mils -moa

[shooterrex]

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/08/moa-mils-math-long-range-shooting/#ixzz74Mvy9bcu

[jim3326]

Thanks for the link. This helps me a lot.

[98Z5V]

There's some flaws in the MOA calculations in that article.  Can be major ones, depending on how far you shoot.  They didn't fuk the Mils up too bad (actually nailed it, 3.6" is one Mil at 100 yards), but I don't like how they just rounded up all the MOA stuff.  If you shoot distance, don't round it up until the very end - you definitely don't round it up at the beginning, because that just fuks you down the line.

Examples - MOA = 1.04"  MOA actually is 1.047" at 100 yards.  Run that one out long, and see how it does.  Their calculation of .96 for one of their math problems.  Well, it's actually .955, in the equation that they're running.  Run that one out long, too. 

Here's what I teach - inches of target - we shoot IPSC plates out here, to train range estimation, target aquisition, and target engagement.  IPSC targets are 18" wide.  So are deer, belly to back, so are coyotes and average pigs, hoof/foot to top of back, so are deer, wide, when head on...  18".  So, if you know that, going into it, for AVERAGE animals...  then, teach that number.

Here's the two formulas, and where the issues in that article come to life - and it's more important on MOA, because one Mil = 3.4377 MOA...

The numbers for MOA are 3.4377 bigger than a mil.  That's more refinement, and more reason to be more accurate in the calculations.  One Mil is 3.6" at 100 yards.  1/10 Mil clicks is 0.36" per click.  3 clicks is roughly 1" @ 100 yards. Got it.

One MOA is 1.047" at 100 yards.  quarter clicks on most scopes, 1/4" per click.  Got that, too.

Here's the deal, for range estimation, both Mils and MOA, and the real numbers, that won't fuk you down the line, at longer ranges.

INCHES of TARGET (You need to know what you're shooting at, especially hunting)...  

Inches of target DIVIDED BY observed Mils or MOA, TIMES the CONSTANT = YARDS to target.

Here's the constants...  The MIL constant is 27.778 (NOT 27.8, like you might find out there).  The MOA constant is 95.5 (not the 96 factor in that article).

18" target width, observed by you, covers ONE MIL in your scope gradients.  TIMES 27.778 = YARDS to target.

Run it.  18" / 1 x 27.778 = 500.004 yards to target. 

Let's run the MOA on that one.  One Mil = 3.4377 MOA.  Given.  18" target, covers 3.4377 MOA in your crosshairs and scope gradients, so 18" DIVIDED BY observed MOA (3.4377) TIMES 95.5 = YARDS to target.  Looks like this:

18"/3.4377 = 5.2360598. TIMES 95.5 = 500.04362 YARDS to target...

That's the same damn shot, through both scopes, looking at the same target, buried in the ground by t-posts, and swinging off the same chains to the target. Or, on the hoof.  FDE-colored critter, probably, if we're in North America.  Deer, most squirrels, most rabbits, 1/2 the bear here - All FDE. 

Now, measure 1 Mil through a scope, and then try to MEASURE 3.4377 MOA through an MOA scope.  Good luck on that one.    If your eyeball is THAT calibrated, I want to drink at the campfire with YOU, COWBOY!...  

Weird, how math works.  Weird, how math won't work right, when you round it all early, and fuk up all your constants, going in, from the beginning. 

For Mil shooters, I might be 1/10 or 2/10 off.  For MOA shooters, supposedly the more accurate system as claimed by many MOA shooters, you might be WAY off and miss, if you're using that 96 claimed in that article, or that 1.04" claimed in that article.  Don't run their numbers for some long distance. 

I have formulas out the ass on this stuff.  Yards, meters, inches observed, yards observed, meters observed, centimeters observed, whatever.  There's a formula for all of them.  But, it's all garbage in/garbage out, if you start rounding all those numbers early in the formulas. 

Here's some MOA math...   If it's really 1/4" per click, 4 clicks per MOA.  IF one inch is one MOA at 100 yards - when it's really 1.047" at 100 yards.  Quick math - I have a target that's 18" wide, and I place it at 1760 yards (common for us, and it's exactly what we shoot at one mile).  So, 18" wide target at 1760 yards - that's bigger than one MOA, right?  Nope, it's not one MOA wide.  One MOA at a mile is 18.4272"...   That 18" wide target is not even one MOA at a mile.  And that's some hard shiit to pull off, whack a sub-MOA target at a mile...  

