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bfoosh006

FYI... PSA using 2 different buffer system lengths

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For those of you guys not following my other threads... and to cut to the chase...

 

Soooo.... I bought another complete PA10 lower.... is has a longer carbine buffer tube, a regular AR15 length buffer, and a longer buffer spring then my first PA10 lower. I haven't measured them yet... but is sure looks like a Armalite .308 length buffer system.

So... prior to any purchasing of buffer parts, I strongly suggest you post photos of what actually came with your rifle.

The "new" longer length buffer tube is marked "PA10" with the PSA "Logo" as well ... the buffer is AR15 length ( no markings ) as hand compared to a spare AR15 carbine buffer I have laying around.

Here are some side by side photos for comparison...the "New" sized buffer system is on the left.

The older "DPMS" style buffer systems is on the right.

 

I am now wondering how many times the different ones have been used... and how many times it may have caused mayhem and confusion.... even through this thread.

 

 

IMG_2796.JPG

IMG_2797.JPG

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Man, I've been all over this since November, from the Fall Shoot.  PSA is fucking this up bad.  Here's some recent info:

To complicate things even further, it looks like they did an interim switch to the (too long, internal depth) almost-AR-10 Carbine style, and were still shipping the DPMS-based LR buffers...  Long tube + short buffer = BCGs crashing into the ears on lower receivers... Awesome, PSA. Great work, guys.  :thumbup:

So far, based on two recorded accounts, and one I personally measured, those new-ish carbine receiver extensions are between 7 7/8" internal depth and 8"internal depth - both TOO LONG for the Armalite-based parts.  Correct internal depth to run those parts should be 7 5/8".  PSA doesn't know what the hell they're doing with the buffer springs, either...

My $0.02, based on what I saw, and what's been reported here...

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That new buffer they're shipping is fucked, too - for a 308AR Carbine recoil system, it should be H3-weighted, minimum.  Those buffers they are shipping are light.  H at best, and unmarked means "standard" AR-15 carbine buffer weight...

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I will weigh the "New" buffer and measure the tubes depth. I completely agree with the H3 minimum.

I will also check the potential over travel with the BCG in the "New" tube... ( the over travel part that breaks bolt releases )

I  am really beginning to think PSA is not building their sold product.... seriously... I suspect it is just like their parts supply chain... MANY different companies.
I have so much more first hand contact with PSA CS that I haven't shared yet... mostly because it isn't polite.

I have posted my comment from here in another webpages industry forum, on PSA's sub forum webpage. 



There are just to many hands in the PSA  pot for anything to go right. ..And PSA can't possibly be the only hands.

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And I meant to add, in context to the "who makes the PSA product" comments.... IMHO, if someone else is making assembling the uppers / rifles... that would also help explain the odd / never quite makes sense shipping times for various uppers and such.

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Oops ... edit to add... I have never been able to speak with anyone in the Assembly Dept / Gunsmithing area... ever ... almost like they aren't in the same general property.

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Specific questions require a few days to receive a response from the assemble folks, and even then it typically is completely wrong.

Even the CS answers are "odd" ... Answers like "we don't show that in our cataloged system / for sale system"... The armorer's are not here... That part doesn't exist...

I went through that while looking for a missing part on a complete PSA upper, a part that came on numerous other PSA uppers set up from them with the same parts.

Just sayin'

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The only contact I can make after a lot of searching on the internet is the alleged Customer Service Dept. The same alleged cs answered an email that with some white noise reply,  my reply to them ( not so white noise) was replyed with cs was the only point of contact. I sent an information inquiry to them before Christmas and have gotten no reply yet.

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Like I posted in the intro section my upper came complete and my lower I found at a retailer. They had been carrying it for a while.  The receiver extension on it is marked PA-1 and is 7 7/8 but now has three quarters to bring it to 7 5/8. The buffer is marked "H".

How did you get past cs?

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CS Manager / Supervisor. ...Lol, even then you NEED to follow up.

For various reasons.

IE ... if you don't get a contact e-mail from the supervisor... you may not have spoken to a Supervisor.... so be sure to get an e-mail address.

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Here are the measured weights and lengths between the "New" and "Older" versions.

Again, remember these parts do not interchange... unless you the complete buffer system ( DPMS v. Armalite )

New / Armalite / Longer.......................... Older / DPMS / Shorter

Supplied OEM PSA buffer ............ ( Both are way to light IMHO, they should be min. 5.4oz )

.....3.8oz / OAL 3.260"...................................3.8oz / OAL 2.5"

Supplied OEM PSA Buffer Tube......

