.308 AR-based battle rifle?

[FaRKle!]

I was wondering if I could pick up the PredatAR with a heavier barrel. That seems like it would be a solid setup while staying within my weight limit.

That's what a PredatOBR is. PredatAR with OBR barrel.

 

 

 

Yeah, but I'd hate to spend double the money for a KAC when other companies have great customer service as well. :P

Knight's helped LMT develop the MWS. If you want great customer support and reliability but don't want to spend the $ for Knight's get an MWS, then have the barrel reprofiled, fluted, or dimpled. All the weight of the MWS is the huge frigging barrel.

[ardrummer292]

That's what a PredatOBR is. PredatAR with OBR barrel.

 

 

 

Knight's helped LMT develop the MWS. If you want great customer support and reliability but don't want to spend the $ for Knight's get an MWS, then have the barrel reprofiled, fluted, or dimpled. All the weight of the MWS is the huge frigging barrel.

 

I like the fact that the PredatAR doesn't have the weird breakdown feature. Less moving parts means less stuff to go wrong, right?

 

I've heard of the MWS choking on crappy mil-surplus ammo, which kinda puts me off a bit.

 

 

 

I hate to oversimplify the question here, but what will the LMT and Larue rifles do that an Armalite AR-10A A4 won't? Will they be more reliable with crap ammo after being broken in? Will they hold up better as a pry bar/blunt instrument? Can I expect these rifles to function after taking a spill into a clay-mud field with the dust cover open?

 

I feel that buying a beautiful $3k rifle, then feeding it a steady diet of garbage ammo and rough handling, may not be the rifle's intended use.

 

As a side note, I don't expect Glock reliability, just regular AR-15 reliability. My experience with ARs (both issued and personal) has shown me that they are VERY reliable; this is all coming from a guy that managed to destroy both an M240 and a M2HB in one range outing! I'm just looking for that great AR-15 dependability in a bigger package. :D

[survivalshop]

If you can destroy an M2 & 240 on the same day , I'm not sure they make a firearm worthy of your abilities . <laughs>

 

  Seriously though , I wouldn't use any of the steel cased ammo in any of my rifles ,but my AK. If you are looking for reliability from an AR308 , I personally would stay away from that crap ammo .

  There will be not much difference in functionality between the big $$$ rifles & an AR 10 , you really can't go wrong there . The big money rifles have some goodies & a name & the Larue's have some sniper rifles in use & have won some sniper competitions with them , if I remember correctly , so they will do the dirty work & LMT 's are great rifles ,but so are DPMS rifles, they make more of them than any other manufacturer.

  Tough choices for sure , it comes down to how much you want to spend & what you want to do with it .

 

[ardrummer292]

If you can destroy an M2 & 240 on the same day , I'm not sure they make a firearm worthy of your abilities . <laughs>

 

Yeah... the "Ma Deuce" broke a barrel extension, sending the barrel downrange. I overlubed the M240, making the receiver catch fire at about the same time I shot the chrome/Stellite/whatever lining out of the barrel. I also saw one of my buddies blow up a Mk44 minigun; for those familiar with the "Jesus clip," it broke and sent the flashhider downrange with all 6 barrels in tow. Oddly enough, one of the few guns I managed NOT to break (aside from my issued M4) was a salty old M60E4, which is still my favorite machine gun of all time. :D

 

Seriously though , I wouldn't use any of the steel cased ammo in any of my rifles ,but my AK. If you are looking for reliability from an AR308 , I personally would stay away from that crap ammo .

 

I would like to have the ability to run steel case. It definitely won't be my first choice, as I plan on having a healthy stockpile of US manufacture 7.62 NATO M80 ball on hand. That said, I get a little overzealous at the range sometimes, so having cheap blasting ammo would be nice. :)

[FaRKle!]

I like the fact that the PredatAR doesn't have the weird breakdown feature. Less moving parts means less stuff to go wrong, right?

MWS has a QCB system too, as does the accurate HK21 machine gun. I don't think you need to worry.

 

I've heard of the MWS choking on crappy mil-surplus ammo, which kinda puts me off a bit.

