Gopher Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Ok, so see past post about the issues I have been having in the past, see below. https://forum.308ar.com/topic/16329-pa10-gen-2-tube-marks/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-248346 https://forum.308ar.com/topic/16145-pa10-gen-ii-my-findings-on-parts-info-and-range-data-log/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-245834 This is a continuation of the past post but wanted to put this in a new post so it’s easy to find. I went out the lease last weekend and was hoping that my issues from before were resolved but by no they were not. I am still having issues with my PA10 and I am getting really frustrated with it. So, in the past I was given the wrong buffer tube/spring and buffer as seen in the post by 98Z5V here the-problems-with-the-pa-10-carbine-recoil-system, thanks again 98Z5V for offering up the help and posting your findings. Well 98Z5V sent me his Armalite gas system to use as a test. Well below are the results of it: I am still having the issues with the 1 shot/no shot after. I have done may test and it seems that the bolt is not fully setting after the first shot, thus no second shot. I have done several tests with different mags and different rounds and the same result, 1 shot then no second because bolt does not set all the way. Something that I was alerted to at lease from my cousin is there are markings in the upper receiver, so I looked for my self and sure enough the bolt seems to be doing some damage inside the upper. As far as the mags go, I can not load either of my mags if the bolt is closed, only when the bolt is open. This maybe causing an issue too, not sure but if so then there is an issue maybe with my lower. Maybe I am doing something wrong but this has been a pain in my ass from the beginning and I am really regretting getting this gun, looks like next step is to contact PSA and return it. See Images Below: Edited July 10, 2018 by Gopher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) That gas tube it too short. You're not getting what you need, as far as gas goes. I wouldn't put it past the gas port diameter, either, and assume that it's large enough. Whatever you do, don't give them that recoil system! Just send them the upper, man... I'll bet I can fix this... For real... I would turn this thing around in a week for you, includes test firing to verify function. Edited July 10, 2018 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 98Z5v, I will send you a PM, we can talk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 49 minutes ago, Gopher said: 98Z5v, I will send you a PM, we can talk Sir, I can verify 98’s a man of integrity and vast knowledge on this and all AR platforms. If you entrust him with your weapon it will be fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 But I cannot entrust him with a quality bourbon.... that shit will disappear like an x files case!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) lol, Yeah we have already exchanged gas system about a few months ago to try to get me up and running, I trust him, just going to give him a call if I can. As far as bourbon goes, the bottle will be empty before it even makes it to the mail box on the way to him, lol. Edited July 11, 2018 by Gopher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 Where's the oil? Why is the oil always gone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mley1 Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 I'm gonna be interested to see what the real problem was. And, what the solution will be. Thanks for keeping us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 I've got my ideas on what I might see, when I look at everything that's been going on. For one, right away, I now know that the recoil system is not the problem, not with the parts that are in it now. The old recoil system sucked, though. However, the problems continue, with a few new issues or highlights, with a solid recoil system. I already know the gas tube it too short. I suspect I'll find a gas port that's too small, also. That makes a weak gas system, and that weak recoil system would normally operate it. I think I'll find an extractor spring that's insanely stiff, too. Who knows what else. I think those are the big items I'll see, and correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) On 7/10/2018 at 3:15 PM, 98Z5V said: That gas tube it too short. You're not getting what you need, as far as gas goes. I wouldn't put it past the gas port diameter, either, and assume that it's large enough. Whatever you do, don't give them that recoil system! Just send them the upper, man... I'll bet I can fix this... For real... I would turn this thing around in a week for you, includes test firing to verify function. All my PSA gas tubes are in the same position and appear to be the same length... OEM and aftermarket. I will post photos after "Modern Technology" sends me the friggin' e-mail.. Lol I am curious if the bolt carrier ( with no bolt installed ) will easily slide into its proper position ? Also, I would check your front sight / gas block... make sure it is not loose or canted, or if the gas tube is loose... and / or is the gas key loose ? I would avoid Monarch ammo. .. some of my adj. GB ones dislike even ZQI's inimal volume of gas ( odd powder burn rate or ? )... Because I am not positive... how many rounds have actually been fired ? Can you see if the BCG has any odd wear marks on it ? .. and post photos if there are. And check the bolt lugs for odd wear marks. Edited July 14, 2018 by bfoosh006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) bfoosh - your gas tube is too short. It should come to the center of the cam pin cutout. Edited July 14, 2018 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, 98Z5V said: bfoosh - your gas tube is too short. It should come to the center of the cam pin cutout. @98Z5V I gotta say.... All my PSA's are like this, .308 and 6.5CM ( 8 in total... and they all run fine. Even prior to my adding Adj. GB's ( tuned 5-6 clicks open of the available 15 being wide open ) , heavy ass buffers and Tubbs .308 recoil springs.... And with a variety of BCG's... AIM, Toolcraft, PSA ( Big diameter FP, Small diameter FP, dual ejector, and the current .070 diameter FP ) and one more brand that I can't seem to remember. ( FOR THE LIFE OF ME , lol ) So, I suspect there is something else going on with Gophers PSA . Then the gas tube length. I wonder if the gas key is loose and causing binding and / or short stroking. And just because mine all came that way.... that doesn't mean it is correct.... but, Mine have all functioned properly as they came from PSA ( albeit overgassed ) and after I did my "overgassed" corrections they only ran smoother. Lol, maybe "Ignorance is Bliss" on my part. Perhaps Gophers is like this one... ( to short ) https://forum.308ar.com/topic/11808-a-word-to-the-wise-about-the-palmetto-state-armory-pa-10/ Edited July 14, 2018 by bfoosh006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) @98Z5V I should also add... PSA's are my only .308 AR framed firearms... and with them all running fine in OEM form ( granted, overgassed ) ... I really never gave it any extra thought, apart from "wow, the gas tube on a .308 AR doesn't go very far into the gas key... oh well , off to address the over gassed