Howdy from California (NorCal)

[liber]

I'm building an LR-308 pistol and am looking for some information about measuring my lower to understand what upper it needs. I think it is Gen 1, but not sure. The lower was gifted to me, and I've milled it. I'm pretty certain it is Gen 1, which I believe is high profile, but not positive and/or how I can measure the lower to determine that without buying a pig in a poke online.

 

Aside from that, I like to machine on my spare time as a hobby. I'm mostly interested in building my own firearms for personal use, in regards to lowers/receivers. Much of the other parts I will buy.

 

California has a lot of strange changes in the air this year, the single shot exemption for pistols ended for much of the pistols, now the sig brace malarkey, and I'm sure there will be more throughout the year. In anticipation of not being able to legally produce an LR-308 pistol, I milled a couple lowers before the end of year. Seems it might still be legal, but it's not clear to me just yet. The SSE effect those building for personal use, so it's not clear to me how the law exactly changed.

 

But I would like to emphasize to everyone...I'm not looking to leave California, I'm not looking to have my state called names, or made fun of. I don't like what is happening with the gun laws in California, but still, not rolling over for the morons in charge either.

 

With all that said, I'm looking forward to using 308AR.com.  :))

[Microgunner]

Welcome from Florida.

[bubbasks]

Welcome. What part of norcal. Im in colusa, the entry to the SOJ. and there are several others from sac/bay areas on here. Welcome to the board.

[Robocop1051]

Also a NOR☆CAL native.

[Robocop1051]

California gun laws are crazy. CALGuns has the most up to date info on that.

[liber]

Thanks all for the welcome.

 

Welcome. What part of norcal. Im in colusa, the entry to the SOJ. and there are several others from sac/bay areas on here. Welcome to the board.

 

I'm in Bay area (South Bay).

 

California gun laws are crazy. CALGuns has the most up to date info on that.

 

Yeah, but there's a lot of emotion, often over the top...there's a lot of miscommunication between people continuously...and quite a bit of bad info. That said, I'm not meaning to dis calguns, it's a great resource. Just requires chewing large grains of salt with some of the posts. I haven't posted too much there.

 

The Golden State 2A Council has a good meeting in the Bay area each month at Harry's in San Jose.

[planeflyer21]

Welcome from AZ!

[MikedaddyH]

Welcome from AZ !

[blue109]

welcome! most of my family is in Marin/Sonoma, however being a part of any gun forum, you are going to see your state being called lots of unpleasant things lol.

assuming your lower is an 80% DPMS pattern, I'm about 98% sure its gen1. I havnt heard about anyone making gen2 blanks. the gen 1/gen 2 thing is DPMS only at the moment and they are significantly different. I havnt put hands on a gen2, but there's a few on here so someone should be able to get you a basic measurement. high/low profile has nothing to do with the lower. it refers to the rail height of the upper and handguard. just want to make sure those two parts match. high profile is the older height for DPMS but several companies still use it.

Edited January 22, 2015 by blue109

[FaRKle!]

Welcome from the East/South Bay!

You can still buy/make an SSE AR pistol. What you have to do is register/transfer the pistol without a gas system so that it's strictly single shot. Later you can buy the parts needed to add a gas system.

Calguns has a lot of good info, but an awfully low SNR.

As Blue said, you can use any LR-308 G1 (commonly referred to as DPMS) upper on your LR-308 lower since the "high/low" profile is determined by the height of the 1913 rail on the upper receiver.

[liber]

Welcome from AZ !

 

Thanks (I didn't miss you either planeflyer). I saw that AZ is under attack by some idiot politician the past couple days on private sales and other stuff...

 

welcome! most of my family is in Marin/Sonoma, however being a part of any gun forum, you are going to see your state being called lots of unpleasant things lol.

assuming your lower is an 80% DPMS pattern, I'm about 98% sure its gen1. I havnt heard about anyone making gen2 blanks. the gen 1/gen 2 thing is DPMS only at the moment and they are significantly different. I havnt put hands on a gen2, but there's a few on here so someone should be able to get you a basic measurement. high/low profile has nothing to do with the lower. it refers to the rail height of the upper and handguard. just want to make sure those two parts match. high profile is the older height for DPMS but several companies still use it.

 

The friend that gave the lower to me can't remember where he got it from, but he is certain it's Gen1.

 

In shopping for uppers, it's not clear which ones are Gen1 or not. I see some listed as low, and I would think those are Gen2.

 

I asked Kurt over at KAK Industries and he said his stripped uppers are low profile. I'm pretty sure that won't work for me, so I'm guessing his "McClane" upper is the same (I can't afford to get one even if they were in stock right now). Most often people are not even sure what they have when they are selling uppers on the used market.

 

Welcome from the East/South Bay!