I feel that buying a beautiful $3k rifle, then feeding it a steady diet of garbage ammo and rough handling, may not be the rifle's intended use.

MWS choking on mil-surp ammo? Considering the fact that the UK and NZ MoD chose the MWS over the SCAR-17, HK417, and Knight's rifles I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Part of the requirement for those trials was that it had to shoot surplus de-linked M80 and L2A2 ball and hit a man-sized target at 800m.

[Sisco]

It is gonna boil down to what you want to spend. Any target models will probably be more picky on ammo. If you wouldn't mind proprietary magazines which I think you would, CDNN has incredible deals on Armalite "B" model rifles right now. The only 308 AR's I own are Armalites so I can't comment on the others. I handled the DPMS but liked the Armalite better, but that was before the new light weight DPMS model, which would be tempting. Set your budget and see what fits from the advice above.

[shibiwan]

Er...I've caught the FN-MAG (M240) on fire several times before but how did you kill that barrel! ..... and I suppose the threads of the barrel extension on the M2 must have broken otherwise the barrel wouldn't have flown out! How old was that M2? 1930s? Did you guys do the proper headspace and timing check before going hog wild on it?  <lmao>

 

Avoid the steel cased ammo. Looks like you have a ton of M80 ball so the 308 is the way to go. The question is how "over zealous" will you get with it. Construction wise, all the 308 AR's are built roughly the same way. Now, knowing your track record, would you like to break a $3000 Larue or a $1500 DPMS? Honestly I don't think either one breaks that easy....

 

(I just realized I said almost the same thing survivalshop said)

Edited April 7, 2014 by shibiwan

[ardrummer292]

MWS choking on mil-surp ammo? Considering the fact that the UK and NZ MoD chose the MWS over the SCAR-17, HK417, and Knight's rifles I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Part of the requirement for those trials was that it had to shoot surplus de-linked M80 and L2A2 ball and hit a man-sized target at 800m.

 

I read a couple training course AARs that talked about KAC, LMT, and Larue .308 ARs having issues running M80 ball at high round counts. That said, if those rifles are having issues, I've got to assume the more economical offerings would perform similarly. Since almost all of these rifles will be more accurate than I am in combat conditions, I guess I'm wondering if money buys reliability.

 

Here's the dilemma I'm trying to get over: higher cost = greater accuracy = tighter tolerances = lower reliability when Murphy shows up. Is one of these factors wrong?

 

 

 

Er...I've caught the FN-MAG (M240) on fire several times before but how did you kill that barrel! ..... and I suppose the threads of the barrel extension on the M2 must have broken otherwise the barrel wouldn't have flown out! How old was that M2? 1930s? Did you guys do the proper headspace and timing check before going hog wild on it?  <lmao>

 

Avoid the steel cased ammo. Looks like you have a ton of M80 ball so the 308 is the way to go. The question is how "over zealous" will you get with it. Construction wise, all the 308 AR's are built roughly the same way. Now, knowing your track record, would you like to break a $3000 Larue or a $1500 DPMS? Honestly I don't think either one breaks that easy....

 

(I just realized I said almost the same thing survivalshop said)

 

Yeah, we checked the headspace and timing before clearing it for use. No idea on date of manufacture. The barrel extension cracked right behind the threads and sent the barrel about 6 feet downrange. That wasn't nearly as scary as when one of my guys had a .50 round cook off on his groin protector after clearing a FTF. Lucky guy! :D

 

I don't have the 7.62 ball yet, but I plan on picking up at least 1000 rounds with the rifle. As far as me being overzealous... well, I have a propensity for mag dumps and plan to have at least 6 of the Magpul 25 rounders racked up in my chest rig. :D

 

I guess my concern is more along the lines of, "Which rifle could I keep in the fight longer?" Granted, the "fight" in question has a 99.99% probability of being a high round count training course, but I do tend to plan for the worst case scenario. :)

Edited April 7, 2014 by ardrummer292

[shibiwan]

I read a couple training course AARs that talked about KAC, LMT, and Larue .308 ARs having issues running M80 ball at high round counts. That said, if those rifles are having issues, I've got to assume the more economical offerings would perform similarly. Since almost all of these rifles will be more accurate than I am in combat conditions, I guess I'm wondering if money buys reliability.

