calling HVAC guys

[blue109]

Ok....the time is drawing near to buy a new system. My ancient roof mounted dual unit is dying and costs a fortune to run.  My house is 2600 sq ft, but only about 1200' is plumbed in.  the rest of the house consists of the pool room and a huge family room that has its own evap cooler and a big stone fireplace for winter. The big rooms are not ducted in, but have large sliding glass doors into the main part of the house. I know nothing about this stuff and id like to have an idea what im looking at before I start calling for estimates. Give me some places to start researching. are split units better? How much $ damage am I looking at?  Brand recommendation? Roof vs ground mount? 

[shepp]

9 hours ago, blue109 said:

Ok....the time is drawing near to buy a new system. My ancient roof mounted dual unit is dying and costs a fortune to run.  My house is 2600 sq ft, but only about 1200' is plumbed in.  the rest of the house consists of the pool room and a huge family room that has its own evap cooler and a big stone fireplace for winter. The big rooms are not ducted in, but have large sliding glass doors into the main part of the house. I know nothing about this stuff and id like to have an idea what im looking at before I start calling for estimates. Give me some places to start researching. are split units better? How much $ damage am I looking at?  Brand recommendation? Roof vs ground mount? 

I don’t know much about those units you guys use down there but I’ll input that I do know. Those split systems with the wall mount unit that blow in the room “Mitsubishi split systems” are junk imo I’ve worked on them I hate them (I’m also not “trained” to work on them). The other thing is Most company’s trane, Lennox, Carrier all have a sister company that costs less but is pretty much the same product at a lesser price. Hope that helps 

[blue109]

Good stuff. 

[edgecrusher]

Pm Ron, he may have some input here, @Rsquared

[unforgiven]

A heat pump might work for you or an 80+ w/3 ton cooling.. Biggest reason why room just doesn't come to temperature, is not enough return air. Or to much flex is used and could be kinked, flex needs to be pull tight , all metal is best. Seal/ wrap all the connections.

[blue109]

^see...I have to google all that crap now because you are speaking chinese to me lol. Good stuff. I hate spending money blind and this is a significant investment for a broke ass like me. 

[shepp]

4 minutes ago, blue109 said:

^see...I have to google all that crap now because you are speaking chinese to me lol. Good stuff. I hate spending money blind and this is a significant investment for a broke ass like me. 

Flex duct looks like big dryer vent, round wrapped in black plastic (usually)

[shepp]

31 minutes ago, unforgiven said:

A heat pump might work for you or an 80+ w/3 ton cooling.. Biggest reason why room just doesn't come to temperature, is not enough return air. Or to much flex is used and could be kinked, flex needs to be pull tight , all metal is best. Seal/ wrap all the connections.

Yup! Kinks, sags, twists, 90’s it all shows the air down 

[blue109]

FYI...never do a google search for "kinks sags twists 90s"

Eyebleach

Edited May 3, 2018 by blue109

[392heminut]

If you're running evaporative cooling in one part of the house and refrigerated air in another part and the two areas aren't kept completely separated from each other you have one system fighting against the other. The refrigerated system pulls moisture out of the air and the evaporative cooling uses moisture in the air to cool it. Anytime the two areas are open to each other each system is playing havoc with the efficiency of the other system.

[sketch]

dont know shits about it but our heat pump is a ground system. id rather have a ground system than a roof system. eaiser to work on. my return air is down stairs. (2 story) the girls hit the ac and the down stairs is like a meat locker where i sleep! The instal was simple just a few k$ for a pump out side and a cold copper pipe to the existing furnace/ heater.. i say a few, its not cheep! i wish i knew more and id make their money instead of paying for it. put a security cam on it..

[blue109]

The house is pretty compartmentalized. The evap and AC are independent and on opposite sides of the house. I have lots of big sliding glass doors so I can close off certain areas. Right now im running the evap when it gets warm and I open up the house to let it flow , but when I run the AC I close off the side where the evap is located. 

I think at one point there was a small AC unit (mini split I think its called?) over the large family room. There is an electrical line up on the roof and a hole in the brick leading outside. I filled it with expanding foam when I moved in.

 

There is a closet directly under where the roof unit sits I use for storage and I assume thats where an old system was, so I can probably go either split or package unit without too much trouble. 

