Single vs. 2 Stage

[D.R.D.]

For primarily longer range precision shooting, mostly from prone, bench and sitting, which would you recommend on a 308AR, and why?

 

Thanks,

DRD

[Gray05]

2 stage. Jewell, if you can get one. If not, Geissele.

Pull through that first stage while the planets align and just break that icicle when your sight picture is right.

A single stage would either have no travel and break at the slightest touch or have a very smooth travel. Neither would lend itself to long range precision shooting if I'm the one doing the shooting.

[washguy]

DRD I would use the hiperfire 24c......ive got the Geissele's ....the 24c is sweet... :) Wash

[Microgunner]

I've always been partial to single stage triggers.

[washguy]

I've always been partial to single stage triggers.

now that ive got both single a two stage triggers....Im with you on the single :) Wash

[edgecrusher]

For precision work I use Gisselle ssa-e

[StainTrain]

The Geissele Hi-Speed Match or DMR.  I am not sure which one of this pusher/enablers recommended it to me, but it is second to none.  In my experience, it is  just as reliable as the SSA and SSA-E.

 

The SSA-E is my runner up.

Edited May 20, 2014 by StainTrain

[survivalshop]

I used to think that a single stage was it , till I got my first Geissele SSA. I think its what your intended end use will be . I have a Spikes Tactical enhanced in one of my AR 15 carbines & one of Geissele's wife's triggers , can't remember the name, in my 24" AR 15 , but both are very nice single stages & both are about 5# triggers.

Edited May 20, 2014 by survivalshop

[D.R.D.]

Grey, I hear you.

Microgunner - why & which ones?

I've been leaning towards the SSA-E or DMR, but had been reading a lot about some of these fine tuned single stage triggers as an alternative.  

[Microgunner]

D.R.D.,

I installed a Timney 3.5# drop in into my S&W M&P-15T. Really like it.

My new Tac-Con trigger is a 4.5# single thar when set in third mode requires just the tiniest of finger movement th reset.

Some of my most accurate rimfires (Volquartsens and Anschutzes) all were shipped with single stage triggers and they're crazy accurate.

I do own a Russian CM-2 and a Winchester 75 target rifles that are equipped with two stage triggers but I always seem to prefer the single stage triggers.

[Rsquared]

2 stage

[D.R.D.]

As Gray05 wrote:

 

"Pull through that first stage while the planets align and just break that icicle when your sight picture is right.

 

A single stage would either have no travel and break at the slightest touch or have a very smooth travel."

 

So, isn't the key here to minimize movement in the firing process as much as possible, keep those crosshairs still, watch your breath, heart-rate, etc?  If so, then we'd want as little finger movement and as little muscle contraction as possible, no?

 

2 stage - you are slightly remaining in a active muscular contraction all the way through the first stage until the trigger breaks at the 2nd.  For precision work, that becomes more motion to control when trying to stay on target.

 

Single - you'd need to move your whole finger from the straight position, onto the trigger, then only press ever so slightly.  Now, there would be movement, but less contraction.  (I know, you'd better have a real good safety if you're using a hairpin single stage for precision work!)

 

I guess they both have their benefits and draw-backs, and of course it will always come back down to whatever a person shoots best with (given all other factors are even)

 

-obviously, I'm just thinking online / rambling...

 

DRD

[gnatshooter]

Muscle tension and motion are critical to precise shooting.

 

My dad told and taught me everything he learned from US Marine sniper training. Back then, all Marines had to go through sniper training, I don't know about now.

 

But anyhow, according to US Marine sniper training, your thumb rests on top of the knuckle of your trigger finger, and your trigger finger pulls toward your shoulder.

 

This has worked well for me for .177 and .22lr. I'm still getting used to the pistol grip on my LR-308, so I'll have to report back on whether that still works for such rifles.

 

I'm still working at getting over 'the flinch' on a big-bore weapon after decades of small-caliber stuff, but I'm betting Marine sniper doctrine still works for one-man cannon.

[D.R.D.]

So they teach not to wrap their hand around the grip?

[planeflyer21]

So they teach not to wrap their hand around the grip?

 

Don't wrap your thumb around the grip of the stock, holding your hand like a taco with your trigger finger on the trigger and touching nothing else.

[98Z5V]

2-stage for distance.  Single stage can't even compare to the controllability of a good 2-stage. 

