Accurized AR Match, 24Jul21

[98Z5V]

10 minutes ago, Lane said:

Is the nasty smell a part of every ride?

We'll make SURE it is...  

[Lane]

Thanks. 

[BigNate]

On 7/24/2021 at 10:21 PM, 98Z5V said:

WOW!  The HEAVY TALENT was stacked DEEP this month, men!  Rob Leatham was a competitor/shooter.  And he finished 6th overall, in this field - there were alot of people this month that were ON THEIR GAME!!!  It was epic to even be a part of it.

Highlight of the day, no joke - not even kidding.  @BigNate is new here, and local to me, and he said he'd come out to check out the match.  He did.  He is AWESOME!  I signed up early this morning, around 0630-ish, and they were looking for "Squad-Mom" volunteers, and needed someone for Sqd 4 - I was there, and said, Yep!  I'll take it!  Meant I had to have all the range briefs, instructional changes, be on the blame-line for the timer and scoring device, etc.  During each stage I was busy, but still got to talk to @BigNate.  I'll just say that you fellas are gonna LIKE this guy...     Some of you might get to meet him this fall - but he doesn't have any idea what that means, because I didn't tell him shiit about that yet... 

So, Nate - welcome aboard.  You have no fathomly idea what you're in for... 

<@BigNate runs away in terror> 

 

Just kidding...   It was great to meet you guys - I'm looking forward to being out next month to embarrass myself.  🙂  

[BigNate]

As to the swing - I asked what the "maximum safe load" was on the one that they had - I didn't get an answer.  That 2X2 looks to be pretty heavy wall - it better be... LOL.   Pretty sure that I've got 4 chunks of 4X4 X 1/2" wall stuff that might hold me...    😛 

[BigNate]

Now a serious question...   For those shooting 5.56 - I've truly never bought / made match ammo in that caliber - but I'm thinking about putting something together for next month and am curious as to what rounds you guys are shooting (candidly - I'm curious as to whether anyone is shooting basic 62gr stuff - or is everyone shooting match stuff).   

Given that I have a pretty good lot of 62gr stuff - and I can buy 68gr match rounds for less than the price of components for match 7.62X51, I'm thinking about starting out with a pea-shooter instead of the AR-10. 

Thoughts? 

[shooterrex]

The long range targets need 75 gr projectiles for 5.56

https://www.theamericanmarksman.com/bullets-1st-7.62-m118lr-175-gr-125-ct.html

These are priced decent for long range ammo. The shoot well in my guns.

[JBMatt]

5 hours ago, BigNate said:

Now a serious question...   For those shooting 5.56 - I've truly never bought / made match ammo in that caliber - but I'm thinking about putting something together for next month and am curious as to what rounds you guys are shooting (candidly - I'm curious as to whether anyone is shooting basic 62gr stuff - or is everyone shooting match stuff).   

Given that I have a pretty good lot of 62gr stuff - and I can buy 68gr match rounds for less than the price of components for match 7.62X51, I'm thinking about starting out with a pea-shooter instead of the AR-10. 

Thoughts? 

SOME of these guys are getting away with using 55 gr in their 223's.  To give yourself the best chance I wouldn't load anything less than 75 gr.  I'm shooting 77 gr Sierra MK's and @98Z5V is running Hornady 75 gr BTHP's.  Dirt Bike Tommy was trying 69 gr and they were definitely running out of steam for everything over 500 yds.  Lots of drop, lots of low misses.  The heavier just carry better further out, more accurately.  I'm getting my 77 gr to run at 2770 fps.  If you're not running a 1:7 twist, there's a chance you might be stuck with a 69 gr.  I wouldn't advise going any less than that for this match.  I have a feeling these fukkers are gonna bust out a 700 yd target one of these days.  The long targets we have shot so far are: 510, 470, 425, 500, 640, 460, 485, 625, 630, 505, and 610.  We've never had a target under 200 and that lil sum beyotch was 3"!  Plus, @98Z5V favorite ones.  The sharks at 210!    The bulk of the close targets are 300+ yds.  The majority of these targets fall in the 300-500 range, so having a good projectile that can do the job is definitely a good idea.  At least in my opinion, you want to give yourself the best opportunity to succeed.

Edited July 26, 2021 by JBMatt

[Lonewolf McQuade]

What gr bullet would be best for 1:9?