.....5.0oz / OAL 7 7/8" ..................................5.0oz / OAL 7 1/4"

Supplied OEM PSA Buffer Spring.....

......1.5oz / OAL 11 3/8" / 29coils..................1.5oz / OAL 10 5/8" / 28coils

Difference between the two, in the fully compressed spring / buffer / BCG bottomed out in the buffer tubes using the supplied parts.... the "New" Buffer system is 3/32 longer and will not compress as short as the old one.... so if you are having Bolt catch issues... this is possibly why.

The depth of the "New" buffer tube is 7 11/16"

Again the "New" buffer system length is a better choice IMHO , allowing for more common parts and a heavier buffer weight....

However.... changing mid-stream is bound to confuse the subject.

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This is what happens when you don't have in house R and D and Product Development. I am guessing that they switched suppliers on the buffer tubes and buffers and someone "assumed" old and new suppliers were the same spec. The company manufacturing them might well have gone out and bought an Armalite and copied the buffer system without realizing DPMS and Armalite and PSA were different. Such schlock things do happen. As attractive as the prices, as long as they are "proprietary" and depending on other manufacturers, I am staying away.

Edited by Sisco

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15 minutes ago, Sisco said:

, I am staying away

They keep offering them cheap and I might jump in, these gentlemen seem to have done most of the leg work required to get them running now!

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1 minute ago, jtallen83 said:

They keep offering them cheap and I might jump in, these gentlemen seem to have done most of the leg work required to get them running now!

Having proprietary parts and multiple suppliers of them is difficult unless you have a well coordinated product development team who is in constant contact with all their suppliers. it sounds like they are getting different spec parts from different people and trying to make it work. Not a good situation. I would let it shake out a while at least.

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4 hours ago, Sisco said:

Having proprietary parts and multiple suppliers of them is difficult unless you have a well coordinated product development team who is in constant contact with all their suppliers. it sounds like they are getting different spec parts from different people and trying to make it work. Not a good situation. I would let it shake out a while at least.

IMHO, PSA counts on no one noticing the changes. Even the HP Bolt and small diameter FP has been quietly handled.... and quite effectively.

I will still buy from them... but , wow... talk about shooting from the hip.

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One question. If you buy a complete PA10 lower, and match it up with any PA10 upper in any caliber, will it work? Seems to me that it should. I think where problems arise is when people try building from scratch using PSA parts. It's more difficult to match up the parts that will work together. Or, am I wrong in that assessment?

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i wont gamble on pa10.. i have several ar15 variants from them that work great. 

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     You get what you pay for in almost anything . With the AR 15 types , they are using MilSpec components , pretty easy to get them to work properly. It seems they are getting or having made to their spec's , Proprietary components , we don't know what they use for the Receiver's dimensions for the machining of them & that can make any normal LR 308 /AR 10 type components to have issues trying to work with them .

     It seems to be a crap shoot on what you get , we do have some working just fine .  R&D is the key to any production Firearm  , for non Gunsmith assemblers , to build these Rifles . It could also be they are in over their head at this time & cant keep up with demand , cutting corners with suppliers or just sloppy Quality Control .

  Its not just PA , I just read on the M14 forum where some are having issues with a after market builder of M14/M1A 's & they were bringing up QA seems non existent with this Manufacturer ( not SA ) , so it just may be demand & lack of resources ( R&D, personal  training , etc ) & the demand for these type Rifles may be contributing to these issues .

  

  

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On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:54 AM, mley1 said:

One question. If you buy a complete PA10 lower, and match it up with any PA10 upper in any caliber, will it work? Seems to me that it should. I think where problems arise is when people try building from scratch using PSA parts. It's more difficult to match up the parts that will work together. Or, am I wrong in that assessment?

I think its a crap shoot......like already said the buffer spring and all that is crazy mixed up     and that's where the pew pew or no pew pew happens        Wash

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14 hours ago, washguy said:

I think its a crap shoot......like already said the buffer spring and all that is crazy mixed up     and that's where the pew pew or no pew pew happens        Wash

Yes, I agree if you buy one of the rifle kits without the lower, and then try to integrate parts not designed to work together. However, it sure looks like if you were to buy a complete lower, and match it to an upper, it should work fine. Where I see folks having trouble is trying to match up parts when they build from scratch.  With that said, I did have to tune my rig a bit. With regard to the buffer, spring and tube, I had to add a quarter behind the spring to keep the bcg from hitting the re. No big deal if you know what to look for. Plus, I had to install an adjustable gas block on the upper due to it being over gassed. Again, no big deal if you know what to do.

