Bolts a Bit Tight It Seams

[DustBuster]

Hello 308 crew.

So, I travelled up to my Dads and reloaded a bunch of brass.  I learned first hand how miserable trimming brass is.  So I agreed with my pops and I only trimmed brass that  was over the Sammi max of 2.015. My bullet brass will vary a bit in neck length but it’ll be good enough for me.  It’s all been full length resized and I even crimped the bullets with the Lee Factory Crimp die.

when I was up there, Tested my carbine length spring and Heavy 5.2 KaK buffer and Bolt on some Dummy rounds, into the chamber.  Since these Dummys were without Powder Mass, I let the charging go from about 1/2 way closed and the bullet fed fine but the bolt stopped short of closing.  No matter what bullet dummy or real, I nearly have to let go of the charging handle from way back to get the bolt to seat the bullet and to close.  There is not much grease or oil in the lug region.  Are all the bolts so tight on lug tolerance that the bolt needs to have nearly full momentum to lock in?  I hope this couldn’t be a too tight of headspace issue.  What U Think??

[shooterrex]

It's not just the locking lugs. The gas rings on the bolt have friction with the bolt carrier. The design is for the bcg to travel the whole distance.

[98Z5V]

5 hours ago, DustBuster said:

Hello 308 crew.

So, I travelled up to my Dads and reloaded a bunch of brass.  I learned first hand how miserable trimming brass is.  So I agreed with my pops and I only trimmed brass that  was over the Sammi max of 2.015. My bullet brass will vary a bit in neck length but it’ll be good enough for me.  It’s all been full length resized and I even crimped the bullets with the Lee Factory Crimp die.

when I was up there, Tested my carbine length spring and Heavy 5.2 KaK buffer and Bolt on some Dummy rounds, into the chamber.  Since these Dummys were without Powder Mass, I let the charging go from about 1/2 way closed and the bullet fed fine but the bolt stopped short of closing.  No matter what bullet dummy or real, I nearly have to let go of the charging handle from way back to get the bolt to seat the bullet and to close.  There is not much grease or oil in the lug region.  Are all the bolts so tight on lug tolerance that the bolt needs to have nearly full momentum to lock in?  I hope this couldn’t be a too tight of headspace issue.  What U Think??

Sounds like you're riding the charging handle.  Never do this, on a .308AR.  Ever.  If you're pulling the charging handle back, you let that thing run from full-whack, yank it back until it slips out of your hand and let it ride.  If you're loading from an empty mag, bolt locked back, hit the mag release and let it fly.

You're riding the charging handle, playing with dummy rounds.  You need to go shoot the gun, and let it cycle like it's supposed to cycle.

You're inventing a test-criteria  - "because you have no powder mass" - you're inventing a test criteria that doesn't exist.  Shoot the gun.

THIS IS NORMAL...

You need to properly lube your weapon, too. 

I color-coded your statements, and my responses to each statement, to coincide.  Hope that makes sense. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by 98Z5V

[DustBuster]

Haha, Thanks for both of your expert wisdom.  Guess a steel bolt slamming into a steel barrel extension, even if a brass was not in there, would be just fine... I just got my gas block dimpled in one spot, and it took fricken forever to get a cobalt bit started.  It reinforced what you just said 98Z5V that Steel is strong poop!  I will be letting the charge handle fly !  Hope I don’t accidentally get my finger in there ever.  Damn I shoulda been a gunsmith, or a metal machinist, this precise work on the bench is super rewarding.  I’m a carpenter and in the past I’ve installed door closures, using a spring loaded center punch devise to dimple steel doors(much softer than barrel I bet).  I could not find that gizmo so I used a screw tip and that barely worked.  So I spent an hour or more spinning my drill bit and slipping off,,, finally I got a stable spin and ever so slowly tore through that nitrided surface.  I don’t have a dremel either.  It is done... Compensator crushed, Extralong Tube in...El Cheapo handgaurd on...I’m so close I can almost Imagine this thingamagigger working.  I still need to practice with my 29 lb wooden Trigger tester though.  Half breath...exhale slowly.... get pipe clamp out to squeeze....

[98Z5V]

15 minutes ago, DustBuster said:

 Hope I don’t accidentally get my finger in there ever.

That's called "Garand Thumb." 

Don't let a digit get in the chamber, when you let the bolt fly - like it's designed to do. 

This thing is designed to chamber a new round - or the next round - under full pressure.  Not reduced pressure. Not "halfway back" on the charging handle, and easing it in.  Let it rip, like it's supposed to do. Don't baby it - it was never designed for that.