aspect" Now you have me wondering.... Edited July 14, 2018 by bfoosh006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfoot Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 Feel for you guys.My PA10 runs ok with soft ammo but not ideal.Upper has similar marks as yours. I would take 98Z5V up on deal to ship and fix.5th of favorite beverage and I would ship in a heart beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 55 minutes ago, bfoosh006 said: @98Z5V I gotta say.... All my PSA's are like this, Got any 5.56 guns? Go look at them, in this area... I'll pull some .308AR pics for you in awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Sure plenty of 5.56's, but again,... my Large Frame AR's all have had no issues function wise, except for being terribly overgassed. And they all run with that same short gas tube length into the receiver. I am still betting it is a loose gas fitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 1 hour ago, bfoosh006 said: Sure plenty of 5.56's, but again,... my Large Frame AR's all have had no issues function wise, except for being terribly overgassed. And they all run with that same short gas tube length into the receiver. I am still betting it is a loose gas fitting. You don't know what I'm talking about. Go look at your 5.56 guns, and see where the gas tube ends in the cam pin cut-out. The gas tube ends directly in the middle of the cam pin cut-out on your 5.56 guns. You know why? There's a standard, for the 5.56 guns. Seriously, go look - because I know you replied, and you didn't look. I wrote a pretty detailed post about this bullshiit, on short gas tubes. And why short gas tubes are really a big deal - not the small deal that others make them out to be. You should search for that post I made on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Somewhere there is a thread with BCG measurements showing why some length gas tubes end up short when combined with certain systems. Sure a rifle will function with a short tube but only when other parts of the system are adjusted. I am betting an Armalite rifle gas tube will put it right near the middle of the cutout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 10 hours ago, 98Z5V said: You don't know what I'm talking about. Go look at your 5.56 guns, and see where the gas tube ends in the cam pin cut-out. The gas tube ends directly in the middle of the cam pin cut-out on your 5.56 guns. You know why? There's a standard, for the 5.56 guns. Seriously, go look - because I know you replied, and you didn't look. I wrote a pretty detailed post about this bullshiit, on short gas tubes. And why short gas tubes are really a big deal - not the small deal that others make them out to be. You should search for that post I made on it. Respectfully.... I am familiar enough with AR's not to need to go and look... Lol ( I can visualize it even now, and am confident I could completely assemble one with my eyes closed except maybe the safety spring and rear pin spring ) Gophers first image in this thread shows some incorrect damage right at the cam key slot edges in the internal of the upper... and the BCG should show damage as well... at those contact points So, I would focus on that... and no offense, but not the short gas tube question. The damage appears to be peen'ed /hammered in...so something is wrong right there. I am not sure what would have enough of a twisting force to cause so much wear from so few a rounds... I would also love to have the upper in my hands to further examine. And again, "correct" or not ... mine still function fine with a short gas tube. All I am saying is the short distance from the gas tube into the PSA large frames has made no discernible function issues for me and mine. So, clearly it is working for all my 18", 20", and 22"uppers and 12.5" I helped my friend build. I AM curious what effect a slightly longer gas tube would produce v. a shorter one. Again especially since mine function very well even with my added limited gas flow. I suspect the difference would be slight since there is such a large volume of gas from a .308 sized cartridge. And after very closely following a crap load of PSA large frame threads... the shorter gas tube has never really been an issue. And if it was.. we would see far more of it posted here and elsewhere. FAR more.... so again "correct" or not it does work. I am still guessing ( since I haven't been able to look at it in hand ) Gophers AR has a gas leak some where... or it is dragging the BCG some how, and not allowing proper feeding. I base that on his comments, and it won't seat the bolt on a freshly fed cartridge. Personally, I would take the Monarch ammo out of the equation. ( and the ASC mag ) And try some XM80 first with the magpul mag. It clearly has enough gas to grab the following round... but somehow it isn't being allowed to seat the BCG. All the more reason I would love to see what is causing that peening. It might be a flaw in so many things.... at the vary least the burr needs to be removed from the carrier race way... it might have been left over from the incorrect recoil spring and buffer slamming around. .. Or it might be a out of spec BCG / incompletely milled upper receiver. Anyhow, those peened spots in the upper are most likely the first part of a trail leading to the issue. I would like to see even more photos of the peened area and photos of the BCG contact area. 98Z5V... I would love to get together and spend hours discussing our collective observations and experiences... I am sure you and I could ramble and chatter over the most odd AR issues . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) These are the peen marks I am concerned with....that is not normal. And could be the source of the BCG not seating 100% correctly So ... More photos please , Gopher . Edited July 15, 2018 by bfoosh006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, bfoosh006 said: All I am saying is the short distance from the gas tube into the PSA large frames has made no discernible function issues for me and mine. So, clearly it is working for all my 18", 20", and 22"uppers and 12.5" I helped my friend build. Here is the thread with all the BCG measurements from different makers. It would be great to make this a sticky and include the PSA BCG............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: Here is the thread with all the BCG measurements from different makers. It would be great to make this a sticky and include the PSA BCG............. I fully agree that needs to be a sticky... I love that thread. I added my PSA measurements in page 4.. Jan 7th , after reading it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 1 minute ago, bfoosh006 said: I added my PSA measurements in page 4.. Jan 7th , after reading it. Guess I should have kept reading Really needs to be a sticky in the 308AR parts section........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoosh006 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: Guess I should have kept reading Really needs to be a sticky in the 308AR parts section........... Lol.... and YES Sticky.... 1., So I can readily find it for reference ! ... and, ... 2 so us gunny folk can keep adding our measurements from the various BCG's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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