Valetic Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 Was planning on doing a 6.5 Grendel build in the AR 15 platform, but decided it just doesn’t pack a big enough punch. So I want to do a 308 instead. Been looking around on google, the closest I came to getting what I wanted was a Krieger, but they don’t have 18 inch on their customs page. Here’s the specs I want. 18 or 18 1/2 inch, heavy barrel, 11-11.5 twist, Stainless steel, Nitrided, end of barrel threaded, planned on using somewhere between 150-180 grain bullets, going to take it deer hunting, would like to be able to shoot out to maybe 250-300 yards but most likely all my shots will be within the 200 range. Will also be my SHTF gun. Not a panic buyer. Not being stingy on price either. Looking for quality, and accuracy/precision if I ever wanna shoot paper or steel past 300 since I have the privilege (or just not miss a deer lol). Any recommendations on a BCG would be appreciated as well. Having a hard time finding the upper parts for this platform unlike the AR 15. Dunno if I need a gen 1 or 2, if that makes a difference. Just wanna start at the barrel and work my way back. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Valetic said: Here’s the specs I want. 18 or 18 1/2 inch, heavy barrel, 11-11.5 twist, Stainless steel, Nitrided, end of barrel threaded, planned on using somewhere between 150-180 grain bullets, Common twist rate that you're looking for is 1:11.25" twist. You'll only find 1:11" or 1:11.5" from custom barrel makers, and it'll cost you to have them rifle it in one of those two. Now, why do you want that twist rate over 1:10" twist? Next, I'm not aware of any manufacturers make stainless barrels with nitrided treatment. Steel barrels get nitride. Stainless don't. So once again, that custom barrel makers stuff, and $$$,if that's what you really have to have. Here's a barrel for you, that meets most of your expectations, it's a match barrel, and shoots light out. https://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelfatitan185nmmedss1x10936gasblock.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 ToolCraft for the BCG, or the Fulton Armory BCG. Fulton Armory will test headspace for you, if you buy their BCG at the same time as the barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 26 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: Common twist rate that you're looking for is 1:11.25" twist. You'll only find 1:11" or 1:11.5" from custom barrel makers, and it'll cost you to have them rifle it in one of those two. Now, why do you want that twist rate over 1:10" twist? Next, I'm not aware of any manufacturers make stainless barrels with nitrided treatment. Steel barrels get nitride. Stainless don't. So once again, that custom barrel makers stuff, and $$$,if that's what you really have to have. Here's a barrel for you, that meets most of your expectations, it's a match barrel, and shoots light out. https://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelfatitan185nmmedss1x10936gasblock.aspx I say 1:11 ish because of the grain I plan on using, and I do have the opportunity to shoot some steel around 700-1000 yards so proper twisting might be appropriate for those distances. I’m not trying to get into long range shooting too much but it would be great to learn. Was also unaware stainless didn’t get nitride. So thanks for that as well. 27 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: ToolCraft for the BCG, or the Fulton Armory BCG. Fulton Armory will test headspace for you, if you buy their BCG at the same time as the barrel. Thanks I’ll check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Valetic said: I say 1:11 ish because of the grain I plan on using, and I do have the opportunity to shoot some steel around 700-1000 yards so proper twisting might be appropriate for those distances. I’m not trying to get into long range shooting too much but it would be great to learn. Proper twist to get out to those ranges - 700 yards to 1000 yards - is gonna be 1:10" twist. That will do better tahn a 1:11.25" twist barrel, because it will stabilize the heavies better. 168gr projectiles suck at 1000 yards, over the 175gr projectiles. If you're going to dabble in long range, a 1:10" twist will suit you far better than 1:11.25" twist. 1:10 does great with projectiles down to about 150gr, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: Proper twist to get out to those ranges - 700 yards to 1000 yards - is gonna be 1:10" twist. That will do better tahn a 1:11.25" twist barrel, because it will stabilize the heavies better. 168gr projectiles suck at 1000 yards, over the 175gr projectiles. If you're going to dabble in long range, a 1:10" twist will suit you far better than 1:11.25" twist. 1:10 does great with projectiles down to about 150gr, too. Theoretically a 1:11 would be closer to the gyroscopic stability the manufacturers would recommend for a 175 over a 1:10 since that would be stretching it closer to over-stabilization. I’m not sure a 1:10 would be “better” until you start getting past 200 or 210. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Valetic said: Theoretically a 1:11 would be closer to the gyroscopic stability the manufacturers would recommend for a 175 over a 1:10 since that would be stretching it closer to over-stabilization. I’m not sure a 1:10 would be “better” until you start getting past 200 or 210. Aaaaand... you can believe that if you want. That's not practical experience, at least none that I've experienced. But, you do what you want. You did state that you wanted to shoot 700~1,000 yards, am I correct on that? You shoot in any wind at all, and you'll find out fast, what I'm saying. My typical range out here is warming up on the 500, and confirming it on the 850. If you think I'm bulshiiting you, then you're on your own. You can apply as many "theoreticallys" as you want to the information I've already given you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbird Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 People get way way too twisted over twist :-). Good barrel and good bullets in 6mm as one example a 1/8 will still shoot under 1/2" with 75 grain bullets. Crappy barrel and crappy bullets does not shoot worth crap anyway. I would not lose a wink of sleep going 1/10 instead of 1/11.375 ;-). Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 9 hours ago, Valetic said: Theoretically a 1:11 would be closer to the gyroscopic stability the manufacturers would recommend for a 175 over a 1:10 since that would be stretching it closer to over-stabilization. I’m not sure a 1:10 would be “better” until you start getting past 200 or 210. Have you ever shot those distances? How you know? Something you read? We have plenty of time behind the trigger and both 1:10 and 1:11.25 will be fine. If your shooting .25 MOA and are looking to reload and keep that then maybe..... until then you wouldn’t see the difference between the two until you have a thousand rds at that distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, edgecrusher said: Have you ever shot those distances? How you know? Something you read? We have plenty of time behind the trigger and both 1:10 and 1:11.25 will be fine. If your shooting .25 MOA and are looking to reload and keep that then maybe..... until then you wouldn’t see the difference between the two until you have a thousand rds at that distance. Tbh just research and calculators. I don’t see a problem running 130-180 on a 1:11 which I’ve convinced myself I’m getting. I also heard long range shooters typically run a certain 168 or 175 on the .308 No, the farthest I’ve shot was around 300 yards, the farthest deer I’ve shot was about 200. I’m also only getting an 18” barrel. My setup won’t really be match worthy. I just want to get into it and maybe one day if I get more serious I would just make a setup that’s not in the .308 I was a little more concerned about the aerodynamic stability but after a bit more researching learned that it isn’t a big deal at 1000 yards. Still just wanted to optimize for my grain though. I don’t think 1:11 will hurt anything there imo. Besides all that, I think I decided on getting a craddock made bartlein. Probably gonna run me up around 900-$1000 after it’s said and done. And then a JP LMOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 18” and 175 gr plus can get you out there with some practice. That’s a nice little set up. I like the option of the 16.5” rifle gas, just not the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 Also. Many here have trigger time and give answers based on that. Calculators and internet logic are fine until it’s not. 98z5v has the most of all of us and he and Matt Cross have both taught some great classes at a top secret facility which were proven on afterward on the range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, edgecrusher said: Calculators and internet logic are fine until it’s not. This probably gets me in more trouble than I’d like to admit. Didn’t mean to come in here with a lack of respect. Was just being a bit headstrong because I thought I knew what I wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 You do know what you want. Buy it. Shoot it. Learn it. Then build another and compare. If you get good enough to see the difference between 1:10 and 1:11....you’ll be a damn good shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, Valetic said: This probably gets me in more trouble than I’d like to admit. Didn’t mean to come in here with a lack of respect. Was just being a bit headstrong because I thought I knew what I wanted. Don't sweat it, you've done your research and that's more than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted March 21, 2020 Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Valetic said: This probably gets me in more trouble than I’d like to admit. Didn’t mean to come in here with a lack of respect. Was just being a bit headstrong because I thought I knew what I wanted. You’re good, it was just a statement. Many come here with internet knowledge but not much practical and refuse the information we try to give them. You’ll be fine here. We will help you get sorted and out to the range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2020 53 minutes ago, edgecrusher said: You’re good, it was just a statement. Many come here with internet knowledge but not much practical and refuse the information we try to give them. You’ll be fine here. We will help you get sorted and out to the range. Thanks for that. I’ll probably be posting more questions about my setup soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 You'll see alot of barrels advertised as 1:11" twist, but they're not that. They're 1:11.25" twist. That's the number that Eugene Stoner came up with for twist rate for the M110 design, when he was working for Knight's Armament, desigining the M110. The Army mandated the projectile, 175gr Sierra MatchKing, and they mandated the effective point-target range of the weapons