Carrying With A Round In The Chamber...

[Turd Furgeson]

Kinda long at  40 min., but good information.

 

 

[shooterrex]

My carry gun is emergency equipment. Emergency equipment should be ready to go when required.

[98Z5V]

Always.  I don't necessarily transport extra firearms with one in the chamber, but if it's on my body, it's ready to go.

[Cliff R]

Couple of things to consider here, and forgive me I haven't watched the video yet.  In the real World there are just a lot of folks out there who should NOT be carrying striker fired auto pistols, or even auto pistols for concealed carry nor should they be using them for home defense.  Yes, you read that correctly.

Right to start with "most people" don't practice loading and unloading them, and when they do they don't step outside and point the pistol toward a a suitable backstop, bucket full of sand, or in a safe direction.  I'd also add here that a striker fired pistol w/o a working safety is the MOST dangerous type of weapon you can have hidden or laying around your house with children around.

Most people don't buy the right holster for them, it either doesn't fit the weapon or doesn't fit them, or both.  Nor do they practice holstering the weapon, drawing and firing it.  Dangerous moments for sure especially if you are wearing outer clothing, a jacket or your blouse or shirt is untucked.

Most people never check to make sure that the magazine release didn't get pushed inadvertantly and the weapon is now pretty much useless.  Yes, this happens pretty easily and more often than you think.  I got in a habit of checking the magazine in my primary weapon frequently as I carried concealed daily for 16 year doing CSI work for the County (retired 02Jan2022) and carrying off duty dating back to the late 1970's when I started my career in LE.   In the last 16 years I've had the magazined drop down about 3-4 times.  So although not that often, and with the EXCELLENT holster(s) I was using it shouldn't have happened, it still did.  I got in a habit of every single time I'd get out of the truck at a crime scene that I'd push the magazine to make sure it was home, 99.99 percent of the time it was fine, but wouldn't you want/need the damn thing to work like it's supposed to that .01 percent of the time?

Most people seldom, if ever do periodical maintenence on their auto pistols as they can and will get dirty and soome lint packed into them if you carry daily.  Dry, dirty and gritty doesn't cut it so they need to be cleaned often.

Most people don't practice with them either.  They buy the weapon, fire it once or twice, then start carrying it around.  Without practice and repitition (it takes about 1000 repititions till it starts to become second nature) you will NEVER be truely proficient with it, and more times than not familiar enough with it to be able to reload/change magazines without looking at it or fumbling around some.

My primary weapon for most of those years was a S & W shield in 45, then replaced it with a Springfield Armory 45,  then went to a Hellcat in 9mm that last half dozen years or so.  I also carry a 5 shot stainless S & W 38 revolver because no matter what happens or how deep the chit gets that thing will ALWAYS go bang every time you pull the trigger.

Anyhow, with all that said I'm in the group that carries ready to go so there isn't any fumbling around or delay time the day the chit gets deep and I have to end someones existence........FWIW

Edited May 11, 2023 by Cliff R

[unforgiven]

^^^ I would concur with your observations brother. At a hunters Ed class an instructor pulls out his pistol chamber was empty, and tries to show how he could rapidly pull the slide and chamber a round. He failed to properly execute the move and all I could think of was "you are dead". I said " and that's why you have your pistol ready when seconds count". 

Now mix a striker fire with appendix carry, what could go wrong. Sadly many people still don't secure firearms at home. Just my 2 mags.

[Cliff R]

I was a SAI for 20 years on Active Duty and responsible to make sure all of the personel at every unit I was assigned to were thoroughly trained every 6 months per the requirements to maintain weapons quals.  Even so, I still saw many of these well experienced shooters "fumble" at times loading/unloading and often hesitate any time they experienced a weapon malfunction.  On a slow fire Marksmanship course they teach the shooter to stop firing, keep the weapon pointed down range and raise the non-firing hand to indicate a problem or "aliby".  

NOT good when half hour later you then teach the same shooter to get behind cover and make an attempt to clear the same weapon and make it operational again when something goes wrong.  I never liked that deal but had to obide by the rules in place at that time.  

Basically we play how we practice with these things, and there is no such thing a too much practice!