[GoodByNAair]

What are you really looking for here ? The rest of your house to be full DX with duct unit or split unit?  Up front Duct and "ground" unit with condenser out side and evaporator inside will be more $$ up front. But cool better and look better. Slim spit (ductless) units work but only really only cool one space.  I'll follow up tomorrow, Play off hockey and need sleep. I think I can be of some help as I work for Siemens and do HVAC controls.  I need more details about your summer and winter if you have one ect. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by GoodByNAair

[blue109]

Thanks @GoodByNAair. Im in Tucson, AZ so a few weeks of pretty cold and a few months of really really hot. Basically my central air went out. Its a package heat/AC unit on the roof. im sure its just a broken line somewhere but the entire thing is really old and inefficient. my gas and electric bills are really bad for the hottest/coldest months. It uses the old refrigerant and will cost a ton to refill and im tired of throwing money at it so its time to upgrade.

The evap is working for now, but it wasnt designed to cool the whole house. its mounted in the room labeled POOL. I can open that room to the rest of the house for temporary relief but its useless when the monsoons come or for anything over 100*

The room labeled AZ ROOM is not ducted in but looks like it had a separate slim split at one point. There is capped wiring on the roof right there. It has a big fireplace so no need for heat. there are big glass doors between AZ, POOL, and the main house so I can close off whatever isnt being used. im not overly concerned about this room at the moment. Its more of a luxury depending on how much the main upgrade is going to cost.

I dont really mind the ugly roof unit. Most of the houses around here use them, but it looks like there was a split outside/inside unit on the house at one point so I could probably go back to that if it was a better option. i really dont want to have to put in new duct work or any major construction. 

 

Knowing which brands are solid and reliable would be helpful.  Ive been reading but there is alot of info and lots of opinions out there. 

 

[shepp]

3 hours ago, blue109 said:

I think at one point there was a small AC unit (mini split I think its called?) over the large family room. 

This it what I meant when I was saying junk lol, it’s been a long week I’m on call and it’s been a long one so my brain is alil slower than usual. 

 

3 hours ago, GoodByNAair said:

What are you really looking for here ? The rest of your house to be full DX with duct unit or split unit?  Up front Duct and "ground" unit with condenser out side and evaporator inside will be more $$ up front. But cool better and look better. Slim spit (ductless) units work but only really only cool one space.  I'll follow up tomorrow, Play off hockey and need sleep. I think I can be of some help as I work for Siemens and do HVAC controls.  I need more details about your summer and winter if you have one ect. 

Also agree with what he said about the ductless units, again what I was talking about above (mini split/ductless). I’ve worked on a few brands, I don’t like them there’s a lot of shit crammed in a little compartment, tech support as if seen sucks and like good said they’re only meant for a single room, I run into them in offices. Sounds like good should have some good info I’m just a field ape ??

[shepp]

1 hour ago, blue109 said:

Thanks @GoodByNAair. Im in Tucson, AZ so a few weeks of pretty cold and a few months of really really hot. Basically my central air went out. Its a package heat/AC unit on the roof. im sure its just a broken line somewhere but the entire thing is really old and inefficient. my gas and electric bills are really bad for the hottest/coldest months. It uses the old refrigerant and will cost a ton to refill and im tired of throwing money at it so its time to upgrade.

 

 

It’s probably r22 refrigerant which is being phased out, it was up to 800$ for a 30 pound jug, which is super high compared to others. And like you said anything newer is going to save you much more in the long run. It’s just that upfront cost that’s a kick to the balls! I’m in the same boat I need a new furnace and ac 

[unforgiven]

Window shakers have come a long way combined with cieling fans.

[Armed Eye Doc]

Don't forget to see if there is any tax or utility rebates for upgrading to energy efficient units.  It may not be much, but every little bit helps. 

[Rsquared]

Die once or die a thousand deaths. Even though it cost's more up front, I'd go with a traditional split system. Condenser/compressor outdoors with the evaporator (ducted ahu) indoors . Like Good said, it'll cool better over the life of the unit. But I also don't claim to be an expert. Similar to Good, I'm into HVAC controls these days, and it's been almost 20 years since I came out of the mechanical field.

I'm not really up on "brands" for residential. These days, most of them are pretty similar under the hood. Wish I could be more help brother.

