98Z5V Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Hey Pegasus - you have alot of $hit to learn. It's pretty damn obvious that you think you already know everything about long range shooting, and your mind is closed. Open up your mind, and shut your mouth a little. You might be surprised at the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microgunner Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Oh shiit! Now you've got me giggling like a little girl again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Matt.cross, I love your humor and I totally agree with you; a 32 inch AR would be more like a crew served weapon than something to take hunting or anything further than from the back of the SUV to the firing line. And thank you for the warm welcome. I had seen the video before and it is pretty awesome, Jerry is quite the shooter. Did you catch him on Stan Lee's Superhuman show last week on the History Channel? Amazing stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Robocop1051. A neat video and one that I have seen before, but it's always fun to see it again. I watched the whole thing and it was great. I have two observations. 1- When he was shooting at the steel silhouette, there was not a breath of wind. He's in some type of valley or pit and the conditions are eliminated. All he has to contend with is elevation. Trust me when I say that conditions make a huge difference at long range. 2- About your last line: "... if you want to see how a Sniper... A truly accomplished sniper... views accuracy." I've said it before, I am not a sniper, never was and never will be. I am a competition shooter, an F-TR LR competition shooter. F-Class is not sniping. And just so you know I have competed alongside snipers from various branches and alphabet agencies over the years, some were retired and others were active duty on leave. We always extend a very warm welcome to them, as we have a special affinity with them. Remembering that this thread is about barrel length and its effect on accuracy; a 24 inch barrel shooting M118LR is hard pressed going against a 32 inch barrel spitting out substantially higher BC bullets at 1000 yards, in conditions. Sniping is not F-Class. And thanks for the nice welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) Pegasus-Despite your "I have shot more .308 that all of you" rhetoric, you are correct that the faster your bullet goes and the longer it can sustain its velocity the less time environmental factors (wind) has to play with it....but that only tells a portion the story. The article does a good job of explaining its position and provides data to back up its assertions......plus here is the author's background:Josh Wayner is a senior at Grand Valley State University studying Applied Research Science in the Interdisciplinary Studies Major. He has been a competitive shooter for nearly ten years and has eleven CMP medals from Camp Perry. Josh is also the owner of Scally Hill Systems and is constantly developing and testing new things. Long range shooting has been his passion for many years and he continues to push the envelope in modern rifle design. This guy doesn't seem like he walked in off the range with an opinion. I appreciate your competitive experience, but I would like to add.... Sniping is long range precision fire (so is big game hunting). It is not laying on your belly shooting a X or a 10 ring with a bipod the size of a compact car. You talk about conditions (wind/density altitude) as if that is the only thing a hunter or sniper has to overcome. Shooting positions (tripod/barricade/tree stump), fatigue, infil/exfil, rapidly changing weather, target speed, etc are all considerations of which most F Class competitors have no concept. We agree sniping and F-Class are nothing alike. I am glad that anyone from young kids to old women can purchase a custom rifle, lay on their bellies and shoot 1k all afternoon, but I ask that those competitors don't look or talk down to people who do it slightly less accurately than you do with a lowest bidder rifle and scope in conditions and circumstances that require a little more work that just toting the rifle from the truck to the firing line......all the while still making quality hits on target. Welcome to the forum and I have no doubt some can learn from you, but please consider keeping you ego in check here. This is friendly welcoming crowd....(unlike any forum on the web), but if you lay your nuts on the table someone is going to slap them for you. Edited September 6, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Again.... accurate vs accurate-enough. Shooter: Travis Haley (Veteran, Force Reconnaissance Marine) Rifle: Spikes Tqctical AR15 9" Barrel w/ suppressor Ammo: 300Blk Subsonic Distance: 750 Meters You can fast forward to 07:10 for the goods Watch the whole thing if you want to see how a Sniper... A truly accomplished sniper... views accuracy. I would like to point out that in this video you can clearly hear wind blowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 StainTrain, you posted a great message and I appreciate the fact you kept it on topic, well for the most part. I've been shooting competitively for over 30 years and for the