As far as striker fired weapons go I'm pretty fond of them as they don't have a huge transition from double to single action like the M-9 pistol.  Even so without an added mechanical safety they are a very poor choice for putting in your pocket, tossing under the seat of the truck, or just throwing them in a night stand or dresser drawer for home defense without being in a suitable holster to prevent an accidental discharge.....IMHO.....

Edited May 12, 2023 by Cliff R

[98Z5V]

11 hours ago, Cliff R said:

make sure all of the personel at every unit I was assigned to were thoroughly trained every 6 months per the requirements to maintain weapons quals.  Even so, I still saw many of these well experienced shooters "fumble" at times loading/unloading and often hesitate any time they experienced a weapon malfunction. 

Glad you brought that up - most Civilians think that Military personnel must be good with firearms.  Not so.  Most are NOT good with firearms, nor are most good at shooting said firearms, nor is safety their main concern (unless it's when they're on the qual range, with someone watching every move they make.).   Most military people are NOT "Gun Guys" in any stretch of the imagination.   I could go on, about military personnel and firearms, but I'll leave it at that.

[unforgiven]

Many people are reluctant to spend the money on ammo to become proficient.

[Cliff R]

"Glad you brought that up - most Civilians think that Military personnel must be good with firearms.  Not so.  Most are NOT good with firearms, nor are most good at shooting said firearms, nor is safety their main concern (unless it's when they're on the qual range, with someone watching every move they make.).   Most military people are NOT "Gun Guys" in any stretch of the imagination.   I could go on, about military personnel and firearms, but I'll leave it at that."

 

Sad but true.  I run a very "tight ship" when doing small arms training.  Remove your rank insignia and forget you are in charge of anything when you come to my range.  Everyone still gets the respect they deserve but I'll can your ass in a micro-second  if at any point you do NOT follow directions or create an unsafe condition while your on my watch!

 

When it come to shooting at least from what I've seen, which includes 20 years as a SAI, and having to maintain weapons quals for over 45 years for my LE career, is that in almost all cases the weapon shoots better than the person holding it!......FWIW......

 

 

[98Z5V]

15 hours ago, Cliff R said:

Sad but true.  I run a very "tight ship" when doing small arms training.  Remove your rank insignia and forget you are in charge of anything when you come to my range.  Everyone still gets the respect they deserve but I'll can your ass in a micro-second  if at any point you do NOT follow directions or create an unsafe condition while your on my watch!

Oh, I'm with you - I've very loudly lit up a bunch of Warrant Officer Pilots and Commissioned Officers on the range before, on the firing line, shutting the firing line down.  I don't give one Rat's Ass what your rank is - on MY RANGE, you belong to me, if I'm running it.  I'm the Range Master, Range NCOIC, Range RSO, whatever - you're nothing to me but another shooter, and I don't give a fuk what your rank is on your collar.  If you DIDN'T SUCK, you'd be my Range OIC...

Warrant Officer Pilots are the worst.  They complain afterwards, about "being corrected in front of "Junior Soldiers."  My response when they complain, is "Go take your ass to the Battalion Commander if you don't like my decision!"  I've never had a problem telling my Battalion Commander why I kicked that unsafe shiithead off my range.  Ever.  Warrant Officer loses that vanity argument, every single time. 

It's the same with jumping.  If I'm the Primary Jumpmaster of this calamity,  I'm the guy in charge of this whole enchilada.  If you do something unsafe, that action has no rank.  I'll bench your ass, or kick you off my jump, in a heartbeat.  It doesn't phase me in the least, what your rank is.  This is MY JUMP.  I AM the Primary Jumpmaster, and YOU are just another jumper.  You have no rank, above my Duty Position right now, right here.   You have two choices  - do what I say, or get the fuk off my aircraft.

[98Z5V]

For Jumping, I've tangled ass with Air Force Pilots before...  As soon as you asswholes opened the doors or dropped the ramps - this is MY AIRCAFT.  It's not yours anymore, unless you need to avoid some unsafe airborne condition that just came up.  You opened the doors, or dropped the ramp? Everything safe outside?...

  I OWN THIS FUCKER NOW...  It's all mine, and you'll fly it like I tell you to fly it.  

