98Z5V

I load 'em up, and don't worry about them. <thumbsup>

shepp, I'm Tom. Nice to meet ya, brother - I really do exist... <thumbsup> <laughs> <lmao> :happydrunks:

In a counter to that - valve springs in engines. Do people worry about storing cars? Nope. Do cars start after long-term storage? Usually, if the gas didn't go bad. Do they worry about that #3 cylinder that was at valve overlap when they shut the engine down, and both valves were open (at compression) at shutdown? After long-term storage, do they replace all their valve springs? Nope. And the engines work. Cyclic kills them, not compression or extension. Store your mags loaded or full, it doesn't matter to the spring. What matters to the spring is how many times it cycles.

Once you visit in person, there's no recovery... <lmao> You already stated it, brother - back there every couple months; they're your source for small parts, etc. They're your pusher, now... <laughs> <thumbsup> I'm afraid to go up there, myself. I have enough pushers as it is - Roger @ Battlearms knows this... :o <lmao> I did make another order through ASA last night, though.

There's also a case-capacity difference between .223 Rem brass and 5.56 NATO brass. The NATO brass and .223 Rem brass share outer dimensions to a tee, but the NATO brass has thickness differences in the walls and base - that results in a smaller case capacity over .223 Rem brass. You load a (smaller case capacity) 5.56 NATO case with published .223 Rem max case load capacities, and you're asking for trouble. Doesn't matter what your chamber dimensions are. Chamber pressures are already gonna be higher from the reloading error between case capacities, then toss that 5.56-brassed hot load into a .223 Rem-chambered rifle, and all hell can break loose.

Mechanical differences between .223 Rem, 5.56 NATO, and .223 Wylde chambers:

Here's the mechanical differences between .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO chambers:

