Ammo Ban Bull$hit

[98Z5V]

We, as a collective group, need to readdress the assault on the M855 round by politicians, the BATFE, and the President - we truly know who is behind this anyway.

 

This will not be "forgotten" by them, or "shelved" in a temporary manner. With what they led with, they faced a losing battle.  And, they lost that battle, at least for now.  You can rest assured that they will not stop, and this is not over.  It's far from over.  FAR.

 

The main contention they were pushing for was that M855/SS109 is an armor piercing cartridge - it is not.  It does not meet the definition of an armor piercing cartridge/load/round as defined by the LEOPA.  Just reading that information contained in that specific law proves that point.

 

These politicians are grabbing at straws, and their target is the AR Pistol configuration.  The AR Pistol configuration is not new, and it's been around for many, many years.  The GenPop (America, at large) doesn't have any idea of this, but the politicians are parrotting this as a "new thing" and a "threat to Law Enforcement." They are bending the LEOPA to fit their "new term" or "new toy" to try to bullschit the GenPop that this was never here before, and now it's a HUGE threat to LEOs.

 

Historically, it's never been a threat to LEOs.  FBI Statistics show that - or has the FBI been lying to the GenPop all this time?  I think not.  For your own shock, research the FBI statistics for Sandy Hook...  How many deaths and shootings were there for Sandy Hook, again?...

 

At any rate, my whole point for this longass post is simple. Very simple.

 

Level II, Level IIA, and Level IIIA armor is NOT rated for rifle ammunition, nor was it ever intended to protect against rifle ammunition.  Never. 

 

IS THERE A NATIONAL MANDATE THAT LEOs CAN ONLY WEAR THOSE LEVELS OF ARMOR?!!?

 

Fuk no, there isn't.  They can wear Level III and Level IV, if they want.  Those armors are rifle-rated.  And, if they're in a really fucked up city/county/state/situation, they already wear it.  And, they bought their own schit, because they value their own lives - and know their own situation.

 

When was the last time you heard about the Federal Government providing body armor to local/city/state LEOs?  Free?!  That's what they do?!  No, that's NOT what they do.

 

As a LEO, when was the last time YOU were provided free body armor?...   When was the last time you were provided free body armor that you knew, without a doubt, would protect you against EVERYTHING?  If you're a LEO, and you answer this question in the positive, then you're EOD.

 

Bottom line - and GenPop is clueless in this latest political assault on our freedom - pistol-rated armor was never designed to defeat rifle rounds.  Never was designed for it.If you  need to defeat rifle rounds - buy rifle-rated armor, LEO.  You have to buy your own, anyway.

 

Off my soapbox on this bullschit.

 

[guruofhotrod]

This does not look good! Seemed the panic was starting to ease up and here comes round 2!!!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/12/atf-raises-new-concerns-about-ar-15-ammo/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D627264

 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/its-back-dems-to-push-bullet-ban/article/2561494

 

Some commenters are speculating this could spread to any rifle round that can be fired from a "pistol" - from the looks of things

it's hard to say where they will draw the line - ^^^you're absolutely right, we've gotta stop this before it go's any further!

[98Z5V]

From your post above - second linked article:

 

"Rep. Steve Israel of New York Friday said in a release that he will push the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to "reevaluate" it's decision to back off a ban of the 5.56 M855 ammo."

 

The only problem is this - they're too stupid to even know the law.  They don't even know the "framework" of the 1986 LEOPA.  Too fucking dumb, and too fucking dumb to research it.  Here's the bottom line on it:

 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/09/the-obama-administrations-m855-ammo-ban-is-blatantly-lawless/

 

The Obama Administration’s M855 Ammo Ban Is Blatantly Lawless

 

The ATF has no statutory authority to ban the manufacture of M855 rifle ammunition.

 

Earlier this year, the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) unexpectedly announced that it planned to characterize all M855/SS109 ammunition (5.56x45mm) as armor-piercing and ban its manufacture. The ATF claims that its authority comes from a 1986 federal statute that defines armor-piercing ammunition and gives ATF the authority to ban it.

 

Unfortunately, the ATF’s claim is nonsense. It has no such authority to ban a rifle round that is economical, popular (especially among those who own AR-15s), and far less lethal than many other types of common rifle ammunition on the market. The ATF does not have that authority now and did not have it back in 1986 when the law was first passed. At its core, this is a naked and lawless power grab meant to effectuate gun control that the administration is unable to obtain via the ballot box or the legislature.