 

Here's the dilemma I'm trying to get over: higher cost = greater accuracy = tighter tolerances = lower reliability when Murphy shows up. Is one of these factors wrong?

 

I don't have the 7.62 ball yet, but I plan on picking up at least 1000 rounds with the rifle. As far as me being overzealous... well, I have a propensity for mag dumps and plan to have at least 6 of the Magpul 25 rounders racked up in my chest rig. :D

 

I guess my concern is more along the lines of, "Which rifle could I keep in the fight longer?" Granted, the "fight" in question has a 99.99% probability of being a high round count training course, but I do tend to plan for the worst case scenario. :)

 

Just from my experience with my 308, I've put a ton of Federal XM80C (i.e. NATO ball equivalent with steel core) with zero reliability issues with my budget rifle. I figure if the barrel goes eventually, swapping out to a nice barrel later won't hurt the pocket much.

 

I think for most part, the reliability is inherent to the design of the rifle. The various brands can all be traced back to the original AR10 design and whatever weaknesses in the AR10 that would show up in all the rifles almost equally. That said, keep it clean after shooting and it should run reliably even after some dirt gets in. Don't expect mag dumps with the 7.62 because you'll probably be fighting to keep it on target if you're holding it unsupported. (BTW, the Magpul 25 rounders are still unicorns... haven't seen them in stores yet).

 

I'd put a well-made "cheapie" (e.g. Armalite AR10, Sig 716, S&W M&P10... even my CMMG) up against a high dollar rifle in your training course and wouldn't bat an eyelid about their reliability. Accuracy wise, I'm sure they may not match up, but at closer ranges, does it matter?

 

FYI - the Sig 716 is a good rifle but the receivers aren't "standard" DPMS or Armalite pattern.

Edited April 7, 2014 by shibiwan

[ardrummer292]

I'd put a well-made "cheapie" (e.g. Armalite AR10, Sig 716, S&W M&P10... even my CMMG) up against a high dollar rifle in your training course and wouldn't bat an eyelid about their reliability.

 

^^^ THIS ^^^ is what I've been wanting to know. Does anyone else out there agree (or disagree) with shibiwan's assessment?

 

Are there any rifles you can think of that are behind the "reliability curve?"

 

I don't plan on taking the rifle with me on a low-crawl tour of the Great Dismal Swamp, nor do I plan on dumping 500-1000 rounds in one engagement, but it would be nice if I had a rifle that could function after such shenanigans. :D

 

 

 

***EDITED TO ADD***

I don't know if this is of any consequence, but I'll be throwing a Trijicon 1-6x VCOG with RMR on this rifle with a custom BDC. This is in order to maintain optic consistency across my platforms (AR-15/TA31 ACOG + RMR, AK-47/TA33 ACOG + RMR, AK-74/TA11 ACOG + RMR).

Edited April 7, 2014 by ardrummer292

[shibiwan]

One last thing. If you end up getting a CMMG, I'd recommend that you tighten the barrel nut before you shoot anything through it.  <lmao>

Edited April 7, 2014 by shibiwan

[Rsquared]

DUDE! Just pick one and roll with it! <laughs>

 

I've had many range sessions with my AR-10 beater carbine that I've run through 300-400 rounds (Lake City M80) without even a burp. Even the AR-10 SBR that I built last year already has a round count of around a thousand or so. Like Sisco, all of mine are Armalite's (so far) so I can't talk about DPMS. Now, I'll be building a BRO upper/lower set (DPMS/SR25 pattern) later this year.....but that doesn't help for an opinion right now.