You can still buy/make an SSE AR pistol. What you have to do is register/transfer the pistol without a gas system so that it's strictly single shot. Later you can buy the parts needed to add a gas system.

Calguns has a lot of good info, but an awfully low SNR.

As Blue said, you can use any LR-308 G1 (commonly referred to as DPMS) upper on your LR-308 lower since the "high/low" profile is determined by the height of the 1913 rail on the upper receiver.

On the rail, wouldn't that measurement be different from the top of the lower, to the top of the RE ring? Seems if you put a low profile upper on a high profile lower, the charging handle will hit the top of the RE ring.

10-4 on the SNR. It is a good site, I've read and learned plenty from calguns, so don't get me wrong. :D

[Robocop1051]

Farkle is right about the SSE law. They didn't think it through when writing the law... go figure.

An AR pistol can still be bought as a SSE as long as it is originally built as a "Straight-bolt action". The gun cannot be a semi automatic, temporarily converted/modified to a single shot.

Companies will have to start making CA specific pistols, and log them in the paperwork as bolt actions.... This can be as simple as turning the gas block sideways and not including a gas tube.... even a safer bet would be no gas port on the barrel, but that'd put a lot more work on the buyers end.

It's so new that I don't know if anyone is going to go through the pain.

[blue109]

there is no gen2 high or low. the high or low is only a gen 1 upper thing. has nothing to do with the lower at all. high or low refers only to the rail height of the upper. the DPMS gen2 is a completely different system that only has one height and shares very little with gen1 in terms of partts or dimensions. you can use either high or low on your gen1 lower. it really only matters when choosing your railed handguard and sights.

Edited January 22, 2015 by blue109

[unforgiven]

Welcome from Indiana brother.

[liber]

Thanks unforgiven, we are all in this together, whether CA or IN, most states as a matter of fact are under attack on our 2A...
 

Farkle is right about the SSE law. They didn't think it through when writing the law... go figure.

An AR pistol can still be bought as a SSE as long as it is originally built as a "Straight-bolt action". The gun cannot be a semi automatic, temporarily converted/modified to a single shot.

Companies will have to start making CA specific pistols, and log them in the paperwork as bolt actions.... This can be as simple as turning the gas block sideways and not including a gas tube.... even a safer bet would be no gas port on the barrel, but that'd put a lot more work on the buyers end.

It's so new that I don't know if anyone is going to go through the pain.

I'm pretty much only interested in manufacturing for personal use, so as long as I can understand and justify it, I'm ok with it. The AR makes more sense to me, than say a 1911 or other pistol with the mag inside the handle. I'm unclear if the slide on a modern pistol functions and/or is a "bolt action", since it is certainly not a break-top action. On an AR pistol there is a bolt which is in the bolt carrier group. I completely agree that by removing the gas it would meet that. The one complication for sales through an FFL is that there are no AR lowers on the roster. I'm not sure if that matters to me building for my personal use, but it may for sales through an FFL.

This piece about the gas tube and/or bolt action was explained on calguns, but not without one of the regulars belittling me by accusing me of being a mole for the CA DOJ. This is yet another example of paranoia and fear that is spread into the firearms community, IMO. Sometimes the community itself is our own worst enemy.
 

there is no gen2 high or low. the high or low is only a gen 1 upper thing. has nothing to do with the lower at all. high or low refers only to the rail height of the upper. the DPMS gen2 is a completely different system that only has one height and shares very little with gen1 in terms of partts or dimensions. you can use either high or low on your gen1 lower. it really only matters when choosing your railed handguard and sights.

This is actually something I didn't know. So, if I understand you correctly, there is high and low profile for Gen 1? Damn, that really makes it complicated...  ???

 

Presuming I have a Gen 1, how can I tell if my lower is for a low or high profile specific ?

 

Thanks for the help guys, in trying to grok this stuff my thick head gets in the way... :(

[blue109]

I don't think we're on the same page here. ill hand this one off

[FaRKle!]

It's so new that I don't know if anyone is going to go through the pain.

IIRC Tracy Rifle and Pistol is doing it. They're also the guys that transferred BMoney's DPMS G2 (when every other FFL in the area said it was on the named banned list since the lower has the "DPMS" brand on it).

 

 

I'm unclear if the slide on a modern pistol functions and/or is a "bolt action", since it is certainly not a break-top action. On an AR pistol there is a bolt which is in the bolt carrier group. I completely agree that by removing the gas it would meet that. The one complication for sales through an FFL is that there are no AR lowers on the roster. I'm not sure if that matters to me building for my personal use, but it may for sales through an FFL.

If it could be made so that the slide doesn't cycle after every shot and couldn't unless you changed parts out I think it could satisfy the SSE2 requirements (along with a fixed magwell block and longer barrel length).

The whole point of SSE/SSE2 is that the firearm doesn't have to be on the roster for you to legally get it! That also applies to home builds.

