Barrels

[washguy]

Hi Guys    H is right on...the two 6.8's ive got from him are works of art...im sure his barrels will out live me....Now if H will do the deed on the light 308 barrels count me in!

  H  am I first in line? <thumbsup>  Wash

[planeflyer21]

Melonite processing:  http://www.burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html

Jon

[constructor - Banned]

Hi Guys    H is right on...the two 6.8's ive got from him are works of art...im sure his barrels will out live me....Now if H will do the deed on the light 308 barrels count me in!

  H  am I first in line? <thumbsup>  Wash

You know how it is trying to get barrels this time of year... hunting season...Thanksgiving...Christmas...SHOT show. Really I hope to see them in Feb. if they finish the 11 twist 5R button quick enough. The first batch will be 18" lightweight Melonite treated just because there are plenty of everything else. The biggest complaint I hear is about the weight of the 308s.

[washguy]

You know how it is trying to get barrels this time of year... hunting season...Thanksgiving...Christmas...SHOT show. Really I hope to see them in Feb. if they finish the 11 twist 5R button quick enough. The first batch will be 18" lightweight Melonite treated just because there are plenty of everything else. The biggest complaint I hear is about the weight of the 308s.

So H...am I first in line? Feb is fine !  <thumbsup>  Wash

[survivalshop]

Melonite is not a coating it is a heat treat.

I've had about 8000 of them done in the last 3 years as of Oct.

I spec the surface at 68 R .010 deep. that means the .004" tall lands are 68 rockwell all the way through.

The military tests have shown Melonite treated barrels to last apx 30% longer than chrome lined. They are the only barrels to ever pass the 36hr salt spray test.

5 Navy guys in San Diego have been getting 3/8" groups at 100 yds with these plain production 4150 CMV Melonite treated barrels using factory Hornady 110gr HPBTs...6.8

We have some 556s that will shoot 24gr Re15 behind 69gr SMKs into 1/2" at 100 so yes I believe they are better than chrome lined barrels for the same cost.

From the sight about the process,

"During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (e - FexN)."

Sure sounds like a coating .

This is new stuff to me & most , I'm sure .I'm not trying to cut it down or any thing like that ,just trying see what its about.

It sounds good ,but too new yet & not enough imput from years of testing on barrels .

It is the same as the my first post , where is a comparison of different barrels & now types ? Its still a " my barrel is better than yours " comparison ,sorry but it fits.

I have two builds ready for barrels & I'm interested in what this process has to offer , pro's & con's .

I'm going to check out the bench rest shooters sight for info also.

[constructor - Banned]

A coating is something that is applied to the surface of a barrel.

Changing the structure of the steel and hardening it from 42 rockwell to almost 70 rockwell is not a coating. Carburization is a case hardening process,  You should read carefully about the process because at the moment you don't sound like you have a clue.

"Carburizing or carburising (chiefly British English) is a heat treatment process in which iron or steel absorbs carbon liberated when the metal is heated in the presence of a carbon bearing material, such as charcoal or carbon monoxide, with the intent of making the metal harder. Depending on the amount of time and temperature, the affected area can vary in carbon content. Longer carburizing times and higher temperatures lead to greater carbon diffusion into the part as well as increased depth of carbon diffusion. When the iron or steel is cooled rapidly by quenching, the higher carbon content on the outer surface becomes hard via the transformation from austenite to martensite, while the core remains soft and tough as a ferritic and/or pearlite microstructure.[1]"

"Nitriding is a heat treating process that diffuses nitrogen into the surface of a metal to create a case hardened surface. It is predominantly used on steel, but also titanium, aluminum and molybdenum."

"Melonite™ and Melonite QPQ™ are thermochemical processes intended for the case hardening of iron based metals. These processes are categorized as molten salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing. During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (e - FexN)."

Notice all 3 are similar, some use gas and some use liquid in the process to achieve similar results.

edit-sp

[Robocop1051]

That was the long way of saying, "trust me, it's a fancy new way of SUPER case hardening."

That's good enough for me. I think I'm getting ready to pick up one of those 7.62x39 middy barrels. I really wish they were 14.5" instead of 16  :'(

[Matt.Cross]

That was the long way of saying, "trust me, it's a fancy new way of SUPER case hardening."