 

These things are like potato chips. Once you start, you can't have just one. <laughs>

[survivalshop]

Er...I've caught the FN-MAG (M240) on fire several times before but how did you kill that barrel! ..... and I suppose the threads of the barrel extension on the M2 must have broken otherwise the barrel wouldn't have flown out! How old was that M2? 1930s? Did you guys do the proper headspace and timing check before going hog wild on it?  <lmao>

 

Avoid the steel cased ammo. Looks like you have a ton of M80 ball so the 308 is the way to go. The question is how "over zealous" will you get with it. Construction wise, all the 308 AR's are built roughly the same way. Now, knowing your track record, would you like to break a $3000 Larue or a $1500 DPMS? Honestly I don't think either one breaks that easy....

 

(I just realized I said almost the same thing survivalshop said)

 

Great minds think alike ! <thumbsup>

 

 I used to do mag dumps , from a rest or bipod, but with reloading components being scarce since the "lier" took office , I have not done much of it. The rifles will take it .

[ardrummer292]

DUDE! Just pick one and roll with it! <laughs>

 

If only my research-obsessed mind would allow me to... :P

[shibiwan]

Seriously, stop overthinking it.  ::)

 

If you end up getting one right now, avoid the new DPMS G2 (GII) 308's because it's a brand new, significantly revised, and relatively untested design.

[ardrummer292]

Seriously, stop overthinking it.  ::)

 

I'm an engineering student, I can't help it. :D

 

I just wish I had a more thorough understanding of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics so I could choose a rifle from hard data points instead of second-hand information. Not that I don't appreciate everyone's help and experience, of course. :)

[Sisco]

DUDE! Just pick one and roll with it! <laughs>

 

I've had many range sessions with my AR-10 beater carbine that I've run through 300-400 rounds (Lake City M80) without even a burp. Even the AR-10 SBR that I built last year already has a round count of around a thousand or so. Like Sisco, all of mine are Armalite's (so far) so I can't talk about DPMS. Now, I'll be building a BRO upper/lower set (DPMS/SR25 pattern) later this year.....but that doesn't help for an opinion right now.

 

These things are like potato chips. Once you start, you can't have just one. <laughs>

And Right now I am getting hungry for something and it ain't potato chips!

[shibiwan]

I'm an engineering student, I can't help it. :D

 

I just wish I had a more thorough understanding of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics so I could choose a rifle from hard data points instead of second-hand information. Not that I don't appreciate everyone's help and experience, of course. :)

 

I dropped out of civil engineering, but managed to get a BSME, a BSEE, one BS in CS, and a MS in Manufacturing Engineering, taught engineering classes, and own my own engineering/manufacturing shop (13 years). The thing you eventually learn as an engineer is to trust your own decision (however bad it is) and to stop overthinking it, because you're always right.

 

With firearms you're dealing with supersonic flows so you can throw out the traditional fluid mechanics/dynamics. Start reading up on aerospace engineering material instead. :D

Edited April 8, 2014 by shibiwan

[unforgiven]

Rock River LAR-8 isn't complicated,just load and shoot. <thumbsup>  Just sayin. :hethan:

[shepp]

I'm an engineering student, I can't help it. :D

I:)

That explains a lot ;)

Rock River LAR-8 isn't complicated,just load and shoot. <thumbsup> Just sayin. :hethan:

War would be done and over by the time it showed up lol

[ardrummer292]

The thing you eventually learn as an engineer is to trust your own decision (however bad it is) and to stop overthinking it, because you're always right.

 

With firearms you're dealing with supersonic flows so you can throw out the traditional fluid mechanics/dynamics. Start reading up on aerospace engineering material instead. :D

 

I hate being right all the time. Don't tell the missus, she'll never believe you. :D

 

That's good information. I haven't actually taken thermo or fluid dynamics yet, just getting through mechanical dynamics now. Material mechanics is on deck for the summer. Any course or career recommendations for a future small arms R&D engineer? :)

 

 

 

That explains a lot ;)

 

Hey, someone has to design all these cool toys! :D

 

 

 

It seems that I have hit critical beer consumption and have shut down the analytical portion of my mind for the evening. Here's what I came up with:

 

Armalite AR-10A: looks pretty cool, probably doesn't suck. Why not?

 

Larue: does too many things for what I need. Nope.

 

S&W M&P-10: too many proprietary parts, none available to the public yet. Nope.

