up if I need a battle rifle to work with whatever ammo I can find at the time. 308 AR's are not like AR's in 223. They are a different animal. I hope you have good luck with your choices in parts. If you do a search for the JP silent recoil system here you will see several cases of the system not doing a good job of functioning. Have fun and let us know how it turns out.

[Valetic]

31 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Speaking from personalmilitary experience, and not a Google search, I can tell you that I didn't have a single issue with my M4A1 in Afghani-land.  What I'm stating to you about a build isn't someone else's opinion that I stumbled upon in an online article.  It's from personal use, lots of training, lots of $$$ worth of ammo, and the most fucked up conditions that you can imagine.

Why would you want to use something like that when the manufacturer is telling you not to?

I don't have to swap any buffers of tune any gas on my guns.  I pull out the magazine loaded with 178gr ELD-Xs, and I load the magazine of 195gr HPBTs.  Or, I load the magazine of 150gr FMJ-BTs.  Or the mag of 168gr HPBTs...   I don't have to tune, swap, or change anything. 

Are you understanding the information that's being presented to you?  At any rate, you do whatever you want - and good luck.  You don't seem to listen.  You play it however you want,build whatever you want.  Hope it works for you.

You know what. You’re right.

[Valetic]

As a matter of fact, they actually don’t say the steel carrier isn’t duty/combat safe.

“Our proprietary bolt design, the JP EnhancedBolt™ is superior in every way to a standard Mil-spec bolt. Manufactured from SAE 9310, it has a drastically extended lifespan while design improvements ensure superior function. This high pressure .308 model is designed to open up reliable function of AR platforms with over-pressured loads such as 6.5mm and 6mm calibers.”

I was actually thinking of the aluminum version which does say competition use.

Fun facts.

[98Z5V]

You're a research-aholic.  Build a functional gun from known, proven parts that work, don't complicate it - then fuk with it later and mod it all out.  But, do that after it runs right.

I've told you what works, to make a functional gun, that eats anything you feed it.  What you do is up to you.  Good luck. 

[Valetic]

I just wanted to know what I was doing before I decide to drop a couple of stacks on a rig. I probably am asking too much out of one thing. And the farther I go down this rabbit hole the more I see that.

Like I’m talking about accuracy yet I wanna run a gas system.

Oh well, thanks for trying lol

[Valetic]

Well, I’m sold. This rabbit trail ends at the adjustable gas block. I didn’t realize how permanent it is. I found one company that does (BRT) that makes one you can microtune on the fly. But they don’t make one in the barrel size I need. I mean they might if I call them up, apparently they’re a sort of mom and pop thing, and might do it as a one off.

But it’s all enough to convince me that I need to just buy a damn bolt action hunting rifle and a heavy ass BCG for my SHTF.

Thanks everyone, it’s been beautiful. Hope to see you all again.