platform, as well as the barrel length of the design. Eugene Stoner determined that the 1:11.25" twist was perfect for that barrel profile, range and barrel length that the Army mandated. Advertisers and marketing people get that wrong, but it won't matter. If you see something listed as 1:11" twist, just know that it's 1:11.25" twist, and that's the reason. No manufacturer is rifling barrel blanks at 1:11". I shoot some 195gr handloads through a 1:10" twist AR. That's all I have for .308 Winchester guns, minus one Kimber bolt gun that's 1:12" twist. All the other .308s, be it bolt gun or AR, are 1:10" barrels. If 1:11.25" is absolutely perfect for 175s at distance - would they stabilize the 195s that I play with? I have no idea, because I don't have any of those barrels. Will either work? Hell yeah, they're both gonna get you to 1k yards, if you do your part, and you built a good gun. The heavier your projectile, the less the wind will mess with it. If you can get the initial muzzle velocity up where it needs to be, the heavier projectile will have a longer transonic range than a lighter projectile. This does not apply to subsonic loads and projectile weights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 3 hours ago, 98Z5V said: If you see something listed as 1:11" twist, just know that it's 1:11.25" twist That’s weird because Krieger has the custom page where you can get 11 and 11.25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Valetic said: That’s weird because Krieger has the custom page where you can get 11 and 11.25 Krieger actually DOES rifle their own barrels, and can do whatever they want for twist. Very, very few "barrel makers" actually rifle their own barrels - they buy rifled blanks, contour them, chamber them, etc... from rifled blanks. Krieger, Wilson Arms, Green Mountain, Bartlein, PacNor, Ballistic Advantage, Faxon - they actually really make barrels, from metal rounds, rifling included. Olympic Arms used to, but I don't know if they're still doing it these days. A whole bunch of other companies don't do that, buy rifled blanks, and do the rest of the work. Best bet - you see someone advertise a 1:11" twist - call them. It's gonna be a 1:11.25" barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, 98Z5V said: Best bet - you see someone advertise a 1:11" twist - call them. I figured I was going to have to call whoever I buy from anyways, since I’m being really picky. But that’s good to know too. I heard great things about Krieger groupings. I would do JP but from what I’ve seen so far, getting a better barrel from JP can be luck of the draw sometimes. Just seems that Krieger is a very consistent manufacturer with close groups compared to others. What do you think about the rifling? I heard it doesn’t really make a difference for the .308 at least, and most people get a 6 or 5 groove. If I had the option I was going to do 4, but then again rifling is probably the thing I am least studied up on, that and types and grades of metals and steel. Edited March 22, 2020 by Valetic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagebrush Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 8:54 AM, Valetic said: Tbh just research and calculators. I don’t see a problem running 130-180 on a 1:11 which I’ve convinced myself I’m getting. I also heard long range shooters typically run a certain 168 or 175 on the .308 No, the farthest I’ve shot was around 300 yards, the farthest deer I’ve shot was about 200. I’m also only getting an 18” barrel. My setup won’t really be match worthy. I just want to get into it and maybe one day if I get more serious I would just make a setup that’s not in the .308 I was a little more concerned about the aerodynamic stability but after a bit more researching learned that it isn’t a big deal at 1000 yards. Still just wanted to optimize for my grain though. I don’t think 1:11 will hurt anything there imo. Besides all that, I think I decided on getting a craddock made bartlein. Probably gonna run me up around 900-$1000 after it’s said and done. And then a JP LMOS. may want to think about this some more ^ if this is a shtf gun. I have one on 243win I built and it works great set up for one load. if you're going to shoot whats available (different bullet weights) you will have to reset gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 Or build a gun that eats anything you feed it. Knowing how and what you’ll use it for is the first part of the equation. There is no one do-it-all answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetic Posted March 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 I would assume getting high quality parts and spending a bit of money would net me a reliable rifle.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 7 minutes ago, Valetic said: I would assume getting high quality parts and spending a bit of money would net me a reliable rifle.. Assumptions aren't worth much, as opposed to the many years of first-hand experience you'll encounter here. There are a lot of products that have been proven and disproven amongst this forum's membership, and there's much to be gained from their lost time and money on products that were/are overstated in their effectiveness. Please don't take that the wrong way, I mean no offense or hostility. Just understand that we've seen a great many folks learn the hard way that theory and practicality are frequently worlds apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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