 

DPMS: yuck, it's a DPMS. Nope.

 

LMT: very shiny and neat, but not enough to warrant the price increase. Nope.

 

KAC: HA. Nope.

 

RRA: lacks general awesomeness and does not fetch me beer. Nope.

 

Windham: what's that? Nope.

 

Home build: I can only count to potato. Nope.

 

Sig/PWS/LWRC/CMMG: piston is the devil. Nope.

 

So, the good Dr. Yuengling's recommendation seems to lean towards the Armalite offering. I don't know if that's a good idea, considering the doctor in question also recommended that I tattoo the Terminal Lance logo on my arse. Thankfully, I made it out of that one scot-free.

 

shibiwan, is this the standard engineering thought process? If so, I'm gonna need a new liver in a few years...

Edited April 8, 2014 by ardrummer292

[FaRKle!]

shibiwan, is this the standard engineering thought process? If so, I'm gonna need a new liver in a few years...

Standard engineering process is generally subdivided into a few phases. First is the problem statement/pre-concept phase (what problem am I trying to solve?), followed by the conceptual phase (what technologies/methods can solve my problem, which ones should I choose to develop, what are my requirements?), then the development phase (draw up specifications and budget to meet requirements, testing), and finally production phase (release, and support).

That said, I'd look into materials and workmanship if I were buying a pre-made rifle. Material requirements might be 7075 receiver extension, AR-10 pattern receiver extension, 16" barrel length, ect., and workmanship requirements might be something like track record of properly torquing and staking various pieces, verifying headspace, known for keeping tight tolerances ect.

Edited April 8, 2014 by FaRKle!

[shibiwan]

Here's the correct thought process.

 

1. Realize you need a gun. Try to rationalize it (defense, hobby, skill, etc)

 

2. Look in wallet... check online statements etc. Realize that I have wife and kids to feed. Wife also needs to cut spending on crap - yes crap like getting her hair done (What's wrong with Great Clips/Supercuts? Why don't you go there instead of that $150 place? No? I go there all the time for my haircuts and my hair looks fine.)

 

3. Decide to ignore wife.

 

4. Go ogle at guns instead. That Larue/LMT/KAC/blah blah looks hot.... analyze options with engineering knowledge - decide you can make one better for less.

 

5. End up buying cheapie and spend more money on optics, ammo, and accessories. Engineering common sense says they're all the same and you can make them better when you glean more knowledge from first hand experience. Besides, it's not like throwing money away since you can always resell it (unlike expensive haircuts)

 

6. Go shoot, and discover you can't get enough destruction.

 

7. Do the math - it's cheaper to reload. Yes, all that engineering school math comes in handy.

 

8. Buy reloading gear, start reloading. The engineer in you enjoys having more gadgets around the house.

 

9. Shoot some more. Tons more... and keep reloading your own ammo. As an engineer, there's nothing like experimenting with loads etc. Besides, the wife isn't there at the range so you get some peace and quiet.

 

10. Wife says "why are you spending so much money on gun stuff?" Grunt and tell her that you're reverse engineering gun stuff so you can start making guns and that she should STFU and go make money for a change. Ask her to make a sandwich right after that.

 

11.  Goto #1.

 

P.S. I stopped drinking after the military (20+ years ago). I have bad allergies with alcohol....but that's a completely different story...

Edited April 8, 2014 by shibiwan

[Powerman]

I dropped out of civil engineering, but managed to get a BSME, a BSEE, one BS in CS, and a MS in Manufacturing Engineering, taught engineering classes, and own my own engineering/manufacturing shop (13 years). The thing you eventually learn as an engineer is to trust your own decision (however bad it is) and to stop overthinking it, because you're always right.

 

With firearms you're dealing with supersonic flows so you can throw out the traditional fluid mechanics/dynamics. Start reading up on aerospace engineering material instead. :D

 

Or just buy a gun and go to the range. Perhaps read up on marksmanship and ballistics... :auto:

[shibiwan]

Or just buy a gun and go to the range. Perhaps read up on marksmanship and ballistics... :auto:

 

^^ true...but there's no training like the real thing.