Been some spicy "disagreements" over that, in the past. 

Ironically, never had to have any of those conversations with Army Pilots.  Ever.  Hit your mission brief, plan it all out - they do exactly what you planned in the mission brief, never any issues.  Army Pilots Rock. 

[Magwa]

This is a great topic, with you tube and many other video channels I have seen a disturbing amount of former Military people show that appendix carry with a striker fired weapon is the only way to go.. I am sorry but I call bull$hit...what is the first thing we learn about guns as a child NEVER point ANY GUN at anything you do not want to destroy! that includes your Junk, leg,thigh, etc... OK rant over anyway I have carried concealed for over 40 years always one in the pipe ,if you ever need it you need it NOW not 3 ,4,or 5 seconds later!

   If you are not comfortable with one in the pipe then i suggest you get more training ,shoot more, and practice till you are, OR do NOT Carry and I agree with the danger of striker fired weapons they have their place with the right people with the right training but they are not a beginners gun.. I have carried 45acp cocked and locked for a very long time when I transitioned to 9 mm I went through several pistols till I found what I was comfortable with guess what it has a hammer and is single action double action with a decocker..... it is just the way I roll your mileage  may very but know your weapon inside and out like it was a old pocket knife.

[Sisco]

On 5/11/2023 at 8:28 AM, unforgiven said:

 

Now mix a striker fire with appendix carry, what could go wrong. Sadly many people still don't secure firearms at home. Just my 2 mags.

As the instructor in my CC class years ago said, “Striker fire, no safety and appendix carry automatically gives that pistol a decocker, but not the one you want”

This is a good thread with some good information in it.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Sisco

[Cunuckgaucho]

12 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

 I don't give one Rat's Ass what your rank is - on MY RANGE, you belong to me, if I'm running it.  I'm the Range Master, Range NCOIC, Range RSO, whatever - you're nothing to me but another shooter, and I don't give a fuk what your rank is on your collar. 

 

[98Z5V]

I've done it, brother, just like that ^^^.  Two biggest things were answering to the Battalion Commander why I lit up a CW2 and threw his ass off my range (that was ugly, until I informed the BC that this idiot had a Negligent Discharge ON THE FIRING LINE...).  Next ugliest was kicking an SF Captain out of my SOF Static Line Jumpmaster Course, immediately, when he literally missed a cut in a static line on another jumper, before a live jump.  Students JMPI, then Instructors go behind every student and re-JMPI every jumper.  That idiot missed a cut in a static line, that could have killed the jumper.  Had to go to the Group Commander and Group CSM over that one.  That student didn't re-enter the course, and did not graduate my course.  Nope. 

Standards are standards.  "Minimum threshold" is there for a reason - you meet it, or leave.  You don't get to make up your own rules and standards, on the fly.  Not when it can kill someone else. 

*** NOTE - there was an internal investigation over that cut static line.  That's some very serious shiit in an airborne unit.  It was the way the packed parachutes were stored on a top shelf, in the Rigger's Shed.  Pulling down the parachutes from the top shelf (and not lifting them up OFF the shelf) could cut a static line, partially.  4 other chutes with those cuts were discovered, before anyone ever donned them.  And the problem was fixed, forever, after that.  Practices changed. But that jumper could have died that night, over that, because someone that was in training to INSPECT THAT, missed it.  Had someone very proficient not done another JMPI afterwards (always check student work), we could have had a dead jumper - for nothing but laziness or a lack of attention to detail...

Edited May 13, 2023 by 98Z5V

[Cunuckgaucho]

I can apreciate attention to detail especially with critical gear. Makes you wonder if he to lazy to propery check when on course and when he was still being evaluated how complacent/lazy he will be later.

[Traveler]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:53 AM, Magwa said:

   If you are not comfortable with one in the pipe then I suggest you get more training ,shoot more, and practice till you are, OR do NOT Carry and I agree with the danger of striker fired weapons they have their place with the right people with the right training but they are not a beginners gun.. I have carried 45acp cocked and locked for a very long time when I transitioned to 9 mm I went through several pistols till I found what I was comfortable with guess what it has a hammer and is single action double action with a decocker..... it is just the way I roll your mileage  may very but know your weapon inside and out like it was a old pocket knife.