That's good enough for me. I think I'm getting ready to pick up one of those 7.62x39 middy barrels. I really wish they were 14.5" instead of 16  :'(

Bear with us technical types, we like lengthy explanations... ;)

[unforgiven]

You guys do a great job of explaining even a caveman like me can understand  <lmao> Shoot on bro.

[98Z5V]

  You should read carefully about the process because at the moment you don't sound like you have a clue.

You sound like an ass, the way you made that comment.  We typically don't do that here, just so you know. 

[constructor - Banned]

You sound like an ass, the way you made that comment.  We typically don't do that here, just so you know.

We have a really good tech forum (68forums) that I have been a part of since  06, people go there to learn because they know it's good info. There are enough guys there that really know their stuff to keep out the BS before it takes hold. People that have a "moderator" title have some influence because of the title. Guys come here and read "Melonite is a coating" because a guy with a "moderator" title says so are being mislead. There have been at least 2 links here that detail the process and it is very clear it is a heat treat and has been used for 5 years I know of, it's not too new but your moderator posts this-

From the sight about the process,

"During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (e - FexN)."

Sure sounds like a coating .

This is new stuff to me & most , I'm sure .I'm not trying to cut it down or any thing like that ,just trying see what its about.

It sounds good ,but too new yet & not enough imput from years of testing on barrels .

It is the same as the my first post , where is a comparison of different barrels & now types ? Its still a " my barrel is better than yours " comparison ,sorry but it fits.

Before your moderators start posting incorrect info they may want to read and fully understand things. Sorry but it fits.

No one I know is going to buy 40-50 barrels and spend thousands of dollars on ammo testing so they can put the info on the internet. you may get this barrel is better than that barrel from a very few that have actually tested barrels side by side meaning the same ammo at the same time but very very few even do that.

Armalite uses a lot of Wilson Arms(not Wilson Combat) barrels, they are lapped but not considered a real match barrel like a Krieger, Hart, Lilja, Broughton or  Bartlein. Some Fulton Armory barrels are made by Krieger's Criterion division, they are button rifled not cut rifled, good barrels also but not considered to be real match barrels. Wilson Combat uses ER Shaw barrels and calls them match grade, far from it but they shoot good for a production barrel. DPMS barrel blanks are made by Montana barrels,DPMS says they finish them, they are lapped but not a match barrel.

Now my opinion- does any of that mean anything at all? No

Lock the cheapest barrel in a shooting machine and shoot it...it will outshoot 90% of all humans with the best barrel. A $500 Krieger barrel will only shoot as well as the trigger puller. On the other hand I know where a team of 5 Navy guys are that can take what is thought my many to be the worst quality barrel made and shoot 3/8" groups at 100 yds with factory ammo.

It's not the barrel it's the driver. Buy what ever you want and learn how to shoot it, you'll be better off than the guy that is always looking over the fence at the greener grass.

You're right, I can be an ass.

[98Z5V]

You're just not catching on.  I'll explain this one more time for you:  You can insult the members here just so many times - We typically don't do that here.  If you continue this, you might not be here much longer.  Is that clear?

Don't come back with a rebuttal, and not even acknowledge what I first said - the smart thing to do is say "Hey guys, sorry I did that..."

[Jgun]

It appears that this thread has, unfortunately taken a bad turn. I almost regret my post about trying the melonite process. I may be mistaken, but I don't think that I stated that anything I was saying about the process was fact, that was the reason I gave for my intention to try out the process for myself, specifically on a barrel that I have already tried before treatment. Although I have read a number of descriptions of how the process is performed, and have spoken to tech reps of companies that actually perform the process, I have both read and been warned, that there are potential problems with the high temperature routinely used for the process, to soften the core hardness of parts that are treated, while at the same time increasing it's surface hardness. maybe some of this is the companies not wishing to be held responsible if the process weakens a part so treated. But, because of the fact that no one seems to ever be willing to guarantee that the process will have no detrimental effect on the accuracy of a barrel, I was looking for some feed back from others that had already used it, and in no way was it my intent to give the impression that anything I was stating was fact. Although I do believe that the above moderator was actually in error when he stated that he interpreted what was written as a description of a coating instead of a surface treatment, I would agree that as 98 has said, the response was uncalled for. Furthermore, I don't think that the moderator stated that it was a coating, only that in his opinion the description indicated that it was.

