survivalshop Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) I went to the range today to test some reloads & it was kinda windy , so I didn't try to compare groups , they both shot about the same with the 20" having a little better results , but I was not trying too hard in the wind . Four different loads two different powders , two different Primers & of course two different bbl. lengths.& all 168 gr. SMK's. . COL approximately 2.795", Shot @ close to 100 Yrds. Temp. 80 deg. BARREL POWDER/CHARGE AVERAGE VELOCITY ES SD Primer # 1- 16" bbl. - 40 gr. WC 846 2351 fps 18 fps 7 fps CCI #2- 16"bbl. - 40 gr. WC 846 2368 fps 44 fps 16 fps WW # 3 - 16" bbl.- 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2476 fps 46 fps 15 fps CCI # 4 - 16 " bbl.- 43.5 gr. IMR 4064 2576 fps 48 fps 18 fps WW # 5- 20 " bbl.- 40 gr. - WC 846 2473 fps 38 fps 13 fps WW # 6 - 20 " bbl. 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2606 fps 19 fps 7 fps CCI # 7 - 20" bbl. 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2632 fps 36 fps 12 fps WW # 8 - 20 " bbl. 43.5 gr. IMR 4064 2701 fps 39 fps 16 fps WW The WW primers are on the old side , twenty years old , could be more . The CCI 's are a year or two old .I had no problem putting bullets in the same holes , even with the wind with # 1 in the 16" barrel & # 6 with the 20 " barrel. I had slight primer cratering with the 43.5 gr. IMR 4064 in the 20 " bbl. but none showed up on the ones shot out of the 16" bbl. . another thing with the 20" bbl. , the brass with the 43.5 grs. of 4064 were ejected to the 2 o'clock position . all the 16 " & all other 20" brass were all ejected @ 3:30 position. With the WC 846 , I can maybe go up another grain in powder , but even that may show some signs of excessive pressure & may degrade grouping . We will see because I have to do some tweaking to squeeze the most out of the loads & I haven't got any 175 gr. Bullets yet .Can't wait to see how they shoot . Edited March 12, 2014 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.R.D. Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Wow - great data. What do "ES" and "SD" stand for? I'll look forward to the 175s, then of course, at longer ranges! This is one of the better side-by-side experiments I've seen. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 BARREL POWDER/CHARGE AVERAGE VELOCITY ES SD Primer # 1- 16" bbl. - 40 gr. WC 846 2351 fps 18 fps 7 fps CCI #2- 16"bbl. - 40 gr. WC 846 2368 fps 44 fps 16 fps WW Very, very interesting to see this - the only difference is the primer, but the CCI numbers are over half of the WW numbers. I looked at the other loads, and there aren't "same load but the different primers" in there. I'd like to see more of that, and see if there really is a primer difference. Wow - great data. What do "ES" and "SD" stand for? I'll look forward to the 175s, then of course, at longer ranges! This is one of the better side-by-side experiments I've seen. Thanks for sharing. Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 ES=extreme spread SD=standard deviation Whoops…already answered. The smaller the numbers on both, the better. Those are VERY good numbers! Even factory match grade ammo would be hard pressed to obtain a 7fps SD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted February 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) I was wondering when some one would notice the primer difference , interesting performance between the two . The WW 's are older, so that may be the difference between the two. Those numbers in relation to the primers is why I always use different primers when working up a load , be it for a hunter's ammo or for my use. One other thing to consider is case weight , all the ones in the test ammo were with under two grains in weight of each other , so I had as much of a control test as I could & of course all powder charges were hand weighed with my Pact digital scale . You can also notice that every barrel/chamber has a sweet spot in load development , for a particular bullet , powder & primer combo's can make a round shoot very well @ a particular Velocity, not to mention COL , which we are kinda stuck with Magazine fed rifles for max COL. Go one way or the other, with charge weight & or Primer & you can lose that sweet spot & grouping ability . I'm already making loads to see if I can fine tune what I have . If you wondered why I didn't test the 40 gr. of WC 846 with the CCI primer out of the 20" , its because I only had three left & all my testing was done with five shot strings & wanted all testing to be the same .I will add them to my next testing . Just for those who don't know what barrels are on these rifles , 16" & 20" are both Krieger Criterion HB's 1-10 twist, rifle length gas systems. I also found it odd that two different powders in two different barrels , produced close to the same ES & SD . Edited February 24, 2014 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted February 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I ordered some ( 250. ct ) Nosler 175 gr. match bullets today , see how the work when they get here . I'm loading some more test ammo & have the brass prepped & loadings marked for which barrel, to see if I can make some work better & will wait to test after the 175's get here ,I have brass ready to put them in. I'm also loading some with Federal primers , besides the WW & CCI's . If I get back to Gander mountain , they had some Remington primers by the 100 & may pick some up to test also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 This is great info! I'll be testing loads myself come spring and am concentrating on IMR 4064 since my .30-06 Garand runs on it. Will be trying 42.0 to 45.0 behind a Hornady 150 FMJ. Looking for a "service" load and later with SGK 165 HPBT bullets (again to coincide with the Garand). Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 From what I have read heavier bullets than 150 gr. might damage operating rod on Garand.I bought the device from Shuster that needs to be adjusted for the heavier loads.i have not installed it.Then I found another that needs no adjustment but bleeds off excess pressures.Niether of these devices can be used for competion in "as issued" class.Let me know what you find out as I would also like to fire heavier rounds through my Garand.Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) I load for a couple of Browning BAR's with Hornady 150 gr. SST bullets , Fed. Primer & 49 gr. of IMR 4064 , but those are not M1's & I will have to look at my Chrono. data for avg. Velocity, but its not a hot load . You should not have a problem with heavier bullets in a Garand , just have to load them to a safe pressure for the M1's action . I used to reload for my Garand, when I used to hunt with it twenty years ago. Side mount scope & all . My 175 gr. bullets will be here tomorrow & also I ordered another Neck Bushing for my Redding type S full length sizing die & will be using it to compare with my Small base die , that I have been using for a long,long time . Both with the 175's & the two 168 gr. loads that I have for the two rifles. I have seen improvements by using a full length sizer die with my 5.56 in my 24 " match barreled AR. Showing my reloading age…….. Edited February 26, 2014 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Got the 175's today & there really isn't much of a size difference . My neck bushing is here also & will be using the Redding type S bushing die, full length sizer to size the brass I have ready to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted February 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Well my big $$ Pact scale would not calibrate today , I had problems with it yesterday, but got it to work , now I have to send it back , so all testing has stopped until it gets back . I have other scales , including another digital , but want to keep testing as consistent as possible. I did load some with 168 SMK 's yesterday but no 175's yet. Damn ! :bat: Edited February 27, 2014 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I'm going to use my back up Digital scale .I can't wait for Pact to return my scale , I have testing to do . Any way , when i first got the Pact scale ,my back up was close to the same readings & I used it for years ,before I got the new Pact. Loaded some 175's with 38.5 of WC 846 to start with & have brass in the tumbler , for more 175 gr, bullet test loads . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Got some time to get to the range today , conditions were, gusting winds , 78 deg. & rain .I had some Chronograph problems , so the data I want is not complete. Came down to a weak battery, I shot a string after checking all else & it worked fine . Seems like this Chrono goes through a battery every time I use it . Most of what was shot was flu length sized with a Redding " S " type bushing full length sizing die , using a 0.336" bushing.Had problems with my DPMS mag ( go figure ) it would not hold back after last round in both rifles & various loads , so went back to the Gen III PMag & no other function problems after that. No high pressure signs on any brass , with any load I shot . Both rifles seem to like the Nosler Match 175's , even with the high gusting winds , both rifles had some good groups . With the wind I didn't pay all that attention to how well they did ,but was impressed with this bullet right away. I know all the long range shooters probably knew this bullet shoots well , but I'm new at the long range & heavy bullets. (LC Brass once fired , all COL were 2.799" ) BBL. # Bullet Powder / Charge Avg. Vel. ES SD Primer 16" #9 175 NM. WC846 / 38.0gr. 2241 109 39 CCI 16" # 10 175 NM. WC846 / 38.5gr. 2228 79 28 CCI 16" # 11 175 NM IMR4064/39.0 gr. 2234 91 32 CCI 16" # 12 175 NM IMR 4064/39.5 gr. 2289 71 25 CCI 16" # 13 175 NM IMR 4064/ 40.0 gr. 2328 24 8 CCI 20" # 14 175 NM WC 846/ 38.0 gr. 2330 181 59 CCI 20" # 15 175 NM WC 846/ 38.5 gr. 2398 75 31 CCI 20" # 16 175 NM IMR 4064/39.0 gr. 2370 82 27 CCI 20" # 17 175 NM IMR 4064/ 39.5 gr. 2396 23 9 CCI 20" # 18 175 NM IMR 4064/ 40.0 gr. NO DATA CCI 20 "(RCBS,SB size die) #19- 168 SMK IMR 4064/ 42.5 gr. NO DATA FED 20" ( RCBS,SB size die)# 20 168 SMK IMR 4064/42.5 gr. 2632 36 12 WW The no Data of course is when I had a weak battery & changed it , then got data for WW primed 168 SMK's & just got my Chrono put away & the sky opened up . I had seven more test loads for both rifles ,but the Chrono not cooperating & the impending rain kinda put them off. 98 I edited the other post & added the 20" bbl. , 42.5 gr 4064 ,with WW primer Edited November 27, 2014 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) 98 I edited the other post & added the 20" bbl. , 42.5 gr 4064 ,with WW primer Aaaaand, I see something interesting, again! <thumbsup> # 3 - 16" bbl.