98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: You register your car, the state gives you the privilege of driving by issuing a licence. These are both routinely revoked by states for various infractions. Now you want me to get a licence for my gun so the state can make up violations to take it from me. That is exactly how gun control has historically been enacted. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. This is exactly how they took the guns away. They routinely take away people's right to vote. Yours they have not been able to take so they water it down with dead people and illegals. When blacks were given the right to vote those in power rapidly found ways to take that right away, poll tax anyone? Even to this day there are places in this country where their votes are suppressed. #1. They don't take away your driver's license if you don't break the law. True or not? I've never had my driver's license taken away... #2. They can't take away your right to vote unless you're a convicted Felon. Not a convicted "misdemeanor" guy, or a traffic-ticket guy... What's the theme on what I've stated? Breaking the law... Furthermore, this would be a FEDERAL license. You have a FEDERAL license for your suppressors. What state law enforcement agency can come to you and take away your suppressor?... Edited April 28, 2018 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 Greg has a FEDERAL license for his SBRs, in Mass. Ron has a FEDERAL license for his SBRs, in MD. What state entity in either of those states can take their equipment from them?... The short answer is "none," as long as they don't break the law... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: #1. They don't take away your driver's license if you don't break the law. True or not? I've never had my driver's license taken away... #2. They can't take away your right to vote unless you're a convicted Felon. Not a convicted "misdemeanor" guy, or a traffic-ticket guy... What's the theme on what I've stated? Breaking the law... They will simply make laws so untenable that we will all be violators. That is how it works historically. It would be nice to think America can avoid the pitfalls of previous countries. It is dangerous to assume we will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
308kiwi Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 So here's a perspective from a system based on individual firearms licenses for citizens.... We don't have a 2nd Amendment to protect us in NZ, owning firearms here is considered a privilege rather than a right although you can argue that the definition of privilege extends to it being a right, but that's not what I'm here posting about. What I can tell you is the pro's and con's of a system based on individuals having a 'firearms license' because that's exactly what we have had here for decades and it works pretty well. Obtaining a FAL, (FireArms License) here is a matter of applying to the police, they do a thorough background check on you, interview your referee's and visit your home to check that you have adequate security for storage of firearms, once that's all done you're issued your FAL, it lasts for ten years before needing renewal, (a simple process). So now you have your FAL, (std FAL covers all your bolt actions, pump actions and semi autos up to 7 round capacity), then you can apply for individual endorsements to go onto your FAL, (adding endorsements does require upgraded security for storage), a "B" endorsement allows you to buy handguns with a minimum barrel length of 4", a "C" endorsement allows you to buy anything full auto, belt feds etc and sub compact pistols, no 'tax stamps' or the like, I can buy a belt fed or an M16 or an Uzi same day if I so desire, a "D" endorsement allows you to deal in and manufacture firearms including full auto, a bit like your 'FFL', an "E" endorsement allows you to buy all your semi auto stuff, AR's etc etc with unlimited mag capacity. (all B, C and E firearms are recorded to your FAL and if you sell them the 'ownership' is recorded to the new owners FAL) That's a very basic run down, but what it pretty much means is I can go to any gun shop or buy any firearm from any other dealer or private citizen and have it sent to me direct, no farting around with having it shipped to a dealer, no questions asked, no extra background checks, I've already been vetted to hell and back and been deemed 'fit and proper', simple as that, for B, C and E sales all I need do is fill out the procurement forms that you can download online and e-mail to the local police and they 'rubber stamp' it, normally immediately or at worst the same/next day. So the con's are that the govt has all my info, ummm, so when did they not?, they already know everything about me through my tax info, my medical records, my drivers license, etc etc, they have a record of all my B, C and E firearms, do I care?, nope, is it a pathway to confiscation?, well it's been in place for decades here and we're still doing OK, although the tin foil milliners will have you believe otherwise. One other point, we don't have a State/Federal system here, it's one system that covers the entire country so is probably a little easier to implement than what it would be in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: They will simply make laws so untenable that we will all be violators. That is how it works historically. Point out those histrionics, as they specifically pertain to guns in the US... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmackc Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: There's already a federally mandated license to have suppressors, SBRs, SBSs, DDs, Full-Auto weapons, end everything else that's covered under the NFA... It's already there... We already have to do it, to obtain these items. You have to go through probably the most intensive background check in your life - unless you've been through the TS Clearance process - and none of those are being routinely confiscated, by and large... That's way different than a license for all semi automatic license just think how many million people own SEMIAUTOMATIC bb guns rimfire pistols shotguns center fire pistols,and rifles. We aren't just talking ARs AKs and ugly black assault rifles. Sounds like an almost unconditional surrender to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, mrmackc said: That's way different than a license for all semi automatic license just think how many million people own SEMIAUTOMATIC bb guns ... You lost me right there, when you used BB guns as an argument against this. Those things arean't even regulated, in any way. I can buy a full-auto CO2-powered BB gun online, right now. Next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmackc Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 The article says all semiautomatic, that is my point, the way anti gun people write laws often covers bb guns maybe even paint ball. Hell a school licked a grade schooler out because his sandwich was shaped like a pistol. Maybe a double action revolver would be classified as a SEMIAUTOMATIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, 98Z5V said: Point out those histrionics, as they specifically pertain to guns in the US... It hasn't happen here, at least since before the revolution....... unless you count all the people that had to hand over their SBR's, silencers, and full autos because they couldn't afford the $200 tax stamp when the NFA was enacted.........cause many did and that was exactly what the government