Sometimes when someone with a great deal of knowledge and experience on a subject, observes others that don't have the same, are possibly passing on erroneous information, there is a tendency to become upset by it, but I think all here can agree that there was no intent by the moderator to knowingly mislead any reader of this thread.

[constructor - Banned]

You're just not catching on.  I'll explain this one more time for you:  You can insult the members here just so many times - We typically don't do that here.  If you continue this, you might not be here much longer.  Is that clear?

Don't come back with a rebuttal, and not even acknowledge what I first said - the smart thing to do is say "Hey guys, sorry I did that..."

No need, this isn't my kind of forum so I wasn't planning on hanging out here just bored.

[98Z5V]

Regretfully, with your own actions and attitude, you've probably lost yourself some sales.  Hate to see people do that to themselves.  I wish you luck.

[survivalshop]

We have a really good tech forum (68forums) that I have been a part of since  06, people go there to learn because they know it's good info. There are enough guys there that really know their stuff to keep out the BS before it takes hold. People that have a "moderator" title have some influence because of the title. Guys come here and read "Melonite is a coating" because a guy with a "moderator" title says so are being mislead. There have been at least 2 links here that detail the process and it is very clear it is a heat treat and has been used for 5 years I know of, it's not too new but your moderator posts this-

From the sight about the process,

"During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (e - FexN)."

Sure sounds like a coating .

This is new stuff to me & most , I'm sure .I'm not trying to cut it down or any thing like that ,just trying see what its about.

It sounds good ,but too new yet & not enough imput from years of testing on barrels .

It is the same as the my first post , where is a comparison of different barrels & now types ? Its still a " my barrel is better than yours " comparison ,sorry but it fits.

Before your moderators start posting incorrect info they may want to read and fully understand things. Sorry but it fits.

No one I know is going to buy 40-50 barrels and spend thousands of dollars on ammo testing so they can put the info on the internet. you may get this barrel is better than that barrel from a very few that have actually tested barrels side by side meaning the same ammo at the same time but very very few even do that.

Armalite uses a lot of Wilson Arms(not Wilson Combat) barrels, they are lapped but not considered a real match barrel like a Krieger, Hart, Lilja, Broughton or  Bartlein. Some Fulton Armory barrels are made by Krieger's Criterion division, they are button rifled not cut rifled, good barrels also but not considered to be real match barrels. Wilson Combat uses ER Shaw barrels and calls them match grade, far from it but they shoot good for a production barrel. DPMS barrel blanks are made by Montana barrels,DPMS says they finish them, they are lapped but not a match barrel.

Now my opinion- does any of that mean anything at all? No

Lock the cheapest barrel in a shooting machine and shoot it...it will outshoot 90% of all humans with the best barrel. A $500 Krieger barrel will only shoot as well as the trigger puller. On the other hand I know where a team of 5 Navy guys are that can take what is thought my many to be the worst quality barrel made and shoot 3/8" groups at 100 yds with factory ammo.

It's not the barrel it's the driver. Buy what ever you want and learn how to shoot it, you'll be better off than the guy that is always looking over the fence at the greener grass.

You're right, I can be an ass.

Did you even read my post . No where in it ,did it state any facts except for the statement from a description of the process . I was asking questions & even implyed, I new nothing about it because it was new to me .

I may be dumb , but when you see "defused into the surface of the steel " any thing you put on the surface of any thing , is a coating . I don't care how its done. 

I even said I was interested in it , but now not so sure .

Just because they gave me a mod. title here does not mean I know every thing . I've been building , repairing firearms for over thirty years & with that experience , I look at every thing that comes out that I know nothing about , very thoroughly . I have seen a lot come & go that did not pan out in this industry & am quite sceptical of things new to me & that has worked well for me on sharing info to others, who rely & trust my experience.

We know its the nut behind the barrel that will determine the outcome of the performance of said rifle , but in my experience there are a lot of factors that contribute to it . A std AR trigger will keep any rifle from performing to its max , I don't care who you put behind it .

So , you got a couple of Navy guys ,shooting your worst barrels & doing good , well when you have your barrel winning national match's , then you can really say something .

That's my opinion & I was in the Navy also!

I take no offence ,Constructor, you have good info in your post , thanks .