"Garand Thumb" below. Don't stick your digits where they don't belong, in the cyclic process of the weapons platform, or you'll get bit. This vid is Slo-Mo - but it happens so fast that you didn't know what happened - until you fucked yourself up.  Keep your fingers out of the chamber...

Here's some real-time, to make it real.

Edited March 26, 2021 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

I'm totally shocked that this is even a Public Service Announcement here.  But, these days - no questions or comments are out of the realm of reality here.

It seems that Darwin left this all up to us, and left us hanging.  Now, we have to answer it. In the old days, you had to learn from your mistakes, but the internet has taken that all away now.

If you were a Garand owner - you only got "Garand Thumb" once.  These says, it seems like people just don't learn from mistakes.

Edited March 26, 2021 by 98Z5V

[Rsquared]

On 3/26/2021 at 4:31 AM, 98Z5V said:

If you were a Garand owner - you only got "Garand Thumb" once.

And THAT, is nothing bu the truth.

[Cliff R]

"It’s all been full length resized and I even crimped the bullets with the Lee Factory Crimp die."

Something often overlooked when reloading is the crimp.

Your crimping die MUST be set to crimp at EXACTLY the right moment during the bullet seating operation.  If it happens too early the additional movement/downward pressure from the bullet seating operation can further compress the case and "bulge" the end slightly.  In extreme cases it can bulge the case out as well.  This can and will make the round very tight in the chamber requiring too much force to get the bolt to close and in full battery.

Crimping is a good idea with any ammo going to be used in an auto loading weapon, but the dies must be set correctly and it's always better to sneak up on the end result vs just crimping the chit out of the bullet and hoping things work out well........FWIW.......

[Cliff R]

"If you were a Garand owner - you only got "Garand Thumb" once.  These says, it seems like people just don't learn from mistakes."

Correct, but on the rapid fire portion of the course (or if you are getting overrun by the enemy) things still often don't go as planned!

I bypassed all that when I shot completion in Military matches and used an M-14.  Never did like the Garand all that much right to start with, right down the noise it makes when ejecting the last round letting everyone know you are empty!......LOL.....

[unforgiven]

On 3/27/2021 at 9:57 AM, Rsquared said:

And THAT, is nothing bu the truth.

I thought my eyes were going to pop out. I retracted the bolt but didn't lock it back pressed the follower and mouse trap.

[98Z5V]

14 hours ago, unforgiven said:

I thought my eyes were going to pop out. I retracted the bolt but didn't lock it back pressed the follower and mouse trap.

That's something that you only need to experience ONCE IN YOUR LIFE...   to learn from...  Pain teaches lessons.  That's what kids today don't understand, and will never comprehend.  They need to get some broken bones, fucking around doing something that they weren't supposed to be doing.  Today, all the "Helicopter Parents" that run after them - not letting them eat a piece of dogshiit or get fucked up diving off the top of the jungle gym...   - they're doing their own kids a huge disservice.  Let 'em be STUPID.  That's where all the REALLY IMPORTANT LESSONS in life come from... 

Just realized I was on a Rant...  

[Sharpshooter]

Yeah, but you were right!

[Cliff R]

Agreed, but Darwinism still applies here. 

There are just some folks out there that that will NEVER get it.  I do CSI work for a living and see it every day.

My analogy of a drug addict is this.

The average person goes for a walk, they come to a fork in the trail.  They choose the path to the right and get mauled by a lion, barely escaping with their life.  Couple of weeks later and all healed up they take another walk on the same path.  They come to the same fork in the trail and NO FUCKING WAY they are going down the path to the right. ("Pain teaches lessons")

A drug addict does EXACTLY the same thing, takes a walk, comes to a fork in the path, chooses the path to the right, gets mauled by the lion, eventually heals up, then takes another walk on the same trail.  They come to the fork in the trail and son of a bitch they go to the damn right AGAIN!

When you figure out why they do that dumb chit again and again and again let me know?.........

[unforgiven]

8 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

That's something that you only need to experience ONCE IN YOUR LIFE...   to learn from...  Pain teaches lessons.  That's what kids today don't understand, and will never comprehend.  They need to get some broken bones, fucking around doing something that they weren't supposed to be doing.  Today, all the "Helicopter Parents" that run after them - not letting them eat a piece of dogshiit or get fucked up diving off the top of the jungle gym...   - they're doing their own kids a huge disservice.  Let 'em be STUPID.  That's where all the REALLY IMPORTANT LESSONS in life come from... 

Just realized I was on a Rant...  

Truth

[Magwa]

Bolts a bit tight huh? well Young man you should know that all tight things need lube and lots of lube dripping wet lube Like well you can figure out the rest! get yourself some Mobile one synthetic oil 30 wt. and soak your Bolt the whole thing in it for two weeks make sure it is clean when you start that stuff adheres to the metal at a molecular level after a couple weeks it will not take more it will always feel buttery smooth and is easy to clean Yeah just like that!