Edited July 26, 2021 by Lonewolf McQuade

[JBMatt]

12 minutes ago, Lonewolf McQuade said:

What gr bullet would be best for 1:9?

Certainly a 55 gr, but I would assume possibly up to 62 gr with a long enough barrel, but I have never owned a 1:9.  I don't have any personal experience with that twist.  That falls under the expertise of @98Z5V to answer that question "somewhat" intelligently.  

Edited July 26, 2021 by JBMatt

[Lonewolf McQuade]

2 minutes ago, JBMatt said:

I would assume up to 62 gr with a long enough barrel, but I have never owned a 1:9.  That falls under the expertise of @98Z5V to answer that question "somewhat" intelligently.  

Thanks. Its a 20" barrel on my Mossberg AR15 I use groundhog hunting.  I've only used 55 & 62gr so far, 62gr seems to he the better of the 2 past 300 yards. Good enough to kill the groundhog out to 500-600 yards. I was thinking of trying a heavier bullet 

[JBMatt]

@Lonewolf McQuade If you're able to get decent accuracy with a 62 gr in your rig, there isn't any reason to at least try to get a 69er to work.  There's definitely a breaking point for stabilizing these things when they get heavy and long.  But like I said, I don't have any personal experience with 1:9 barrels.  Have you tried any Varmint bullets below 50 gr?  There's something to be said about the speed you get out of those lil ones.

Edited July 27, 2021 by JBMatt

[BigNate]

1 hour ago, JBMatt said:

SOME of these guys are getting away with using 55 gr in their 223's.  To give yourself the best chance I wouldn't load anything less than 75 gr.  I'm shooting 77 gr Sierra MK's and @98Z5V is running Hornady 75 gr BTHP's.  Dirt Bike Tommy was trying 69 gr and they were definitely running out of steam for everything over 500 yds.  Lots of drop, lots of low misses.  The heavier just carry better further out, more accurately.  I'm getting my 77 gr to run at 2770 fps.  If you're not running a 1:7 twist, there's a chance you might be stuck with a 69 gr.  I wouldn't advise going any less than that for this match.  I have a feeling these fukkers are gonna bust out a 700 yd target one of these days.  The long targets we have shot so far are: 510, 470, 425, 500, 640, 460, 485, 625, 630, 505, and 610.  We've never had a target under 200 and that lil sum beyotch was 3"!  Plus, @98Z5V favorite ones.  The sharks at 210!    The bulk of the close targets are 300+ yds.  The majority of these targets fall in the 300-500 range, so having a good projectile that can do the job is definitely a good idea.  At least in my opinion, you want to give yourself the best opportunity to succeed.

Thanks a ton.  If I go small gun I've got a pretty basic PSA 223 Wylde upper (18" 1:7 stainless heavy barrel) that picked up as part of a bundle from a friend.  Pretty sure it has their "better than basic" BCG and has never had rounds through it.   Lower is pretty vanilla but with an SSA-E trigger.  I'll put some long skinny bullets through it in the next weekend or two and see how it goes. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by BigNate

[JBMatt]

2 minutes ago, BigNate said:

Thanks a ton.  If I go small gun I've got a pretty basic PSA 223 Wylde upper (18" 1:7 stainless heavy barrel) that picked up as part of a bundle from a friend.  Pretty sure it has their "better than basic" BCG and has never had rounds through it.   Lower is pretty vanilla but with an SSA-E trigger.  I'll put some long skinny bullets through it in the next weekend or two and see how it goes. 

I had that exact barrel and it shot REALLY well.  From what I've seen, PSA has Tool Craft make all their BCG's.  I actually just bought another one from them.  So no issue there, either.  (Just tell @98Z5V you have all Aero parts so he doesn't blow you up.  I use a lot of PSA stuff.  He doesn't fuk with me too bad. But he can't until he actually beats me. )  Having a decent piece of glass on top will be well worth your while as well.  One of my buddies that shot with us had a $100 Weaver and that was his biggest struggle the whole match.  Had a real small window of eye relief, like 3/4" and just cross hairs, no BDC, no hash marks.  If it wasn't for inferior glass, he would likely have done a ton better.  And there's no reason you can't run a 308 that you already have dialed in.  There's a class for that, with only a handful of guys running them.

In my opinion, from what I know, there's 4 things that you need to do well in this style of shooting.  Or any style of this shooting, for that matter.  Barrel, bullets/ammo, glass and trigger.  The rest is just fancy stuff.