- 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2476 fps 46 fps 15 fps CCI # 6 - 20 " bbl. 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2606 fps 19 fps 7 fps CCI # 7 - 20" bbl. 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2632 fps 36 fps 12 fps WW #3 and #7 - slightly lower numbers from the 20" barrel... 20~25% less from the 20"? But that #7 load was using the WW primers? Previously, the CCI primers beat the WW primers by about 50%? #6 and #7 - identical loads from the 20", only primers as the difference - and the numbers for the CCI primers are almost half again. Gotta be the age of the WW primers - but, there's a definite difference between the 16" and 20" barrels there, too, when you look at #3 and #6 loads. Makes me want to pick up new WW primers and load up some rounds/data to see if there's a real difference, when you rule out the age of the primers. That's some damn good stuff, ss! <thumbsup> Edited March 13, 2014 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Good data! Following with interest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I numbered the test loads above for better reference . The WW primers being old , may or may not be a reason for different pressures /results or it could also be that some primers work better with certain powders/Calibers & even bullets & or there manufacturers. I started this for a barrel comparison & it has now turned into more . I have always tried to set my loadings for the best consistent shooting . With the addition of a Chronograph , my reloading hasn't changed , but seeing what goes on as fas as what components work & what doesn't work, it has been an eye opener . You can always see what your reloads do on the target & since with out a Chrono to see whats really going on with the bullet out of the barrel , which has a direct effect on how the loading or you yourself shoot . Think of all those flyers you say are the shooters fault & most probably are , but now with all this Chrono testing , I can see that the combo of components & charge weight of powder , have an effect that can produce a flyer , even though your sighting & all else are correct for a good shot . I think by looking at the last data , I can get similar results ,( as far as constancy of reloaded ammo ) with both barrels using one load , I didn't think that was possible before these tests. The load of 40 gr. IMR 4064 looks like it will work for both rifles & since the 20" had no data on that load I have to do it again. We have to also remember that I'm using my back up scale while my more precise Pact scale is being repaired, so no idea if that has any thing to do with it . I'm out of 168 SMK's, so the other seven test loadings are all 168 SMK's with changes in powder weights from the first tests , tweaking to see if I can alter the results . I have some 168 Hornady match I can use until I get some more SMK's for testing , but I have narrowed the load data to two for the 175's & two for the 168 SMKs for both rifles. Look at the loads # 13 & 17 , with just a 0.5 gr. ( 40.0 gr. )change in load the 16", Velocity is only 68 fps less than the 39.5 gr. load for the 20". I found that strange . I know I can boost the Velocity up in both barrels , but with the ES& SD being what they are & if I can reproduce them consistently , they may be the loading for the 175 gr. Nosler Match bullets . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted June 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) More test loads with the 175's , trying to get something that will group better . I shot @ 100 range today because I needed load data from the Chrono . I at least got some decent groups , although I know the 20" can cut its groups in half with 168 gr. bullets , but some promising groups for a change out of both Barrels . Condition - no wind , about 80 deg. @ 0830 , 84 % humidity & no bugs , which was pleasant I did forget to dial down my scopes from 200 yard settings the first shot & the first two shots out of the 20" bbl. , you would think i would have learned from adj. the 16" . I also did something different & that was to shoot all test loads from each rifle in the same sitting . I was changing rifles out with each test load . All primers used were 20+ year old CCI 's ( Unless noted ) ( I'm almost out of all my older primers , its what you get when you buy them in 10K lots ) I have newer ones to play with also . I also got my Pact scale back so all were weighed with it . All brass was LC , unless noted . Targets attached 16" BBL. 175 gr. Nosler Match bullets. COL 2.796 " # 1 - 39.5 gr. IMR 4895 ( on Noslers load data , the most accurate ) ( Annealed FC brass & crimped with Lee Factory crimp die ) Avg. Vel.