More than that... Here's an article by Glen Zediker on it: Chambers: that all-important point where everything starts So I don't leave anything out, I'm going to start this off pretending nobody knows nothin'. A rifle chamber is a hole cut in the breech end of a barrel so a round of ammunition will fit. It's a lathe operation. A "chamber reamer" is the tool that cuts this hole and it is shaped the same as a cartridge case with at least part of a bullet stuck in it. The reamer is going to cut out the case body and shoulder silhouette, the case neck, and then extend into the bore to form a bullet profile silhouette. It's here, the bullet profile area, where major tooling differences exist. There are a lot of different .223 Remington reainers. The two most commonly used in factory-done guns are at opposite ends of this universe––one is the shortest, and one is the longest. Let's look closer. What I called the "bullet profile area" is technically called a "leade." We can also call it the "throat." Inside the chamber, the distance between the end of the case neck and the first point cut into the rifled portion of the barrel coinciding with the barrel's land (rifling) diameter is the preeminent variable determined by the reamer. Land diameter will be the smallest dimension inside a bore. If the first point of full land diameter (usually 0.219" in a 224-caliber barrel) is farther from the end of the case neck (farther into the bore), then the chamber has a longer leade or throat. The bullet won't contact the lands until, of course, it reaches the point on the bullet that coincides with land diameter. I call this the first point of "major diameter" on a bullet. The effect or influence of this conical space ahead of the case neck is simple: The more space the less pressure, and the more space, the farther the bullet must "jump" until the bullet contacts the lands. Read all that again. Mole Hill And Mountain Now, SAAMI (Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute) long ago set its standards for .223 Remington based on bolt-action rifles chambered for this round. These bolt rifles were configured for varminting. There was, of course, originally a military chamber and round in use since the .223 Remington commercial round was renamed from the 5.56x45mm (NATO-spec) cartridge. The SAAMI chamber has a good deal shorter leade or throat than a military NATO-spec chamber. There is material elsewhere addressing the reasons this was a bad idea (SAAMI's bad idea), and it's become an even worse idea because it's never really been adequately explained to the folks––like you and me––who load or purchase ammunition for AR-15s. See, off-the-shelf AR-15s can have either chamber. Even worse, some barrels are not marked and some are improperly marked. Compounding matters (but not necessarily making them worse) is competitive use of AR-15s resulted in even more chambering options, and reamers. These came about when 80-grain bullets became available and immediately popular. The SAAMI chamber was too short and the NATO was too long. So the rest of this will make sense, the following dimensions are all based on an overall cartridge length that will have a Sierra 80-grain MatchKing bullet just touching the lands when the round is chambered. We don't all shoot Sierra 80-grain MatchKings, and we don't all set them to touch the lands, but most competitive High Power Rifle shooters do both. At the least it's a "standard" that gives us a point to work from. What I call the "Derrick Chamber" (Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks) needs an overall cartridge length of 2.442"; the "Wylde Chamber" (for competition-use AR-15 pioneer Bill Wylde) is 2.445"; the "AMU Chamber" (for U.S. Army competition team) is 2.500". There are others, but these are the most popular among competition rifle builders. A SAAMI chamber is normally about 2.410"; a NATO chamber is normally about 2.550". Those are huge differences, and I counted five different reamers just mentioned here. So the rest of this will make sense, the following dimensions are all based on an overall cartridge length that will have a Sierra 80-grain MatchKing bullet just touching the lands when the round is chambered. We don't all shoot Sierra 80-grain MatchKings, and we don't all set them to touch the lands, but most competitive High Power Rifle shooters do both. At the least it's a "standard" that gives us a point to work from. What I call the "Derrick Chamber" (Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks) needs an overall cartridge length of 2.442"; the "Wylde Chamber" (for competition-use AR-15 pioneer Bill Wylde) is 2.445"; the "AMU Chamber" (for U.S. Army competition team) is 2.500". There are others, but these are the most popular among competition rifle builders. A SAAMI chamber is normally about 2.410"; a NATO chamber is normally about 2.550". Those are huge differences, and I counted five different reamers just mentioned here. Bad? Worse? Better? Which generally bad thing is worse, or better? Chambering specification doesn't matter all that much to accuracy, but it can to round performance––not the same thing. The .223 Remington has a short case neck, a small body and, well, it's not the perfect round for 600-yard performance. It is, however, what we have to work with. Making it work its best means giving as much room as reasonably possible to the long bullets. This is done to prevent seating them so far back into the case. We need all the powder capacity we can get. I'm a fan of longer rather than shorter leade specs. Others disagree. There's no answer that can't be argued beyond an average man's concept of a "day." The good news is a longer throat doesn't seem to matter to the performance of shorter bullets. That's not to say it couldn't matter, but for it to positively influence groups using, say, a 77-grain Sierra MatchKing, the throat would have to be way shorter than what anyone uses in a High Power chamber. I've jumped to my own conclusion that once bullet-jump exceeds a few thousandths I'm not sure it matters. Jumping .015" isn't going to help much more than jumping .035". Reality is that we're shooting targets for score, and, therefore, we must judge the supposed good or bad effects from compromises by score. It's really common and easy to clean a 300-yard High Power Rifle target, with a high X-count, in a "long" chamber shooting "short" bullets, like the Sierra 77. That target has a 7" 10-ring. 5.56MM NATO VS. SAAMI .223 REMINGTON Pay attention to this! Out of the box, chances are an AR-15 will have either a SAAMI or a NATO chamber. There are huge differences. Specifically, 5.56x45mm NATO specs call for a longer leade than SAAMI defined for commercial .223 Remington (which was originally determined for bolt-action rifles). Leade is the portion of the barrel ahead of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. A shorter leade raises pressures. Compounding this, military ammunition is nearly always loaded to higher pressures than commercial. Shooting 5.56mm mil-spec ammo in a SAAMI "minimum" .223 Remington chamber can jump up chamber pressure 15,000 psi, or more. Not all AR-15 barrels are correctly marked, and some aren't marked at all. Know by asking the manufacturer, or just shoot ".223 Remington" ammunition and don't worry. Know also before selecting loading data. If loads were worked up in a NATO chamber (Colt HBAR, for instance), they will be overpressure if used in a SAAMI chamber. NOT TOO TIGHT Don't get too "precise" in chambering an AR-15. Leave that to the single-shot crowd who tediously and continuously prepare their ammunition. Don't ask for a headspace that's too tight (short), a neck diameter that's too small, a body area that's too close to new case dimensions, or a leade that's too short. The limits, to me, are found in looking at the ammunition you want to be able to fire in the rifle, and also what you want to obligate yourself to in the way of making dimensional corrections in your handloading process. I believe that an AR-15 chamber should be able to accommodate just about any ammunition. The good news is that you won't see any difference in on-target performance. This rifle can't show it. The main effect of "matching" ammo specs and chamber specs is longer case life and less dimensional change firing to firing. Have the chamber polished and keep it clean! Between .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO and .223 Wylde, there's even more. I'll try to post up what I know, and what I can find.