 

SSA-E to start you out.  You will like it.  Once you're addicted, pick up the Hi-Speed DMR, and find another rifle to put the SSA-E into.

 

You won't regret it. <thumbsup>

[Gray05]

As Gray05 wrote:

"Pull through that first stage while the planets align and just break that icicle when your sight picture is right.

A single stage would either have no travel and break at the slightest touch or have a very smooth travel."

So, isn't the key here to minimize movement in the firing process as much as possible, keep those crosshairs still, watch your breath, heart-rate, etc? If so, then we'd want as little finger movement and as little muscle contraction as possible, no?

2 stage - you are slightly remaining in a active muscular contraction all the way through the first stage until the trigger breaks at the 2nd. For precision work, that becomes more motion to control when trying to stay on target.

Single - you'd need to move your whole finger from the straight position, onto the trigger, then only press ever so slightly. Now, there would be movement, but less contraction. (I know, you'd better have a real good safety if you're using a hairpin single stage for precision work!)

I guess they both have their benefits and draw-backs, and of course it will always come back down to whatever a person shoots best with (given all other factors are even)

-obviously, I'm just thinking online / rambling...

DRD

I find that having that second stage to pull up to and lean against is more steady and requires less to break than a single stage.

A hair light single stage I have to engage the trigger from scratch when it breaks.

Shooting long distance prone without a rest, you are bound into position with a sling. Similarly, my finger is somewhat bound against the second stage of the trigger.

[D.R.D.]

Great info! Thanks all.

[gnatshooter]

So they teach not to wrap their hand around the grip?

 

yep

[FaRKle!]

So they teach not to wrap their hand around the grip?

With this grip you bring your middle through pinky fingers in and rest the finger tips on the front of the grip and lightly place your palm against the side of the grip. The thumb maintains a straight profile over the hand (and doesn't wrap around).

If you google "Todd Hodnett grip" you'll see what I'm talking about.

Edited May 21, 2014 by FaRKle!

[D.R.D.]

Cool, thanks!

[gnatshooter]

Okay, and again, that was back during WWII, the Marines did not teach the Hodness grip. And back then, rifles did not have a pistol grip. The Marine way was to wrap shooting-hand fingers 2, 3 and 4 the normal way underneath the grip -- basically, providing support to the rifle without grabbing it. The trigger finger (#1) is for the trigger, and the thumb on that hand rests on the knuckle of the trigger finger. 

 

Although this picture uses a pistol, it shows the WWII Marine grip:

 

 

Now you can see if this guy shoots the pistol, it's gonna jump right out of his hand. And I have no idea what the Marines say nowadays, with pistol-grips on rifles. Clearly, with a standard buttstock where the shooting hand meets the neck of the stock, fingers 2, 3 and 4 will give good support for the weapon, from below. With a more vertical pistol grip, those fingers won't provide as much support, so something different might be in order.

[planeflyer21]

And back then, rifles did not have a pistol grip.

 

Some may consider it semantics but I would clarify this statement as "a protruding pistol grip".

 

Rifle stocks that have the curved down portion containing the palm swell have been called "pistol grip stocks" for hundreds of years, versus the straight/"English"/"shotgun" stocks, like on many of the lever-action rifles.

[StainTrain]

With this grip you bring your middle through pinky fingers in and rest the finger tips on the front of the grip and lightly place your palm against the side of the grip. The thumb maintains a straight profile over the hand (and doesn't wrap around).

If you google "Todd Hodnett grip" you'll see what I'm talking about.

This is one of several precision rifle grips which has also been demonstrated at Rifles Only and other Sniper Training Courses.  It is a great grip for bolt guns but I do not prefer it while I am running the ar platform or chassis with an AR type grip. That is not to say it doesn't work on those platforms...it does, 

Edited May 22, 2014 by StainTrain

[D.R.D.]

What does Hodnett, other precision shooting schools, or USMC Sniper program teach about support hand position on the buttstock?  Do they recommend using rear support bags to squeeze and change elevation?  Do they recommend stocks with hook grips like a PRS, bolt action McMillan/Manner/Bell&Carlson - or, do they prefer A2 type angled/tapered stocks?  I ask since i'm always trying to find the best hand position with a good solid hold that doesn't fatigue my support hand when prone or at the bench for extended periods of time.

 

Thanks!