I don't know. It just seems to me that if you have a complete lower, with parts designed to work together in that lower, it should work just fine when mated up to an upper. If I have to tweak it a little I'm ok with that. Where I'd be upset is if I got a complete lower, and the parts weren't designed to work together and the rifle was non functioning, and I couldn't get it to run. I may be in the minority with that feeling though. I don't know.

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I have bought 4- pa 10’s from PSA. Yes their buffer system is odd. I changed out the buffer spring on most & went with a heavier buffer. No problem. For $480 delivered for a complete 308 i cannot complain. $50-$60 more & I have a great rifle. I of course change out the gas block for an adjustable ($40 at lj’s) run a heavy AR15 buffer then change out the spring to a flat wire. I also changed out the gas tube. They use ar15 gas tubes which are 1/4” shorter. I also changed out the delta for a free float rail. My friend uses his the way it came from factory & it works fine. Mine however have lighter recoil from the changes that have been made. (Also I believe i could get one to work as is from psa but i want lighter recoil therefor the mods)

Edited by Soliddriller

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2 hours ago, mley1 said:

Yes, I agree if you buy one of the rifle kits without the lower, and then try to integrate parts not designed to work together. However, it sure looks like if you were to buy a complete lower, and match it to an upper, it should work fine. Where I see folks having trouble is trying to match up parts when they build from scratch.  With that said, I did have to tune my rig a bit. With regard to the buffer, spring and tube, I had to add a quarter behind the spring to keep the bcg from hitting the re. No big deal if you know what to look for. Plus, I had to install an adjustable gas block on the upper due to it being over gassed. Again, no big deal if you know what to do.

I don't know. It just seems to me that if you have a complete lower, with parts designed to work together in that lower, it should work just fine when mated up to an upper. If I have to tweak it a little I'm ok with that. Where I'd be upset is if I got a complete lower, and the parts weren't designed to work together and the rifle was non functioning, and I couldn't get it to run. I may be in the minority with that feeling though. I don't know.

I’ve also bought a psa lower then a psa upper & they match up. I recommend buying PA 10’s. Their price point Is attractive ($480-$500 wow).  Now will It function for you right out of the box? I don’t know. But i do know for a little extra $ you can get a decent 308 for total $600?? That beats anyone anywhere (If your willing to work with it)

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Way to go Driller !  you have 4 that you got running fine ...kudos to you .....you have a great handle on their weird buffer system

Good work!       :thumbup:      Wash

Edited by washguy

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On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 10:58 PM, 98Z5V said:

Man, I've been all over this since November, from the Fall Shoot.  PSA is fucking this up bad.  Here's some recent info:

To complicate things even further, it looks like they did an interim switch to the (too long, internal depth) almost-AR-10 Carbine style, and were still shipping the DPMS-based LR buffers...  Long tube + short buffer = BCGs crashing into the ears on lower receivers... Awesome, PSA. Great work, guys.  :thumbup:

So far, based on two recorded accounts, and one I personally measured, those new-ish carbine receiver extensions are between 7 7/8" internal depth and 8"internal depth - both TOO LONG for the Armalite-based parts.  Correct internal depth to run those parts should be 7 5/8".  PSA doesn't know what the hell they're doing with the buffer springs, either...

My $0.02, based on what I saw, and what's been reported here...

I have to say.... I never even considered looking for this parts change.
I mean no one does this... except PSA. ..... as others have said... PSA clearly has no in house R&D, and just buys stuff kind of higgledy- pigglyed.

Again, where are PSA armorers ?

 

Edited by bfoosh006

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  One also has to remember that what you see & hear on these Forums is when shooters have issues with a Firearm & not too much on all the ones that work .

   That being said , the fact that any Manufacturer that offers a Firearm for 1/3 of what any other factory Firearms are selling for , to me, is cutting corners somewhere & that in itself turns me off . 

   Not that I don't like inexpensive Firearms or that they are not up to par with the others , but it should make a buyer pause & think about it . 

  Feel free to flame me , all you PSA 308AR owners :lmao:

Edited by survivalshop

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