[BigNate]

12 minutes ago, JBMatt said:

I had that exact barrel and it shot REALLY well.  From what I've seen, PSA has Tool Craft make all their BCG's.  I actually just bought another one from them.  So no issue there, either.  (Just tell @98Z5V you have all Aero parts so he doesn't blow you up.  I use a lot of PSA stuff.  He doesn't fuk with me too bad. But he can't until he actually beats me. )  Having a decent piece of glass on top will be well worth your while as well.  One of my buddies that shot with us had a $100 Weaver and that was his biggest struggle the whole match.  Had a real small window of eye relief, like 3/4" and just cross hairs, no BDC, no hash marks.  If it wasn't for inferior glass, he would likely have done a ton better.  And there's no reason you can't run a 308 that you already have dialed in.  There's a class for that, with only a handful of guys running them.

In my opinion, from what I know, there's 4 things that you need to do well in this style of shooting.  Or any style of this shooting, for that matter.  Barrel, bullets/ammo, glass and trigger.  The rest is just fancy stuff.

LOL...  Not sure if the lower is an Aero M4E1 - or something else... but I've got a little stack of bare M4E1 lowers stashed somewhere... might have to transfer parts into one of them to keep him from going apey on me.    I just picked up an Arken SH4 6-24... its not Nightforce or S&B or... but its better than the other stuff I've got.  I'm learning that part of the game right now.   I'm just getting the AR-10 sorted out (just bought it a month ago).  The primary reason for thinking about going 5.56 was the idea that I might be able to get away with shooting green-tip stuff as I ramp up - I don't have any supply of heavier match grade 5.56 stuff - and I've only got a couple hundred rounds of the match grade 7.62X51 168 gr stuff  - and replacing it is stupid spendy right now.    Anyway - I'll figure it out and be there with something... 🙂

[Lonewolf McQuade]

1 hour ago, JBMatt said:

Have you tried any Varmint bullets below 50 gr?  There's something to be said about the speed you get out of those lil ones.

I have not tried lighter since most shots are 200yds & beyond,  less havoc  with the wind

[JBMatt]

20 minutes ago, BigNate said:

LOL...  Not sure if the lower is an Aero M4E1 - or something else... but I've got a little stack of bare M4E1 lowers stashed somewhere... might have to transfer parts into one of them to keep him from going apey on me.    I just picked up an Arken SH4 6-24... its not Nightforce or S&B or... but its better than the other stuff I've got.  I'm learning that part of the game right now.   I'm just getting the AR-10 sorted out (just bought it a month ago).  The primary reason for thinking about going 5.56 was the idea that I might be able to get away with shooting green-tip stuff as I ramp up - I don't have any supply of heavier match grade 5.56 stuff - and I've only got a couple hundred rounds of the match grade 7.62X51 168 gr stuff  - and replacing it is stupid spendy right now.    Anyway - I'll figure it out and be there with something... 🙂

I guess you should use what you have, but I've never been able to get a 62 gr Green tip to group any better than a shotgun pattern.  Lol.

That scope should work exactly well for you.

Check these out:

https://www.armorally.com/shop/hornady-75-bthp-match-22-caliber/

Edited July 27, 2021 by JBMatt

[JBMatt]

22 minutes ago, Lonewolf McQuade said:

I have not tried lighter since most shots are 200yds & beyond,  less havoc  with the wind

Ah, yes.  Wind.  The great equalizer...

[98Z5V]

Aaaaah, lot's of good stuff going on in this thread!  I like it!

I won't bust anybody's balls over PSA AR15 stuff.  There's a pattern for that, and they tend to stick to it.  It's the .308AR stuff that they just can't seem to get right.

Tommy's 69ers weren't doing too well on that 640 target this month.  He had to put extra rounds out there and keep fighting it.  Those bastards go transonic around 700 yards, so they're running out of steam out there.  Anything in the 400~600 range, you'll have more drop - so more holdover - over the 75 and 77s. 

DO NOT BUY...   Hornady 75gr ELD-M projectiles.  They're great, but they're so damn long that you can't load them to magazine length (2.260" or less). 

Those 75s that Matt linked are perfect - and that's CHEAP for 500 of them.  Those ones with the cannelure are in stock, so just grab 500 and start with that.  The cannelure is in the perfect spot for seating them, too - seat them down in the case, to the cannelure, then crimp them.  Done.  Don't really even need to measure OAL.  Should bring them right at 2.250", loaded. 

