Powerman Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 So ya.. none anywhere. I called Young Man and they said they are working on .223 and have no idea when they will get back to .308Fulton Armory only has carriers and no way to get on a back order for a complete group. DPMS.... <laughs>So since things are going to be expensive buying private, what list should I get on for a group?JP seems nice. I have no idea how well their "low mass" carriers work... anyone?POF has no way to back order... just says no longer available. So I do not know if that means now... or forever.Any others to consider?Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 So ya.. none anywhere. I called Young Man and they said they are working on .223 and have no idea when they will get back to .308Fulton Armory only has carriers and no way to get on a back order for a complete group. DPMS.... <laughs>So since things are going to be expensive buying private, what list should I get on for a group?JP seems nice. I have no idea how well their "low mass" carriers work... anyone?POF has no way to back order... just says no longer available. So I do not know if that means now... or forever.Any others to consider?Thanks.Check with JP, I've never heard anything bad about their low-mass systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFail Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I'm running JP LMOS BCG and adjustable gas block. I have no complaints as for performance. She runs problem free since I got rid of the Slash's heavy buffer. You would want/need the adjustable gas block for the LMOS BCG to work as JP intended. That said, if you have $450 to blow on a BCG then why not <dontknow>EDIT: anyone need a Slash's CAR 10-XH heavy buffer for a .308? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imschur Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 You would want/need the adjustable gas block for the LMOS BCG to work as JP intended. That said, if you have $450 to blow on a BCG then why not <dontknow> That might be a steal the way prices are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I'm running JP LMOS BCG and adjustable gas block. I have no complaints as for performance. She runs problem free since I got rid of the Slash's heavy buffer. You would want/need the adjustable gas block for the LMOS BCG to work as JP intended. That said, if you have $450 to blow on a BCG then why not <dontknow>EDIT: anyone need a Slash's CAR 10-XH heavy buffer for a .308?I talked to them and they said a regular .308 buffer would be fine. I have a AR-10 buffer... H3/tube/spring. That's the same weight as the heavy buffer. Why is it it is too heavy?I do not have a gas block and have not looked yet what I am going to get. I did see theirs. What is it that I want "adjusted"... more/less running a low mass carrier?I don't exactly have $450 to blow on a BCG... but that is where they are at at this point private, so I might as well wait and get a good one for that money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 If I were you, in your situation, I'd go ahead and snatch up the Fulton carrier. You can build up the carrier later - find a complete bolt, firing pin, cam pin and firing pin retaining pin. Voila - complete BCG that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 And that is a possibility... but it is $260 for a chrome carrier. I still have no bolt and no parts. Nobody has bolts anywhere. By the time I put it together... I would probably be close to the JP. Parts I'm watching are already in that range.LMT finally opened their site back up but do not even list a .308 BCG.... but now Fultons is closed down once again. ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 In a "perspective" kind of way, the Fulton chrome BCGs, complete, were mid-$330s in early 2010, when supply was good. If you caught them during a 10% off sale, you nailed that thing for right under $300 - complete.What you're looking at right now, all things considered, for that carrier, isn't really that bad.Pull the trigger, man, before even that is gone. I'm just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 In a "perspective" kind of way, the Fulton chrome BCGs, complete, were mid-$330s in early 2010, when supply was good. If you caught them during a 10% off sale, you nailed that thing for right under $300 - complete.What you're looking at right now, all things considered, for that carrier, isn't really that bad.Pull the trigger, man, before even that is gone. I'm just sayin'.Pretty much... but it isn't like all is lost. Piecing it out will cost more. I cringe at what whole rifles were going for last year... But I have a Gissele SSA, a 20" FA match SS and a JP bolt carrier... should be a nice set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 You don't really have very many options right now - and it looks like you'll have less options in the future. It's YOUR call. 3 months ago, this was a different story, but it's not the same, anymore.Something to think about. The supply may NEVER come back up, and if you see something that's not "gouging" right now, you'd be best to jump on it.That's my $0.02. Good luck. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Thanks... and just to be clear.... JP is on back order too. But I spoke with them and he was at least a little optimistic that they will be trickling out. If this was just a matter of buying it, it would have already been bought. This is "Plan B".... or pay $600 on Gun Broker for a regular AR-10 BCG... that would be plan C. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 ...or pay $600 on Gun Broker for a regular AR-10 BCG... that would be plan C. ;DOr $3,000.00 for the BCG. That's not some wild-ass guess on my part, either. When I see $10 surplus, beat-to-poop AR mags going for $99.00, then it makes my $3k guess right in line with the gougers out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Or $3,000.00 for the BCG. That's not some wild-ass guess on my part, either. When I see $10 surplus, beat-to-shit AR mags going for $99.00, then it makes my $3k guess right in line with the gougers out there...I'm not going to lie, I'm measuring my BCGs up to gauge the cost of replication by my local machine shop. I can have them made, plated, and shipped back to me finished all without leaving the state. I'm thinking about it pretty hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Your local machine shop needs to know the correct steel grades, correct treating processes, and correct testing processes, in order to get it right - that's where the cost comes from. If they can do it, I'm in.Basically, follow the TDP for a government contracted, issued M16-varient or M4 BCG, and that's what they need to know how to do, and be able to do. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Your local machine shop needs to know the correct steel grades, correct treating processes, and correct testing processes, in order to get it right - that's where the cost comes from. If they can do it, I'm in.Basically, follow the TDP for a government contracted, issued M16-varient or M4 BCG, and that's what they need to know how to do, and be able to do. <thumbsup>Well, so far I've found out that the run-of-the-mill carriers are 8620, and I know that my NiB coated BCG from SI Defense is 416 stainless. Depending on what you decide to coat with, you'll come out with a different Rockwell number, but I think standard chrome eloctroless plating brings you out to Rockwell 70 if memory serves. I haven't talked to my machine shop guy about their treating, but I'm pretty lucky that my plating guys are also hardening & treating experts, so maybe I can get both out of them. It remains to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Bolt material, with shot-peening standards? Magnetic-particle inspected? High-Pressure tested, with the right proof loads? I don't think a machine shop can handle proof-load testing.Not trying to piss in your cheerios, Matt, but this is something that a machine shop can't really do, unless they're a firearms-specific machine shop, with about unlimited access in firearms knowledge. I hope it works, but this isn't lathe and milling work, brother. Not for something that's pushing 60,000 psi about 3 inches from my face. <dontknow> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Bolt material, with shot-peening standards? Magnetic-particle inspected? High-Pressure tested, with the right proof loads? I don't think a machine shop can handle proof-load testing.Not trying to piss in your cheerios, Matt, but this is something that a machine shop can't really do, unless they're a firearms-specific machine shop, with about unlimited access in firearms knowledge. I hope it works, but this isn't lathe and milling work, brother. <dontknow>I hope it works out too, but I'm admittedly going into this blind. The whole thing is a learning experience, inside and out. Oh, and a clarification, I should have mentioned that I'm referring just to the carrier, not the bolt. The bolt itself can wait for a long, LONG time, it's the carrier I want to duplicate.No offense taken brother, just based on your post alone I've already learned two or three things about the bolt that I didn't know before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 For the record, 416 stainless isn't a better material (for a barrel) over 410 stainless. That's why you see alot of 416 barrels, and not very many 410 barrels - 410 is supposed to be a bitch to machine. Bravo Company makes a few 410 barrels, for specific applications, but there aren't many other manufacturers out there that do it. It's pricey stuff. Now, is a 416 stainless carrier better than a 8620 steel carrier? I have no clue, whatsoever. I doubt that the 416 is better than 8620 tool steel, when a 410 ss barrel is better than 416 ss barrels, for strength... Why not make that carrier from 410 ss, then? Bottom line, I'm not trusting ANY stainless steel carrier, until I see