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Self defense or not


Belt Fed

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15 hours ago, Doodle said:

98 you are indeed one of the reasons I'm on this forum.  An utter wealth of knowledge and one the the best m'fers on this forum.  I'm betting there's a ton of semi lurkers like I am, and we look to you for more technical knowledge than anyone will find anywhere else.

I appreciate the kindness, brother - really.  My goal is help people with this fat pig of a weapons platform - or any other firearm, if I know something about it.

You can give a man a fish, or teach a man to fish...    Help people if you know how to help them, lead them, teach them...   And they teach and help others.  And we grow, as a community. 

On the flip-side, there are the assheads that aren't really asking questions, but instead demanding information...   "Since you KNOW it, you MUST tell me..."   Those are the fun ones.  They can eat a dick, and for dessert they can choke on a bowl of smashed a$sholes...   Just because we HAVE information does not mean that you are OWED that information, ...   that took years worth of money, time, experimentation, and pain and failure - to gather...  

From your side, @Doodle, thank YOU for presentation.  Presentation is key.  Thank YOU for asking questions, and LISTENING to the information that has been presented.  And learning the gun.  When asked questions - we, as a whole, will help ANYBODY get their gun running, or modified, or whatever they're looking for.  People like YOU are the only thing that makes it all worth it.  Sincerely.  :thumbup:

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  If I'm on the jury, its a good shoot. Altho it probably wouldn't of went down this way at my house. I'd asked him to leave once, then its hands on, now either he's leaving or my wife grabs the 9 off my dash and performs a failure to stop drill just like Griz taught her (sighting fear of bodily harm from said criminal/trespasser)..seeing how our LEO is a county sheriff thats over 30 min away at high speed... ie, we had a stabbing here a while back and they responded 3 days to the hour later...yeah, he's getting shot if its my ground.

@Matt.Cross definitely agree with everything you said.

 

Edited by roach0415
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On 11/27/2021 at 12:28 AM, Doodle said:

 

If you leave and come back with a firearm, can any observer think you have not escalated the situation and become the aggressor?

Since the topic just got a comment and popped back to the top again, I'd like to offer a different perspective on this statement/question.

 

The guy went inside, grabbed the PC Carbine, and returned to the porch to face the (obvious) threat.

 

What would be the difference, if I had a Glock 43x under my shirt, concealed, took 4 steps backwards (away from the threat), and drew my concealed pistol to face the threat?   Create distance, present firearm, face threat whilst armed...

Just asking, not stirring, man.  That question is for everybody, not @Doodle directly...   :thumbup:

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This whole thing is a fucking mess.  It's a shiit-show, completely. 

Carruth (black shirt, the shooter) - his ex-wife is the District Judge that oversees this case.  Hmmm...  Their divorce wasn't finalized until 2 weeks after the shooting happened...   Hmmm again... 

What a clusterfuck.

https://www.lubbockonline.com/story/news/2021/11/26/chad-read-shooting-kyle-carruth-lubbock-judge-case-investigation/8765295002/

 

Edited by 98Z5V
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20 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Since the topic just got a comment and popped back to the top again, I'd like to offer a different perspective on this statement/question.

 

The guy went inside, grabbed the PC Carbine, and returned to the porch to face the (obvious) threat.

 

What would be the difference, if I had a Glock 43x under my shirt, concealed, took 4 steps backwards (away from the threat), and drew my concealed pistol to face the threat?   Create distance, present firearm, face threat whilst armed...

Just asking, not stirring, man.  That question is for everybody, not @Doodle directly...   :thumbup:

 

Self defense law typically requires the threat to be imminent.  So, there may be a disagreement over what is imminent here.

I know of an instance where someone leaves (obviating the imminent part, as they are no longer in immediate danger) and then returns with a weapon.  Use of such weapon has been found not to be self defense in an example I know of.  Not aware of an instance where someone returns to the former threat and it was held that self defense still applies, but that does not mean it has not happened.

The law and reality are often two separate things.

If the eventual shooter was pursued inside, I would say the threat remained imminent.  Like your Glock 43x example, the threat remained imminent and if there was a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death, then self defense would appear to apply.

An imperfect situation that will be handled by an imperfect system.

Note that in some jurisdictions, self defense only applies where there is no reasonable opportunity to withdraw.  That is you have a duty to retreat if possible.

 

(FYI, example I know of is where person argued with parking lot attendant, left to their vehicle and returned with gun, argued again with attendant, then when allegedly threatened, shot the attendant.  Shooter is in jail and self-defense did not apply.)

 

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In that sense, he came back brandishing a firearm as a display of force…which I’m sure they can find a way to charge something on him there. I believe the threat became imminent when when the attempt was made to take the firearm from him. Even to the point of telling him that is what would be done. 

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7 hours ago, Doodle said:

 

Self defense law typically requires the threat to be imminent.  So, there may be a disagreement over what is imminent here.

I know of an instance where someone leaves (obviating the imminent part, as they are no longer in immediate danger) and then returns with a weapon.  Use of such weapon has been found not to be self defense in an example I know of.  Not aware of an instance where someone returns to the former threat and it was held that self defense still applies, but that does not mean it has not happened.

The law and reality are often two separate things.

If the eventual shooter was pursued inside, I would say the threat remained imminent.  Like your Glock 43x example, the threat remained imminent and if there was a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death, then self defense would appear to apply.

An imperfect situation that will be handled by an imperfect system.

Note that in some jurisdictions, self defense only applies where there is no reasonable opportunity to withdraw.  That is you have a duty to retreat if possible.

 

(FYI, example I know of is where person argued with parking lot attendant, left to their vehicle and returned with gun, argued again with attendant, then when allegedly threatened, shot the attendant.  Shooter is in jail and self-defense did not apply.)

 

That's exactly why this one is a total mess, man.   I'm in agreement.  :thumbup:  Not gonna be a pretty court case.  The only thing I would offer is my view, just from a video.  Carruth is on his own land, at his own front door.  (Observation here...)...   Read (green shirt) kept escalating this, and would not stop the escalation.  Carruth steps inside to grab his carbine, re-meets the threat at the front door.  It goes up from there...  

On his own property, he should have no duty to retreat for safety.  The tresspasser should leave, as asked previously.

What I highlighted in red above, is exactly why I would've given that big fucker a boot straight in his sternum, and launched him straight the fuk off my porch -  create distance, and time - time to reach inside, grab that carbine, and confront the threat if he still feels like coming at me.  Once he can breathe again. 

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22 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

That's exactly why this one is a total mess, man.

And gonna make some lawyers a bunch of money, best liar wins. For me your analogy to backing up and drawing a glock is an eye opener. If I'm on the jury I'm thinking guy that lived there presents gun, guy that doesn't live there continues his schit, play stupid games win stupid prizes......... doubt I ever make a jury. 

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Agreed. I don’t feel he retreated. He went inside for backup and say “seriously…get off my property”. Green shirt dude thought he’d show what a badass he was and attempted to take the rifle. No way to tell what he would have done. Game over.  

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