[98Z5V]

4 hours ago, Magwa said:

Bolts a bit tight huh? well Young man you should know that all tight things need lube and lots of lube dripping wet lube Like well you can figure out the rest! get yourself some Mobile one synthetic oil 30 wt. and soak your Bolt the whole thing in it for two weeks make sure it is clean when you start that stuff adheres to the metal at a molecular level after a couple weeks it will not take more it will always feel buttery smooth and is easy to clean Yeah just like that!

I know you have a better lube than Mobil 1 - I sent you some.  If you need more, let me know, brother.  

[DustBuster]

On 3/29/2021 at 6:28 AM, Cliff R said:

Your crimping die MUST be set to crimp at EXACTLY the right moment during the bullet seating operation.  If it happens too early the additional movement/downward pressure from the bullet seating operation can further compress the case and "bulge" the end slightly.  In extreme cases it can bulge the case out as well.  This can and will make the round very tight in the chamber requiring too much force to get the bolt to close .........., but the dies must be set correctly and it's always better to sneak up on the end result..

Yes, I could feel the pressure applied with the crimps, and I believe with the ammo I loaded up, they weren’t too severe as to bulge... my Dad Set the die as per instructions.  The shorter trimmed brass barely got a crimp and the longer trimmed brass got a proper good feeling crimp.  My average brass was 2.012 and the crimp die was set to those I think.  The tight fitting bolt happened on Non-crimped Dummy rounds, however, so I have yet to see if the crimped ones feel tighter yet, or go in with less force... don’t know yet.

I will be letting my charging handle fly, and soaking my bolt in a good Oily marinade.  Both good tips ...I also need to oil the upper receiver bolt track more, I see carakote starting to wear.  I have oiled up those tracks but I need to get them good and greasy... the oil is no longer there.  

I still have tons of AeroShell 33 and maybe I should just put that on the bolt tracks and lugs... after the Mobile 1 marinade.

Next Monday I will be sending aluminum chips into my hair and the gravel outside.. Won’t be long before I see if this thing will actually work.

gotta bore site it, I lost an eBay bid for a SiteMark cartridge laser, but I have a 45 dollar paint ball green lase with m-lok attachment coming.  I probably could point that through the bore throu a empty brass primer pocket, and check the laser at the muzzle end through another centered hole on a piece of tape... aim that rigid setup at something 25 yards out, and set my eyeball to the open sights, adjusting.  I have bore sighted my 30-06 Winchester just looking through the bore, trying to eyeball the center of the tunnel, but This is the new high tech era of lasers, I might as well make my own laser bore contraption!  

[98Z5V]

5 minutes ago, DustBuster said:

Yes, I could feel the pressure applied with the crimps, and I believe with the ammo I loaded up, they weren’t too severe as to bulge... my Dad Set the die as per instructions.  The shorter trimmed brass barely got a crimp and the longer trimmed brass got a proper good feeling crimp.  My average brass was 2.012 and the crimp die was set to those I think.  The tight fitting bolt happened on Non-crimped Dummy rounds, however, so I have yet to see if the crimped ones feel tighter yet, or go in with less force... don’t know yet.

There's no "I think" to reloading... 

You're new to reloading, it's obvious, because your dad set all this up, and you stated that he followed all the instructions - which means he's not that experienced in reloading, either, if he was following instructions - and not "reloading instinct."  All your brass needs to be trimmed to the exact same length, to apply the crimp, with the sizing die (if it has a crimp feature built into it). That's the hazard of those things, if you don't trim your brass to the exact same length, before that reloading operation - then you don't get the same crimp on them everytime. 

Longer brass - when you run them through that die - bulges the base of the shoulder, and the cartridge doesn't load into the chamber.  That's something that easily felt in the press, and it's something that's easily seen, in the brass, when you take it out of the press.  The bottom of the shoulder is bulged. That's why you look at every piece of brass that comes out of the press, everytime.

There's alot of unanswered questions here, and now it's all about reloading...  This just turned into a different animal, in this thread. 

[shooterrex]

See if your rifle will run on factory ammo first. Loading for a semiautomatic is different than for a bolt action.

[Magwa]

9 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

I know you have a better lube than Mobil 1 - I sent you some.  If you need more, let me know, brother.  

I use the awesome stuff for lubing my pistols and other small jobs I do not have enough to soak a complete BCG.. so if I am soaking something i use the Mobil but then when i lube it in the future I use The secret sauce... 🙂 still have a little bit...