Math matters.  Accurate math matters even more.  Weaponize math, gents. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

FWIW, since I brought up the mile...  You don't chase impacts at that distance.  You better have a 1 MOA gun, and you need to be a 1 MOA shooter.  You run your gun.  You know your gun, you better know your dope, and you just dial your gun, and you run it. My .300 Win Mag is my Mile Gun.  I dial that thing to 16.9 mils, and shoot.  If it doesn't hit it, then it's pretty damn close, and I didn't quite get the wind call that shot.  I've cold-bored that fucker ONCE.  Perfect elevation, 3" to the left of center, of the very center of the target.  I've second-shot hit it twice.  First round, nope, 2nd - yep, impact.  Dial it 16.9 mils every single time - that's what it does, where it needs to be, for that shot distance.  You have to know your gun, your dope, your scope, and your dial-for-distance - and it all has to be accurate information.  There's no room for "garbage-in/garbage-out" for that stuff - it needs to be dialed, as far as you can dial it.

"Left impact, 1/2 target wide!" is your spotter's call.  You better not adjust 1/2 target right, based on that, or you might go 2 targets right, if you do...  One MOA gun, One MOA dude shooting  - that's a sweet setup!!!   Not even a One MOA target wide that you're shooting at in the first place...   know your dope, know your scope, know your dial, shoot your gun.  You hold the same exact thing to that last call of "Left impact, 1/2 target wide!" - run the exact same shot - same exact hold, same shot, same felt recoil through the gun, and same exact "target snapshot" in your scope when the trigger broke...  Left first time, right this time.  Run your gun.  Run your dope.  At that range, even reading the wind - the wind changes, indiscriminately, over that kind of distance.  There's 2 things that you can do to mitigate that wind, over that kind of distance, shot-to-shot...   Jack, and Shiit...     Run your gun.  You better know your gun... 

Edited March 30, 2023 by 98Z5V

[Sisco]

98, you need to write a book on this.

[Magwa]

Thanks 98Z5V And that is what you call a mater class in this deep space $hit called long range shooting now one thing no one talked about is your dope for your gun NOT his gun or their gun but YOUR gun finding true zero!!!!!!!!! not almost, not good enough but true zero then finding the load for your rifle and loading that load the same each and every time that will give you the chance to have a cold bore 1 mile hit without awesome ammo you have 1 chance and that is in hell of cold bore 1 mile shot. in long range it is the little things pay attention to them do not skip them ...

   I at this time can only do long range because of electronics I hope to learn how to range and then hit a target at 1250 yards or whatever with no batteries....

[jim3326]

Yeah, I noticed the rounding and wondered how big an impact, or miss, it would make. Discounting the numbers, it was more the process that helps me.

[98Z5V]

17 hours ago, Sisco said:

98, you need to write a book on this.

I'm just the "Laymen's Terms" for explaining shiit like this.  Dumb it down, for the masses, as much as you can.  Army.  You train people.  You train some REALLY SMART people, and you have to train some REALLY DUMB FUCKERS, too.  Part of the game - you have to be able to train ALL of them in a way that ALL of them get it.  Make it funny, humorous, serious, non-chalant, whatever - whatever gets them to learn it all, and get proficient.  THAT is the hard part - judging and figuring out the audience, and then helping them get it...   It sucks, more than "it's fun!..."   For real. 

I started hard - hard-headed.  Learn this shiit on my own, took alot away from the US Army, and training.  Spent alot of money on ammo, guns, shooting, range time.  And then, it hit me... 

Eh (Canadian "EH!"), I cheated.  Someone else wrote the book, so I bought it, and read it about 5 times cover-to-cover.  I'm on the 6th time now, just because there's so much information to absorb.  I'll never get it all, but I'm trying.  Bryan Litz wrote the book, and it's the one to have, for external ballistics.  Internal ballistics is reloading - that's equally important, to making accurate loads.  Internal ballistics all happen inside the gun, and determine how accurate your load will be.  External ballistics are all the factors that affect your projectile as soon as it leaves the barrel.  Bryan Litz is the king of that.  Here's the book to own, and try to absorb - it'll be a long process, trust me, an cost alot in ammo practicing...    

There are a couple other books I have that are wonderful teachers, and I'll list them in another post.  THIS BOOK, though, is the one.  It breaks everything down into real information, that can't be refuted.  It's solid facts. 