[blue109]

Thanks guys. Been reading through this guys blog and it looks like he puts out some good info and advice. 

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/furnace-air-conditioner-combo-cost/

[Rsquared]

People like to $hit on those Goodman units. But me and a buddy of mine swapped out my ancient unit about 4 years ago with one of those. And it's never even burped since then. It was only about a 1 1/2 ton unit (house is only about 2400 sq ft). Only cost me about $1900. But that was with us doing all the labor.

Good luck brother. The HVAC field is one of those that people can get screwed easily if not paying attention.

[shepp]

1 hour ago, Rsquared said:

People like to $hit on those Goodman units. But me and a buddy of mine swapped out my ancient unit about 4 years ago with one of those. And it's never even burped since then. It was only about a 1 1/2 ton unit (house is only about 2400 sq ft). Only cost me about $1900. But that was with us doing all the labor.

Good luck brother. The HVAC field is one of those that people can get screwed easily if not paying attention.

Goodman’s gotten better over the years I have 8 stores with them only thing I don’t like are the combustion blowers are shitty

[GoodByNAair]

18 hours ago, blue109 said:

Thanks @GoodByNAair. Im in Tucson, AZ so a few weeks of pretty cold and a few months of really really hot. Basically my central air went out. Its a package heat/AC unit on the roof. im sure its just a broken line somewhere but the entire thing is really old and inefficient. my gas and electric bills are really bad for the hottest/coldest months. It uses the old refrigerant and will cost a ton to refill and im tired of throwing money at it so its time to upgrade.

The evap is working for now, but it wasnt designed to cool the whole house. its mounted in the room labeled POOL. I can open that room to the rest of the house for temporary relief but its useless when the monsoons come or for anything over 100*

The room labeled AZ ROOM is not ducted in but looks like it had a separate slim split at one point. There is capped wiring on the roof right there. It has a big fireplace so no need for heat. there are big glass doors between AZ, POOL, and the main house so I can close off whatever isnt being used. im not overly concerned about this room at the moment. Its more of a luxury depending on how much the main upgrade is going to cost.

I dont really mind the ugly roof unit. Most of the houses around here use them, but it looks like there was a split outside/inside unit on the house at one point so I could probably go back to that if it was a better option. i really dont want to have to put in new duct work or any major construction. 

 

Knowing which brands are solid and reliable would be helpful.  Ive been reading but there is alot of info and lots of opinions out there. 

 

what is really cold??

"Im in Tucson, AZ so a few weeks of pretty cold and a few months of really really hot."  

 

I'm thinking a dual stage compressor 410a heat pump would work well for you. (all) Read up on modern heat pumps before you start hating on them thinking they are like the ones from 20 years ago. R22 (old) and 410a (newer) are very different. only had a min to reply will have more details later.

Edited May 5, 2018 by GoodByNAair

[shepp]

1 hour ago, GoodByNAair said:

what is really cold??

"Im in Tucson, AZ so a few weeks of pretty cold and a few months of really really hot."  

 

I'm thinking a dual stage compressor 410a heat pump would work well for you. (all) Read up on modern heat pumps before you start hating on them thinking they are like the ones from 20 years ago. R22 (old) and 410a (newer) are very different. only had a min to reply will have more details later.

Heat pump down there would work. 

 

Old man got talked into this carrier unit that runs as a heat pump Down to 35* OAT then goes gas furnace after that. You know son went to school for hvac but what’s he know (fucking typical) anyways it works pretty good but he’s gonna hate him self when one of those duel voltage modulating multi speed motors goes out. 

 

Id imagine everything down there is with heat pump or electic heat? Makes most sense? 

You guys hit freezing at night a few weeks a year? 

 

 

[GoodByNAair]

Hitting freezing only a few weeks a year something like a 16 SEER+ two stage heat pump should be fine. They can be efficient into the mid 20s°F. Its not always about 32°F = freezing, but absolute 0. When removing heat from the air or adding it to the air different refrigerants at different pressures play a big role in what works or does not work. 

 

The  two stage compressor will also kill it in the summer too. 70 °F - 100°F. 410a.. This is all based off that you have good windows and doors  + insulation as needed in the home. 

Also important that your duct work is sized right sealed right and insulated right. If not your new system could run and run, and run your  bill up making you question its efficiency. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by GoodByNAair