 

This is actually something I didn't know. So, if I understand you correctly, there is high and low profile for Gen 1? Damn, that really makes it complicated...  ???

 

Presuming I have a Gen 1, how can I tell if my lower is for a low or high profile specific ?

There's actually three upper receiver rail heights for the LR-308 G1, however you really only need to worry about the "high" and "low" versions. For all three heights the lower receiver is the same! The difference in rail height has to do with the rail height above the charging handle. Since all three heights have the same charging handle position, there isn't any conflict with lowers.

Edited January 22, 2015 by FaRKle!

[liber]

I don't think we're on the same page here. ill hand this one off

I'm not exactly clear where our different pages are, but I do like to think that the internet is still a free exchange of information and that nobody holds a gun to any of our heads to reply to any messages. :)

 

If it could be made so that the slide doesn't cycle after every shot and couldn't unless you changed parts out I think it could satisfy the SSE2 requirements (along with a fixed magwell block and longer barrel length).

Yes, that can be done fairly easily.

 

The whole point of SSE/SSE2 is that the firearm doesn't have to be on the roster for you to legally get it! That also applies to home builds.

I agree, but the SSE needs to be understood and followed to legally manufacture a firearm for personal use, as I understand it. This could be a misunderstanding on my part.  <dontknow> 

 

There's actually three upper receiver rail heights for the LR-308 G1, however you really only need to worry about the "high" and "low" versions. For all three heights the lower receiver is the same! The difference in rail height has to do with the rail height above the charging handle. Since all three heights have the same charging handle position, there isn't any conflict with lowers.

Ok, thanks for that comment. If that is the case there is less to worry about as long as the top of the rail matches up. In looking at some of the pics online of problems with matching lowers with uppers, some had the charging handle slamming into the RE ring. That is what made me think the charging handle was at different heights on the different lowers.

[suzukiray]

Welcome Liber!

Ray.

[Boerboel guy]

Welcome from Az!

Definitely read through Calguns as much as possible, I'm sure you probably already have been. The rule with navigating calguns I have found is to stick to the legal section only and avoid all other nonsense. 

 

Who's 80% lower or plans did you use? Do they state which uppers its compatible with?

[liber]

Who's 80% lower or plans did you use? Do they state which uppers its compatible with?

 

That's the $64k question. That I don't know for sure. The person that gave me the lower had it sitting around and wasn't using it, and gifted it to me. He is 99% sure it's Gen 1. Since most lowers appear to be Gen 1, that's probably a safe bet.

In reading FaRKle!'s message it seems all of the lowers are the same. I'm not clear why I've seen some LR-308 with the charging handle slamming into the RE ring, where the pics look like the charging handle won't pull back as the RE ring prevents it from doing so...maybe that is AR-10 vs. LR-308, I'm not clear on that.

If all the lowers are the same, it seems as long as I make sure the upper and guard have the rail at the same height, I should be good to go...but those are like famous last words. I don't have an upper or guard yet, so getting them together will make sense. I will contact shibiwan as BLKSHEEP suggested in the Parts forum. I'm interested in putting the CMMG 12.5" .308 barrel on it.

I hope all that makes sense.

[FaRKle!]

I'm not clear why I've seen some LR-308 with the charging handle slamming into the RE ring, where the pics look like the charging handle won't pull back as the RE ring prevents it from doing so...maybe that is AR-10 vs. LR-308, I'm not clear on that.

That's due to there not being a universal spec for upper receivers like there is in the AR-15 world. They may be the same pattern, but different manufacturers have different tolerance ranges.

An AR-10 receiver set has a different cut where the upper and lower receivers meet above the rear take down pin.

[liber]

That's due to there not being a universal spec for upper receivers like there is in the AR-15 world. They may be the same pattern, but different manufacturers have different tolerance ranges.

 

Yes, the LR-308 world is not as cut and dried. One problem is that that is not a common measurement to provide on the upper. This would be the height from the bottom flat of the upper to the bottom of the charging handle slot. That needs to be at least the same height as the top flat of the lower to the top of the RE ring.

 

This makes buying online problematic. Maybe shibiwan can help with that.

 

Might be easier just to take the lower with me to the Cow Palace and try how the upper first the lower before buying.

Edited January 24, 2015 by liber

[98Z5V]

Nobody makes a DPMS Gen II upper, besides DPMS.  There are no other alternatives right now.  None.

 

Therefore, you don't need to worry about getting a Gen I or Gen II upper that you can mill out.

 

Hope that helps. 

[liber]

Nobody makes a DPMS Gen II upper, besides DPMS.  There are no other alternatives right now.  None.

 

Therefore, you don't need to worry about getting a Gen I or Gen II upper that you can mill out.

 

Hope that helps. 

 

But if I understand Farkle! there are different uppers, even for Gen I.

 

My head hurts. :-[