 

15 hours ago, Magwa said:

Thanks 98Z5V And that is what you call a mater class in this deep space $hit called long range shooting now one thing no one talked about is your dope for your gun NOT his gun or their gun but YOUR gun finding true zero!!!!!!!!! not almost, not good enough but true zero then finding the load for your rifle and loading that load the same each and every time that will give you the chance to have a cold bore 1 mile hit without awesome ammo you have 1 chance and that is in hell of cold bore 1 mile shot. in long range it is the little things pay attention to them do not skip them ...

   I at this time can only do long range because of electronics I hope to learn how to range and then hit a target at 1250 yards or whatever with no batteries....

Yeah, brother - one gun.  YOUR gun.  That's the only thing that matters.  You need to know that thing inside and out, know that reticle, know that dial, know that projectile drop at distance - your dope chart need to be in your head, for hunting.  At the very least, the MPBR - Maximum Point Blank Range - needs to be ingrained inside your brain pan, for hunting.  Long Range hunting - different game.  Long Range shooting - as well, different game.  You'll never be able to memorize all that shiit.  You have to trust your dope chart, and that thing better be accurate, as fuk.  Again, garbage in/garbage out, when you're developing it.  You trash a number going in, then the whole dope chart is worthless, and even more worthless the longer distance you decide to shoot...  Having a printed dope chart on your person is the best defense, when the batteries die in all the fancy gadgets. 

Hardest job in the world, kid you not - Me, observing targets, and spotting for @Matt.Cross...  I'm serious...    I'm all about Mils, and HE is the world's worst MOA-Whore for scopes.  When I'm spotting for him, it's like triple duty - I need to watch his shot, I need to observe his shot in my Mil scope, THEN, I have to convert that shiit on the fly and give him a correction in MOA...   QUICK, TOO!!!   HE AIN'T WAITING AROUND FOR A CALCULATOR!!!     It's rough, and I should be awarded a medal just for taking up the task.  I round it up, I won't lie, and I hate rounding these numbers.  I see him 2 mils off (2 x 3.4377) - Fuk that.  That's 3.5, right then.  Matt, your 7 MOA off...   Ish... 

Edited March 31, 2023 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

As soon as someone else cold-bores the mile, and gets to within 3" of the very epicenter of that target, I'll give them my new coffee cup that someone made for me...  

Hasn't happened yet, though...  

[98Z5V]

My Kestrel wind meter blue-tooths to my laser range finder.  The Kestrel is loaded with Applied Ballistics software, for firing solutions.  If I load my gun data and load data into the Kestrel, I lase the target with the range finder, and the Kestrel immediately gets the data, tells me the dial that I need to make the shot - right on the screen of the Kestrel.  I don't use it to shoot targets.  I only use it to proof my Dope Charts, at distance.  I hardly ever use the thing, like it's intended to be used.  It's one HELL of a powerful tool, combined together with the two devices.

The Dope Charts are where it's at, when the batteries die, and you have no more power.  Same with all this technology shiit.  Look at Land Navigation.  GPS.  Millions of motherfuckers are Land Nav heroes.  Until their batteries die.  Can they use a compass, protractor (with a string), and a map?  Do they know how to covert the numbers on that map to Lat/Longs with a 30cm ruler?  Yeah, probably not.  Can they look at terrain lines on a topo map, and "see" the terrain in front of them?  Again, probably not.

Same here.  When the batteries die, can you shoot the gun a long, long way out?  No electronic aids? 

15 hours ago, Magwa said:

I at this time can only do long range because of electronics I hope to learn how to range and then hit a target at 1250 yards or whatever with no batteries....

This right here is exactly why I do what I do, brother, teach what I teach.  Learn it old-school, absorb it, repeat it, make it memory.  Practice it, make it proficiency.  Once it's at the proficiency level, you won't give two shiits about electronic aids.  They're always there, to make the hunt shot a meat-bringer, when it needs to be done.  But you won't need to rely on any of that shiit, in the long term. 

We'll run the Full-Meal-Deal this Fall.  All the classes, all the way through.  If you - and I mean YOU, Mike, want to do High Angle, we'll hike that big fuckin' hill and do some High Angle training.  We'll run the classes - but going up that hill, and shooting it, makes it stick in your melon.  Forever. 

That hill sucks ass, though, I'm telling you right now...  

After that, you won't even care if you have dead batteries in your stuff, at all.  You won't even check them before you go out shooting - you'll do it all from your head, or simple calculations that are easy to perform in the field.  No batteries required. 