I have to say it's good to see that others are so like minded, my mindset is built on years and decades of my own do's and dont's, and consist of decocker/safety for CCW and a 1911 for car travel (condition 2) within half arms reach. Always a CCW or revolver at hand though. While I have been known to pocket an LCP Max when running out the door to get milk or something silly/quick, I stick by my safety/decockers and never appendix carry.

[Cliff R]

A quick story about CCW's.  

ALWAYS fire the damned thing and practice drawing and firing it.  I'll bet 95 percent if not more of the folks who buy and conceal these weapons don't do much more than shoot a few rounds thru it, load it up and start carrying concealed.  Most do NOT practice drawing it out from under you coat or outer garmets.  Ya, sounds pretty simple but it adds to your reaction times, so get good at it.

A few years back we leased a huge log cabin down by Old Mans Cave in Southern Ohio.  A bunch of couples went for a weekend Winter retreat.  The men all decided mid-day Saturday to take a walk on the property and do some shooting.  One guy had a Glock, full size but can't remember the exact model #.  It failed to feed every single time, jam, jam, jam so only good for one round no matter what you tried to do with it.  

He had purchased it new, it went right into the dresser drawer beside the bed and used for home defense.  After the trip he sent it back to Glock and it came back working like it should.  So just because you buy well made name brand chit it's still a good idea to make sure it works.

I'd also HIGHLY recommend to do a LOT of firing with the ammuninution you plan on using in the weapon.  Shooting hard ball thru your 9mm then loading it up with some very expensive self defense hollow points is another recipe for DISASTER.  I've seen a good many auto loading pistols over the years that just will NOT function reliably with certain ammo and in almost all cases it was some of that fancy stuff in 25 round boxes they price like it's gold plated.  IF you are going to trust your life on your auto pistol make sure it "runs" with your ammo of choice.......FWIW.......

Edited May 17, 2023 by Cliff R

[unforgiven]

Very, very true. Sadly 

[98Z5V]

15 hours ago, Cliff R said:

A quick story about CCW's.  

ALWAYS fire the damned thing and practice drawing and firing it.  I'll bet 95 percent if not more of the folks who buy and conceal these weapons don't do much more than shoot a few rounds thru it, load it up and start carrying concealed.  Most do NOT practice drawing it out from under you coat or outer garmets.  Ya, sounds pretty simple but it adds to your reaction times, so get good at it.

A few years back we leased a huge log cabin down by Old Mans Cave in Southern Ohio.  A bunch of couples went for a weekend Winter retreat.  The men all decided mid-day Saturday to take a walk on the property and do some shooting.  One guy had a Glock, full size but can't remember the exact model #.  It failed to feed every single time, jam, jam, jam so only good for one round no matter what you tried to do with it.  

He had purchased it new, it went right into the dresser drawer beside the bed and used for home defense.  After the trip he sent it back to Glock and it came back working like it should.  So just because you buy well made name brand chit it's still a good idea to make sure it works.

I'd also HIGHLY recommend to do a LOT of firing with the ammuninution you plan on using in the weapon.  Shooting hard ball thru your 9mm then loading it up with some very expensive self defense hollow points is another recipe for DISASTER.  I've seen a good many auto loading pistols over the years that just will NOT function reliably with certain ammo and in almost all cases it was some of that fancy stuff in 25 round boxes they price like it's gold plated.  IF you are going to trust your life on your auto pistol make sure it "runs" with your ammo of choice.......FWIW.......

Truth ^^^...

I won't carry a gun unitl it shoots 500 rounds, without a hiccup.  Straight, no issues.  Then it gets night sights, if it didn't have them already.  If, somewhere along that 500-rd journey - say it's round #458...  There's an issue, failure to feed, failure to extract, slide didn't fully go forward and seat the round - whatever it is. The issue gets resolved, and we start the next shot, and it's shot #1...   It starts all over again, until 500 rounds go through it absolutely trouble free, or I won't carry it. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by 98Z5V

[Cliff R]

I'm with ya on the 500 rounds thing w/o a hiccup.