Damn. You're screwed now... <laughs>

Rob, if you're hooked on the .17 cal, you can do the following Savage, and just be done. You won't get the 16" threaded barrel (that only comes in the .22LR), but it's everything else - provided you can live with the 21" barrel. Short answer - get this one, and send it out to have the barrel cut down and threaded. <thumbsup> Model: 93R17 TR http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/ As a side note, I have now trashed Drew's thread, and you have me feeling guilty. You are at fault here. :bitchslap: I'm the innocent one... <dontknow> <laughs>

I think we were typing at the same time. If the primary reason for the build is home defense, then there are other rounds that will be much more effective at home defense, and not leave you deaf afterwards. <thumbsup>

Check Fulton Armory for a great stainless 18.5" barrel. Accurate as all hell. That may not be for you, though... What we need to know most is what your intent is for the gun. What will you use it for mainly, and what you'll use it for in secondary roles. That information is critical in the kinds of recommendations that you'll get back.

Unless you're going for looks, that KX-3 isn't going to do anything for you on a barrel of that length, or longer. You need to go short on barrel length in order to take advantage of what the KX-3 was designed for, primarily. It's secondary affect is directing blast forward, out of your buddy's face, in a room clearing situation. If you think you'll be in that situation with a 16" .308, then you're on the right track for it, at least in a secondary role.

Have I, somehow, driven Drew's thread into the ditch and straight into the cornfield again? Another one? <dontknow> <laughs> Personally, I think you did it, Rob, by asking about a 77/22 in there, somewhere... <lmao> :fawkdance:

Damn, Rene - they beat on me so bad that shepp thought I was some kind of fictitious character!... :o <laughs> <lmao>

No joke!!! <dontknow> Holy poop!!! I can't believe the pounding I just got on Page 6 here?! :o Rob, you just need to know something now, man - if you think you have BRD bad now, you're completely fucked once you visit. I'm already working 6 days a week and banking days off, just so I can play "for free" while you're here, and not have to eat into vacation time. I'm maximizing my chances at being able to "corrupt a LEO," here. <laughs> I'm even building a 7.5" 5.56 gun for you to shoot - just to make you realize "how much more maneuverable" that will be, over an 11.5" 5.56 gun, when you're in a vehicle... <lmao> You'll have those parts on order, in short order, after this trip. You'll realize the velocity difference between the two, with round fragmentation in mind, and you'll be looking for a way to justify the 11.5" gun in no time at all... <dontknow> No to mention, PINKY... poop-talking has a price, my brother. In this case, payback shall be through "BRD Karma..." :bitchslap: :ecs: <munch> What a damn tough crowd... :-[

Mike, did you know that these guys are right in Scottsdale? Locals, man. ;D <thumbsup>

I've done 600-yard shots with a 14.5" 5.56 carbine and the S3G. It works. I'd prefer the SSA-E for the long stuff, and you can still blow through it's 2-stage and use it as a fast trigger.

Rene, I love that Scorpion, brother! Damn good buy! <thumbsup> ;D

Roger sent me one for free, in the last Care Package. <thumbsup> It sits on the mantle with my Costa one. ;D

Load 'em up. Won't hurt the springs at all. What microgunner said is right on. It's the use (load, empty, load, empty, etc) is what will wear out a spring.

<laughs> <lmao> LMAO @ Jon... <thumbsup> Hell yeah, I did. Didn't think it would stay "stock" for long, did ya?!... :o :cookoo: Boyd's Tacticool stock (same stock that's shipped on the Savage TR, TR-SR and TRR-SR), DIP bottom metal setup, and a bunch of different Aervoe paint. <thumbsup>

Are the .40 and .45 mags different in outer dimensions? I was eyeballing them in the shop, and they looked almost identical, by my calibrated eyeball... <lmao> Edit - I'll be damned if the thing isn't injection molded with a ".45ACP" in the side of the grip extension... :o At any rate, I'm out nothing by sending it off to Jeff - I can't use it in any way. Going in the mail soon!

You guys both running 5.56 NATO chambers? Or is one of these chambers .223 Remington? I'd gauge both of them just to find out, even if they're stamped one way or the other. Believe the markings, but verify... I'm bettin' the chambers are different in those two. That would go a long way in explaining this stuff.

I'll send you a free mag-grip extension, for the compact, if you want one. Bought a spare 13-rd mag that had that thing slid down over it, and I don't need it for the full-size. Shoot me a PM, and I'll fire it off to you. <thumbsup>