[98Z5V]

These dope charts are forever part of my Long Range Chest Rig...

Every precision-type gun I have has a Dope Chart for it, and it's in that front chest pouch on the Rig. Easy to get to, if I need it.

[98Z5V]

You'll notice a pattern with me.  It's Bryan Litz.  I trust him. 

The books, first.  Unreal information.  Applied Ballistics software, and Applied Ballistics information.  I bought the Kestrel wind meter that was loaded with the Applied Ballistics software.  The book, by itself.  I use JBM Ballistics for calculating all my dope charts - he's involved in that, heavily.  The engines in the JBM Ballistics rely on the Bryan Litz data...   When you select certain projectiles in the beginning, if you select the "Litz profile" for your projectile, your chart and calculations will just be a "little more accurate..."   I'm just sayin'...  

https://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml

Just use the "Simplified Trajectory" calculator for most of your stuff - it's more than sufficient.  The descriptions of the other calculators are listed right there, and you can play around with them and find what suits you best. 

The big thing is projectile selection - look for this, if it's available for your projectile...  It's the first thing you can select, when you get into the calculator - "Library" - that's your projectile selection.  You want to find one of these, if it's available for your projectile:

Here's my example, during projectile selection - my 75gr Hornady HPBT magic projectile.  These NEED to run north of 2750fps from an 18" barrel, for the magic to happen with the projectile (my magic handload is 2789.75fps, averaged over a 30-shot string, 18" barrel).  Well, there's a "standard profile" to select, and there's a "Litz profile" to select - if it's available, you ALWAYS want to select the "Litz" entry - it's a different drag factor, that Bryan Litz put the time into, to develop for that projectile.  It's not a G1 drag factor, it's not a G7 drag factor...   It's the custom Bryan Litz drag factor for that projectile, and it's more accurate in the JBM Ballistics software, for developing a Dope Chart for your gun.  This is why my Mk12 Mod 1 is what it is.  Math... 

(click it - it gets bigger...  That's what she said...)

Weaponize Math, brothers.  It's all out there.  Make your gun more accurate, by using Math.  It's too easy, and it's all out there.  I'll guide you along the way to making a better gun. 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by 98Z5V

[Magwa]

I use the Brian Litz custom drag model on my 6.5x284 with 140 Berger Hybrid projectiles and it is more accurate than either G1 or G7 but then the hybrids are really neither one of those so I guess it makes sense...

[98Z5V]

14 hours ago, Magwa said:

I use the Brian Litz custom drag model on my 6.5x284 with 140 Berger Hybrid projectiles and it is more accurate than either G1 or G7 but then the hybrids are really neither one of those so I guess it makes sense...

I will certainly agree with you on that one, brother - With only 2 x .300 Win Mag rifles hitting the Mile out here, and outside of a .50 Barrett - your gun is literally the only other gun that's hit that target.    In all this time doing this shot, there's only 4 different guns that have connected.  My Win Mag, @JBMatt's Win Mag, @sketch's Barrett M99, and your 6.5x284...   That's it.   Be pretty fucking proud of that gun, and yourself, brother, you did it right. 

[98Z5V]

I don't know if you guys that came out in the Fall remember Nick, the guy that works at POF.  His 7 PRC is gonna get that Mile target, we'll make sure of it.  That gun can do it, but it just didn't happen that day we were going after it.  Sometime over the summer, we'll make that shot.  

[Magwa]

7 mm PRC should be the perfect long range gun without going up to the big boys ... Eric Cortina just won the South African national championship in Fclass with a 284 wheeler which is a 284 Winchester with a special throat so he can shoot 180 grain class bullets.. yeah 7PRC is going to be a beast...

[Rsquared]

I can't wait to set the MRAD loose on the mile shot. I'm just limited to what I can bring when I fly out there  (weight wise).

For example:

Last year I brought an AR-10 SASS, the new MK12, the MK18, sidearm, suppressors and mags and accessories for everything. All of that bumps up close to the weight limit for the flight.

This year, I need to leave an empty slot in my case in anticipation of bringing back the AR-10 SASS that I left with 98 last year. So the MRAD probably won't make it back out this year. But it'll definitely be back the next year. Unless I regroup on the interior of the gun case and bring one less rifle and other stuff to compensate for the weight of the MRAD. She's not exactly the lightest thing.