 

Here is the precise statutory definition of “armor-piercing ammunition,” which can be found in 18 U.S.C §921(a)(17):

(17)
(A) The term ‘ammunition’ means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ means—

 

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
© The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

 

This definition is really, really important when comes to the issue of whether M855 ammunition is “armor-piercing” or not. Interestingly enough, the definition does not require that so-called armor-piercing ammunition actually be capable of piercing armor.

The definition includes two main parts, at least one of which must be satisfied before ammunition can be classified as being “armor-piercing” and therefore subject to prohibition. Furthermore, each of the two parts contains multiple conditions, all of which must be satisfied. You cannot mix and match requirements from the two distinct definitions (the supreme importance of this point will become clear later). We’ll look at each of the two major definitions separately.

 

The first definition, from (B)(i) above, requires all of the following: a projectile (or bullet) must be 1) usable in a handgun, and 2) constructed entirely from “one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.”

Is M855 ammunition usable in a handgun? Yes. Although it’s primarily a rifle round, some handgun manufacturers built handgun platforms around it. Is the M855 projectile constructed entirely from one or a combination of those materials listed in the statute? No. It’s made from a combination of steel and lead, and lead is not one of the materials listed in the statutory definition of “armor-piercing ammunition.”

 

What does this mean? It means that the first statutory definition for “armor-piercing ammunition” fails to apply to M855 ammunition, since both conditions were not satisfied.

[98Z5V]

To reiterate...

 

The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ means—

 

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
© The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Edited March 15, 2015 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

Big fucking fail on the "AND" as well as the "OR..."  .223 Rem ammunition, as well as 5.56 NATO ammunition does not fit those very specific requirements, which are law.  Those requirements are law.  Not "rulings" or "guidelines" or "opinions" or "adjudications..."  Law.

[guruofhotrod]

Yea, it's amazing that they thought they could pull this one over on us - and got quite a black eye when called out on it! Now we've got this problem:

 

Quote from Washington Examiner article:

 

"Additionally, Rep. Israel is announcing legislation with Rep. Jackie Speier (D-CA) that would require the attorney general to modify the definition of armor-piercing ammunition to conform to the performance of the bullet."

[98Z5V]

The whole point is - they cannot do that.  They cannot "modify the definition of armor-piercing ammunition to conform to..."  anything.  They cannot modify that.  They can't go back in time and change the LEOPA, 1986. 

 

Spread that word, everyone. 

[MikedaddyH]

Tom are you done with your rant !

If not I will break your soapbox with my framing hammer.

The ONLY way these dickheads learn anything is when they are voted out of office and have to get a new job !

Vote those ¢o¢k$ucker$ out of office ! 2A people have long memories.

[slugger43]

The whole point is - they cannot do that.  They cannot "modify the definition of armor-piercing ammunition to conform to..."  anything.  They cannot modify that.  They can't go back in time and change the LEOPA, 1986. 

 

Spread that word, everyone. 

 

Problem is, like their fearless azzhole leader Prez. Jerkov, they don't really give a rat's ass about the law.  Obummer has proven that by simply ignoring the Constitution whenever he finds it inconvenient.  Dead on we need to spread the word.....and stay alert.

[Robocop1051]

As an LEO, I have to shake my head at what people think I wear. How many times have I heard it called "Bullet Proof Armor"??? I am issued a new lvl IIIA vest every 5 years. We currently upgraded our budget to about $900 per officer... that's front/rear panels, two concealable carriers and the ballistic insert... Survival Armor "Falcon6" if anyone wants to look it up. It's honestly the best-of-the-best when ithe comes to LEO concealable armor... still not "rifle rated".

I've contemplated buying lvl 3 or 4 armor for myself, but I honestly could not do my job in that armor. It's too bulky and too heavy.

Cops aren't clueless in this matter. It says right on the front cover what will and what will NOT be stopped by our armor. There's still a bunch of agencies that only issue lvl II armor... which doesn't even protect against magnum handgun loads.