numbers. Comparisons. Show me the differences between the two. Not 416 to 410 - that's already there. Show me both 416 and 410 to 8620. Bolts should be from 158 Carpenter steel, as well as tool steel extractors and ejectors... Bottom line, a machine shop can't pull this off. This is poop that they're not used to, and materials a typical machine shop can't even get ahold of. They won't have any idea where to source this stuff from. When they find it, they'll pay out the ass for it, and so will their customer, after machining. Unless they commit to this 110%, buy bulk, and go big, then they won't get discounts on the proper materials.Now... all this is my ass-umption that they're just a machine shop. All this might backfire on me, when I find out that they're truly that badass, and already have cheap sources for true gun-steel.Here's what they need to pull off, in addition to the carrier:Bolt carrier group (auto version) for your AR15, M16, or M4. Parkerized exterior and chrome lined inside carrier. Machined to USGI specifications. This M16/M4 carrier includes the proper Mil-Spec gas key. Gas key is chrome lined and heat treated per GI specifications. Gas key is secured to carrier via USGI domestic mfg Grade 8 fasteners and properly staked per Mil-Specs. These properly hardened parts insure a strong staking and proper gas system functioning. The bolt assembly is machined from the correct Mil-Spec Carpenter No. 158® steel, shot peened for increased strength, includes tool steel machined extractor and ejector.•Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel•HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)•MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)•Shot Peened Bolt•Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)•Chrome Lined Gas Key•Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications•Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners•Key Staked Per Mil-Spec•Tool Steel Extractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 By the way, from a firearms-perspective view...I buy ALOT of BCM complete Bolt Carrier Groups (BCGs). Alot of them. 6 months ago (and for years prior - years), they were $139. About 2 months ago, they were up to $159. I picked up a couple, then. Now, even though unavailable (OOS), they're listed at $179...I bought these for a few years, at the same price. In the last 6 months, the price has gone up twice. It's never, ever going to get any better for us. <dontknow>Get what you can, when you find it. That's really the bottom line. I no jokey about that. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I plan to. Got any laying around. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 You aren't kidding there. I bought a Fulton stripped m16 carrier and the parts to make it complete minus bolt for my latest ar15 venture, for which I bought a JP enhanced bolt with my barrel, and I'm already thinking of more for spares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I'm running JP LMOS BCG and adjustable gas block. I have no complaints as for performance. She runs problem free since I got rid of the Slash's heavy buffer. You would want/need the adjustable gas block for the LMOS BCG to work as JP intended. That said, if you have $450 to blow on a BCG then why not <dontknow>EDIT: anyone need a Slash's CAR 10-XH heavy buffer for a .308?So could you give a bit more info.... Thje adjustable gas block... do you need more or less (more?) Can you run a regular gas block? What was the problem with the heavy buffer? I am going to be using a AR-10 buffer (H3) which is about the same weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I think the point is to run as little gas as possible to get everything to cycle properly. The heavy buffer isn't needed, with the LMOS the point is to get as little mass moving as possible. That is what reduces recoil with that setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerman Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I see. At least normal buffers are cheap. I can see if I need heavy or light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFail Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I see. At least normal buffers are cheap. I can see if I need heavy or light.Yeah I'm running just a normal, or stock if you will, buffer/spring. The AR platform is typically over gassed. With the ability to turn the gas valve in, it's just a set screw in the block, reducing pressure in the system means less punishment in your upper. Brass can be put though less torture too. With the LMOS BCG, since its about 4 oz lighter than typical, you don't need as much pressure even more so. JP now also has the SCS or Silent Captured Spring. This replaces the common buffer design and is just intended to eliminate noise inside the buffer tube. I don't suppose I need that but I want one. They are as much as a CAR 10-XH heavy buffer though, spendy, yet sold out <laughs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.