last 8 years or so, it has been all F-class, F-TR to be exact, most of it at 1000 yards. I shot at least one NRA sanctioned competition every month at 1000 yards and have been doing this for all that time. As a matter of fact I will be shooting one tomorrow morning. My log books show more than 15,000 rounds fired competitively at 1000 yards; I think that allows me to navigate under the impression that I know a little bit about it. I hold ratings of NRA High Master at Mid-range and NRA Master at Long range, all in F-TR, with my trusty rusty .308 Winchester. The article we are discussing is what you call, an opinion. I specifically pulled a sentence from it to explain why it was wrong. At long range, conditions rule and if you can read and allow for them, you're toast. I have stated many times here that I am not a sniper, I know nothing of sniper craft, nor will I ever be a sniper. I am a competitive shooter. I never make any pretense that I would be able to do whatever it is that snipers do. Now, there is a reason why the military uses .300 Win Mags, .338 Lapua and 50BMG for long range snipping; can you guess what that would be? I was not aware that this forum was geared for snipers and snipers wannabees. I thought I could discuss ways and methodologies for accurizing 308ARs. When I look at my AR-10(T), I totally understand that it will never be able to keep up with my F-TR match rifles, at any distance. But I use my knowledge of what can be accomplished with a .308 Winchester to try to maximize the accuracy of my AR-10(T). And I am happy to share that knowledge with other owners of .308ARs. Finally, you seem like a reasonable person, certainly a lot more reasonable to some others here so I will just say this: I am a member of many forums and this one is about as nasty and aggressive as I have ever encountered. You may think this is a friendly welcoming crowd, it's not. But thanks for the welcome, I do appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) StainTrain, there is no wind to be seen anywhere on the video. If there is any, I would be funneled front or back, not side to side and I think you know that front and rear winds have little to no effect on the bullets. On the other hand the shooter was not holding the waterline worth a sh*t. At 800 yards, I can pretty much clean an F-class LR1-FC target; he was all over the place on that silhouette. It's silly to compare a 9inch .300 Blackout with a .308 Match rifle or sniper rifle at that range. The guy is trying to sell the rifle. It can do everything under perfect conditions. Is that really something you would foist on our military sniper teams? I wouldn't. Barrel length is important at long range, I don't really care who thinks it doesn't. Just got to a Palma match and look at the rifles. Go to Camp Perry and look at the rifles for the LR matches. Edited September 6, 2014 by Pegasus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) Barrel length is important. I think most people know that, but I don't think they attach the same importance to it that you do given their accuracy and distance shooting requirements. You are correct in that the military and several LEO agencies have as of late has chosen several platforms which offer higher velocity/high bc rounds. Since this is not the place, when you are at your competition tomorrow, see if one of those snipers there will discuss with you their preference and why in addition to the .308 being able to get the job done....transonic instability and all. Ask any of them, if they would prefer to carry a Barrett or MK13 over a MK11 or 12. Of course it is mission dependent, but you see where I am coming from. This forum is not geared toward snipers of sniper wannabes. The fact is that most firearms enthusiast view military/police sniper accuracy as an acceptable level of accuracy and they reference that a lot. The hunters on here seek info on engaging moving targets, ranging moving targets, external ballistics and multiple shot engagements.....all things that people who have spent time as snipers can assist with. You can hear the wind at the camera, which is to say it is at the muzzle, which means it is going to touch the bullet. You, nor I, can determine from the set of facts provided in that video which direction the wind is coming from and what it is doing between those terrain features. I know you have been shooting the .308 for over 30 years and there is a certain knowledge that comes with that experience, but let me add in my profession, I work with people who have been doing he job for 20-30 years and I find those people more resistant to new technology, new ideas, and new ways of doing things than anyone else. I have no doubt you are a good shot, but you won't reach people if you tell them that you are good and can back it up. If you don't know this already, there is always someone better out there. Now on to the forum....you got off to a rough start, I don't imagine you introduce yourself like this at matches, social gatherings, or dinner with your wife's friends. This forum is full of imperfect human beings, but by and large you don't see the BS occurring here that occurs on other boards. The guy you have butted heads with is a very knowledgeable