Like Matt stated, I'm using the Hornady 75gr HPBT projectiles, in Lake City 5.56 brass, CCI 41 primers, and 24.2gr of RL-15 powder, seated to 2.250" OAL.  They're 2789fps out of that 18" gun. 

No Green Tip out there in that shoot.  No Green Tip on steel targets - it just tears them up.  No Green Tip on the steel we take out to the desert here.  Green Tip is mean as fuk on steel.  Save that stuff for barrier use, like windshields.  It'll also rip some cinderblocks RIGHT UP.  That's always fun to do/watch.

2 hours ago, JBMatt said:

He doesn't fuk with me too bad. But he can't until he actually beats me.

One of these days, mister, one of these days.  I'm gonna beat you at something.  When I do... 

Edited July 27, 2021 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, Lonewolf McQuade said:

What gr bullet would be best for 1:9?

You're gonna max out a 1:9" twist barrel at that 62gr.  As long as it's not Green Tip.  I've got a long story on that.  M16A1s were 1:9" twist.  M16A2s were 1:7" twist.  When the A2 dropped, a new ammo was developed with it, and that was M855/SS109 - Green Tip.  The two projects ran concurrent, and the twist rate was determined because that was the projectile selected.  Plus, greater accuracy with tracers, with 1:7" twist.  Tracer projectiles are long as fuk.  There's a Winchester 62gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw loaded ammo out there, and that will work okay through 1:9".  Border runs that stuff.  There's another 64gr LE duty ammo out there that's supposed to run well through 1:9", but I've never seen it in use, myself (seen a gun run it on a range).  Most of the time, you're gonna be stuck with a range of 42gr through 55gr.  55 past 600 yards just sucks, bad.  It has alot of drop at 400, and even more at 500.   Example:  If I run 55gr range ammo on the 450 yard target out here, through a BDC scope, I have to hold for 500 just to make hits on the steel...  That's significant, and it's running out of steam.

You can get a 55 running 3300fps.  Safely.  I've seen some of the lighter projectiles screaming at 3500fps.  If you're going that fast, they won't so much "buck the wind" - but they're hauling ass THROUGH that wind...   Less drop, moving that damn fast...

[98Z5V]

Just for notes, Max Effective Range (Point Target) for the M16A1 running M193 ammo (55gr, 3250fps) was 460 meters.  With the A2 running different rifling and the M855 62gr, that changed to 550 meters.  

No matter what you shoot, 69gr will run out of gas at 700 yards-ish.  75 and 77gr at 900 yards. 

It's possible to make hits beyond that.  We shot DirtBike Tommy's 16" LaRue (suppressed) and made hits on the 1k yard target.  I can't remember what ammo he was running, but it's possible.  Anything is possible.  An Accurate Gun is always an Accurate Gun.  Making shots at distance comes down to "what's in your Brain-Pan?". 

Edited July 27, 2021 by 98Z5V

[BigNate]

Thanks gents…

[98Z5V]

Good deal, Nate!

[edgecrusher]

77gr smk/23.8grVarget/LC brass/CCI #41.

 

Shot out of an 18” SPR rifle gas barrel I’m getting 10 shot groups around an inch. 

[JBMatt]

@BigNate I just put together 50 test loads with that Hornady 75 gr BTHP w/ cannelure you just ordered to put through my 16" Wilson Combat. CCI #41, annealed and trimmed Lake City Brass. Notice I made 10 of @98Z5V preferred load so that I can give them a fair shake in testing.  Trying 3 different powders.  At 2.250" OAL, the cannelure is perfect and crimps just like it's factory.  Looking for that magic 2750 fps and under 1 MOA without pressure signs.  I'll letcha know how they work out.

[JBMatt]

9 minutes ago, edgecrusher said:

77gr smk/23.8grVarget/LC brass/CCI #41.

 

Shot out of an 18” SPR rifle gas barrel I’m getting 10 shot groups around an inch. 

Yep, that's what I'm getting out of that same BA barrel. In testing I have multiple 5 shot groups at or under 3/4".  I use IMR 8208-XBR and CCI 450's and have single digit SD's.  Working really well.  Having trouble finding that powder and I'm down to 2 lbs.  I'll try this recipe if I need to.  Good to know there's another good one out there.  Anyone have a line on 8208 XBR?