- 2269 fps ES- 22fps SD- 8 fps # 2- 38.5 WC 846 Avg. Vel.- 2214 fps ES- 53 fps SD - 19 fps # 3- 42 gr. IMR 4064 ( newer CCI primers ) Avg. Vel.- 2466 fps ES - 26 fps SD - 11 fps # 4 - 40 gr. WC 846 Avg. Vel. - 2327 fps ES - 32 fps SD - 12 fps 20 " BBL. 175 gr. Nosler Match bullets , COL 2.796 " # 1- 39.5 gr. IMR 4895 ( again this loading in the Nosler data was there most accurate )( Annealed FC case , Lee Factory crimp die ) ( only four shots in group, all I had left to use ) Avg. Vel. -2392 fps. ES - 69 fps SD - 28 fps # 2 - 40 gr. WC 846 ( there are five shots in that group ) Avg. Vel. - 2446 fps ES - 43 fps SD - 16 fps # 3 - 42 gr. IMR 4064 ( newer CCI Primers ) Avg. Vel. - 2573 fps ES - 17 fps SD - 7 fps # 4 - 40 gr. IMR 4895 ( WW brass , annealed & crimped with a Lee factory crimp die ) Avg. Vel. - 2353 fps ES - 44 fps SD - 15 fps. Edited June 5, 2014 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted June 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 At least I have found loadings for the two barrels with the 175 gr. bullets . I think the WC 846 kinda stands out in both barrels , but the IMR 4895 on the # 1 target of the 20", I think , would have been great if I had put the scope back to my 100yd zero . My target was 2400 fps with the 175's , for longer range & I see that may not bee where I need to go with this bullet . Hard to say since I no longer will be going out too far with these rifles , I'll leave that up to you 'all that have long ranges out there in the Deserts , so I think there are a couple of the loads I made that will work pretty well for these barrels & at least now , I can make some loads up I know shoot pretty well & will try them next week @ 200 yards. & see how they work . I know if these were shot from a Lead Sled , they would be much better , but I like want to keep the human factor in the equation , just the way I do it . I believe the Annealing worked out pretty well , nothing scientific , but to me they seemed to work out well. I know the bullet seating felt pressure was consistent , compared to the un-Annealed brass , so I will be doing it to all my brass after a couple of re-loadings . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 BTW, has anyone here tried IMR4320 ? I did a test load and the rounds were off by 2mils left and 2 mils down versus identical projectile loads with IMR4064 or Varget. Not impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted June 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 This was my first testing with 4895 & only because it was in the Nosler load data & it was in stock @ Gander,. Have not tried 4320, but its hard to compare different powders , they all have a sweet spot or two in loadings , with different bullets & primers also . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I really gotta get a chrono.... Any experience with this? http://www.midwayusa.com/product/628777/magnetospeed-v3-ballistic-chronograph?cm_vc=ProductFinding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted June 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 I'm not sure how that Chrono handles it ,but I have to have my screens about 10' away from the muzzle blast or I get funny readings . They must control the blast some way so it won't interfere with the readings . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted July 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) On February 20, 2014 at 3:11 PM, survivalshop said: # 3 - 16" bbl.- 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2476 fps 46 fps 15 fps CCI # 4 - 16 " bbl.- 43.5 gr. IMR 4064 2576 fps 48 fps 18 fps WW # 6 - 20 " bbl. 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2606 fps 19 fps 7 fps CCI # 7 - 20" bbl. 42.5 gr. IMR 4064 2632 fps 36 fps 12 fps WW # 8 - 20 " bbl. 43.5 gr. IMR 4064 2701 fps 39 fps 16 fps WW These are for 168 SMK , I have some 175's around here some where , if not I will get them from my loading/Chrono records . Edited July 18, 2016 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikedaddyH Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 That's for the data to back up my load of 168gr SMK , IMR 4064 @ 43.5gr . what primer ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted July 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) This whole thread showed up & I know why , I put it down as a quote , but wanted to cut & paste it one the 4064 thread , like wtf . i mostly used CCI 200, but have tested Fed 210 . & 20 year old WW 120 primers for 98 , if thats what you are looking for . 175's are above , there's a lot of data in this old thread . Edited July 18, 2016 by survivalshop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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