guy and an awesome contributor here, but he, like the rest of us that have hung around awhile, want to head off any problems before they get started. Shooting is an individual sport, but don't forget that you are joining a team when you enter a forum, the team isn't joining you. Edited September 7, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microgunner Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Wow Stain, that was good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 StainTrain, wind noise in a microphone is meaningless; you get that just breathing on it. Look at the ground, look around the target; nothing, not even any hint of mirage either. There was no wind. I am glad we now all agree that barrel length is important, especially when you go to longer distances and have higher accuracy requirements. I know what you mean about people being resistant to change; I fall in that category a lot as I get older; 60 in a few months. The wind tomorrow will be coming from the right at 4-8 gusting to 20MPH. May be some rain also, lots of mirage. Should be fun, good practice for the Nationals next month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) BTW, on the subject of accurizing your AR; step no 1 is NOT to cut your barrel down to 13 inches. The basic rules of accuracy for any AR is to float a good barrel and shoot good ammo. Edited September 7, 2014 by Pegasus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 how did this forum survive without you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 how did this forum survive without you? We're all about to find out, everybody say bye-bye to Peggy Sue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) StainTrain, wind noise in a microphone is meaningless; you get that just breathing on it. Look at the ground, look around the target; nothing, not even any hint of mirage either. There was no wind. Forget it.....I am talking with a ghost..... <lmao> Edited September 7, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Just one more note for Peggy Sue, because he WILL hit the forum and view this thread. Look jackass, I'd like to see you jump your fucking 32-inch barreled F-Class rifle out of a high performance aircraft at 135 knots. That thing would probably go straight up your a$s upon aircraft exit, and opening shock would certainly fornicate you up, when that long motherfucker occillates and smashes your nose in. If you somehow survived that, it would certainly go up your a$s when you land. Oh, the landing - at that point, your F-Class rifle would be no more than a fucking pile of rubble, but you'd still fumble-fuk around with it trying to find out what really happened. That was test ONE. Next, kick that motherfucker out of a helicopter from about 15 feet. Shoot your F-Class 1,000-yard targets with it immediately afterwards. I don't want to see anything but X from you, either. Next, kick that bitch out the back of a truck going 35mph. Shoot your targets again. Next, SWIM with that boat-anchor piece of $hit. Do about 500 meters with it, engage targets. NEXT, throw grenades at that F-Class rifle - they don't have to be right under it, but that fucker needs hit with the shrapnel. Now, if your F-Class rifle can still engage your targets in THE SAME MANNER as the $hit you're talking about here in this thread, then I'll listen to your bull$hit. I also want to see pictures of your body once these test are done - oh YES, YOU are part of the test, too. Shocking, huh? You'll be one bruised up turd - and you still have to hit nothing but the Xs. Fucking idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 What scope ?? Hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 What scope ?? Hahaha Whatever scope it is in the video game he's playing. <lmao> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 He really wanted a trophy for participating I thought that was an easy bone? Bigons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I realize this will sound even more crass than my second post (my first one was in the introduction forum,) but I have more experience pushing .308 caliber bullets from a .308 Winchester than probably anyone here. No, you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) No, you don't. I wonder if he thought about the number of ex-mil guys here that have used the M240 on a regular basis. One live fire session with that and all the records go out the window. LOL :D Edited September 7, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 He doesn't realize that. He's fucking clueless. Also, fuk the 240 - I was an M-60 gunner at an early age... :banana: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 240 on my left, M2 on my right..120mm and another 240 right out front. ill see your 1000yd shots, and raise you another 2000 yds. yawn paper punch. real pic btw ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I could accurately shoot further than Peggy Sue with the Mk19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 The M60 is crap. Had to carry the original FN-Mag GPMG (i.e. the belgian-made version of the M240) much too often on missions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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