2 years ago I shot the FN 5.7 at a retired vest. Every round penetrated both panels of our lvl IIIA armor (minus the ballistic plate insert, because those don't retire). So now what? Do we ban the 5.7x28 too? The .22WMR will penetrate as well... I hear the 7.62x25 does a decent job on some armors as well...

Just wait till some forward thinker brings forward the 9x25 Dillon, and shows what a 90gr projectile does at 2100 fps.... (ps. I want one!)

Why stop there... anyone have any idea what a Gamo Hunter Extreme, loaded with .177 PBA ammo, will do to a vest?

[MikedaddyH]

The 5.7 x 28 armor piercing ammo is already LEO only and not available to the public.

[Robocop1051]

The 5.7 x 28 armor piercing ammo is already LEO only and not available to the public.

I did it with their very available HP ammo.

[MikedaddyH]

With the AR57 the PS-2000 or the Handgun?

[AdamO]

You're spot on brother Tom. This isn't over by a damn sight.

Ya know, I raised nine kinds of hell this last time around. Wrote letters to my congressmen, to the ATF, signed petitions, made phone calls..

I'll stand to do the same each and every time any of my rights are accosted. But you're right when you imply that they won't stop until they seize everything.

I'm stocking up on lowers now getting "ready for hillary" which is meaningless in the scheme of things but its something I can do for myself in preparation for what I see coming.

The bigger point is we must remain vigilant at all times and fight for whats ours. Freedom isn't free... at home or abroad... I once, like many of you swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same..

We must all keep up the good fight and make our voices heard each and every time. There is no room for a "silent majority" anymore. If nothing else our liberal friends should have tought us by now that the squeaky wheel gets he grease. The "shelving" of the M855 ban bears testiment to this.

Get active, get involved, and get loud, or don't bitch about it when you wake up one morning to find youself living in the Twilight Zone wondering WTF happened!

My .02

-A

Edited for spelling. (Damn phone)

Edited March 15, 2015 by AdamO

[unforgiven]

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE  you are so right brother, and the you have this : https://dragonskinarmor.com/  yet it is not common issue ,why cost @ aprox. 5 K.As a tool for the job I'd get it.L.E.O. here said his vest is not stab resistant.Only knock I saw was high temp. 100*+ left scales less resiliant.You guys make me proud to be here. <thumbsup> 

Edited March 15, 2015 by unforgiven

[survivalshop]

  One word ....................................................LOQUACIOUS       <laughs> 

 

 

 

 

 

 Would not put it past the Insurgents we have running the Gov. right now , to get or fix an LEO getting shot with a M855 , just to show that it could happen !    <dontknow> 

  

[AdamO]

^^^ Exactly what I thought when I heard about the 2 LEOs shot in Ferguson.

Several of my good friends are either local PD, Sheriffs, or BP. It just chaps my ass to think that could happen. But would nit put it past the current regime.

F&F anyone?

[98Z5V]

Good vid from Military Arms Channel.  Very good vid.

 

Rob, here's some 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo that's very close to the 90gr at 2100fps you wanted to see.  All these shots are against level IIIA.

 

https://www.full30.com/video/bb4bb9aff53dc8d0be5718c7982bf55b

[hired_gun]

The fact of the matter is that the ATF has never really given a danm what the law says.  They are notorius for playing the game with their rules and then trying to out spend someone in court.

 

Now with a POTUS that could not careless about the constitution the tableis pretty much set for themto try do do what they want.

 

I figure one way or another we will see some sort of ban.

[98Z5V]

I figure one way or another we will see some sort of ban.

 

I personally don't think we will see a ban, of any sort, in reference to this.   They did NOT expect the pushback they got from the American People.  That fucked them up.  They poked the bear, and they now know that.

[slugger43]

I personally don't think we will see a ban, of any sort, in reference to this.   They did NOT expect the pushback they got from the American People.  That fucked them up.  They poked the bear, and they now know that.

 

I think you are right....for now. Obummer would screw us if he could, and ATF still obviously wants to.  I don't think Congress will allow them to do it.

 

  Damn impressive video.  Surprised at the penetration.  Wow.  

[survivalshop]

  Very interesting video .

[392heminut]

  They poked the bear, and they now know that.

Not to mention poking the gorilla too!

[blue109]

what if a gorilla poked a bear?

[392heminut]

what if a gorilla poked a bear?

That's called a PPV event! :)