had planned when setting the $200 amount. They knew that it would remove a very large number of these items from circulation because most could never afford it during the depression. Again I say, 16 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: It would be nice to think America can avoid the pitfalls of previous countries. It is dangerous to assume we will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: You lost me right there, when you used BB guns as an argument against this. Those things arean't even regulated, in any way. I can buy a full-auto CO2-powered BB gun online, right now. Next. They are not regulated federally, many cities have regulations on their use. If we do not anticipate the abuse of laws and citizens by government then it will for sure happen. It is the way of the Hegelian dialectic, an inevitable fact of humankind's history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just let me know when they come knocking on your door, telling you that you have to give up your NFA items. I'm sure we'l hear from Greg and Ron at the same time, about NFA items. Of course, we won't have to read about it here - the revolution will be fully underway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: They are not regulated federally, many cities have regulations on their use. That's not even part of this discussion then - we're not even close to discussing any city regulations in this topic. EDIT - in which, would be trounced by this Federal license... Edited April 28, 2018 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, 98Z5V said: That's not even part of this discussion then - we're not even close to discussing any city regulations in this topic. But we are giving up part of a 2A right for the sake of a state regulation, that has been part of this discussion, correct? Not much difference where I sit. The second was intended for all of us as a whole, it was carved out as an Americans right to bear arms and put there with the intention that the federal government was to safeguard that right for ALL citizens, they have abdicated that duty. My Great Grandfather turned in his BAR, a great great Uncle turned in his Thompson, did government thugs raid their home and take them, no, but they knew they would be felons if they didn't give them up and that would have made life even tougher for them and their families, the end result was the same, no more full auto for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, jtallen83 said: But we are giving up part of a 2A right for the sake of a state regulation, that has been part of this discussion, correct? What are we giving up, here? What are we losing in this proposal? What do we give away, and lose forever by doing this?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmackc Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Come on 98 you gotta be playing the devils advocate, or you been lobotomy-sized ! Actually 98, I need to retract my last posting, after all it isn't fair to be nasty to someone just because they have an opinion different than mine. Edited April 28, 2018 by mrmackc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: What are we giving up, here? What are we losing in this proposal? What do we give away, and lose forever by doing this?... Autonomy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, 98Z5V said: What are we giving up, here? What are we losing in this proposal? What do we give away, and lose forever by doing this?... We open ourselves up to future abuse. Big picture, long game, look at history. I would just as soon take a firm stand now than leave this issue for my children and grandchildren to deal with. Call me a hardliner, I don't care, I say not one more inch, NOT ONE! We have been giving inches and feet since before any of us were born but yet here we are today, why would one more inch solve the problem? Study the mechanics of how these men implemented gun control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, jtallen83 said: We open ourselves up to future abuse. That's paranoia. When, in recent times, has anyone come after the "list of suppressor owners, SBR and SBS owners, etc." We, as a country, decide on who can abuse this, federally. Federally, no one has come after these items yet, for law abiding citizens, and it's been going on since 1934. When they DO decide to come after those people, "on that list since 1934," that would begin the next revolution, and they already know that. Those people "on that list" are the most law-abiding of the law-abiding. Give me a heads up when they come for you. And the MA and MD guys referenced. Lemme know. That means they're coming for me, too, the "regular guy." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: That's paranoia. When, in recent times, has anyone come after the "list of suppressor owners, SBR and SBS owners, etc." Call me paranoid, a history buff, or maybe I have some german jew blood in me, they bring me to the same conclusion. I urge you to read this very well researched book, it is an interesting read. Here is a review on it from an EU source; https://mises.org/library/gun-control-nazi-germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 That happened about the same time as the NFA, brother. How has that confiscation worked out here, in the USA, since 1934? That list was created, here, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 I haven't exactly noticed that we've collectively gained from the NFA, GCA, or AWB. My problem with this idea is that it seems to alter the status quo in favor of law abiding gun owners, when in fact it does nothing but hand control over ownership to a Federal entity. I've already had to deal with the way Fed handles NFA and that's nightmarish and has only gotten worse since. If there weren't any other reasons, I wouldn't want this simply because of incompetence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: That happened about the same time as the NFA, brother. How has that confiscation worked out here, in the USA, since 1934? That list was created, here, then. The Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Mongols, and many many more empires thought themselves the exception. What are they now? Schitholes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 17 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: The Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Mongols, and many many more empires thought themselves the exception. What are they now? Schitholes! That was way before 1934, and that was not in the US, with the Constitution backing them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 not reading the whole thread i noticed comment of bb guns and city.. i will be prosicuted to the fullest extent of the law and loose all my guns if found guilty shootin a projectile in my yard in city limits.. not even fireworks on the 4th. just sayin .. i have to go back to the first page yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: That was way before 1934, and that was not in the US, with the Constitution backing them up. Those are facts, just not facts that I think guarantee nothing bad will come from gun control. Just IMHO, I do not trust authority of any type, I have seen the US government break laws, congress investigate and then say it didn't happen. They can do anything they damn well please. Just a matter of time before it goes to far and the Jefferson quote becomes a reality, again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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