I've went thru a good many auto pistols in recent years because they will not "run".  I've had ZERO luck with anything from Taurus and tried a Ruger LCP and it wouldn't run 100 percent.  My S & W 45 Shield wouldn't run either.  Neither will my S & W Bodyguard.  It will only run effectivley with 380 hard ball ammo.  The 45 Smith went back to S & W and thru their custom shop and got a full makeover, but I still woln't carry it.

In contrast my Shield in 9mm is 100 percent flawless, and eats anything.  So is my full size M & P, never jams no matter what.  

I've moved over to Springfield Armory for carry pistols aside from my 5 shot S & W 38.  Currently carrying a Hellcat and it's never grumbled once no matter how many rounds I fire thru it or how much it is neglected in between.

For a back-up pistol hunting out West and camp carry I retired my S & W 629 44 Magnum (too heavy and bulky for my old ass) and carry a Springfield Armory Subcompact 45 instead.  I load it with 185 grain hollow points at 1135fps so it's knocking on the 10mm door pretty hard.  It not only runs flawlessly with them it's deadly accurate as well.

I've always been very fond of 45ACP and shot Bullseye Matches when I was on active duty back in the mid to late 1980's.  I sold my Colt Commander a while back because the sights were WAY off with my custom 185 grain high velocity loads.  The exit the barrel so fast it was hitting like a foot low at 20' and not much I could easily do about it plus I LOVE the grip safety striker fired Springfield Armory 45 so it made the decesion pretty easy.

As a Small Arms Instructor I highly advise folks I've taught in recent years to consider a revolver for home defense and concealed carry.  I bought my daughter a Rossi 5 shot 38 and she's really good with it plus none of her young children are strong enough to fire it.  Yes, 5 or 6 shots is PLENTY and they are a LOT safer for the "average" shooter than any type of striker fired auto pistol.  No magazine to dick with, don't have to worry about not pulling the slide back far enough to fully chamber a round, no jams, fail to feed or fail to eject, or the magazine release gets hit and the mag drops down leaving the weapon pretty much useless when you pull it out.  Plus you get the piece of mind of knowing that no matter what happens they will ALWAYS go bang when you need them to.

Little if any of this applies to most of the tough guys on here, but something to consider for beginners, the meek/mild, and those that don't have Pythons for arms and PLENTY of testosterone in their veins!....FWIW......

Pics below are my Springfield Armory 45, jammed S & W Shield 45, my custom 185 grain 45 rounds (on right) and one of the 185 grain bullets recovered after passing thru three one gallon jugs of water and putting a pretty good dent in a 2 x 6.......

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Cliff R

[unforgiven]

I'm down to 2 pistols for carry, Xdm Springfield armory 9mm and S&W Bodyguard.38 w/ laser. When I started I had a round count for all my firearms then I got lazy.on  Xdm had over 4k rds. without any issues. Brought it after watching 4k torture test on the pistol. Replaced battery for laser once and changed grip on S&W.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Cliff R said:

As a Small Arms Instructor I highly advise folks I've taught in recent years to consider a revolver for home defense and concealed carry.  I bought my daughter a Rossi 5 shot 38 and she's really good with it plus none of her young children are strong enough to fire it.  Yes, 5 or 6 shots is PLENTY and they are a LOT safer for the "average" shooter than any type of striker fired auto pistol.  No magazine to dick with, don't have to worry about not pulling the slide back far enough to fully chamber a round, no jams, fail to feed or fail to eject, or the magazine release gets hit and the mag drops down leaving the weapon pretty much useless when you pull it out.  Plus you get the piece of mind of knowing that no matter what happens they will ALWAYS go bang when you need them to.

I so wish many more instructors would spend more time on the "why a revolver can be such a good choice". I also wish more new shooters would/could think about the theory/actuality of operation of revolvers vs semi autos. My wife is so taken with MAC 11s and Tec 9s, but her first reach at night is for her five shot S&W at her bedside. 

[MtnMike]

Last time I went to the pistol range, I decided to retire my Sig p938 from my regular carry rotation.  Not a damn thing wrong with the gun.  It's been an excellent piece for a decade or so.  Retiring it because my eyes can no longer pick up the sights without having to take several seconds to focus.  Luckily, I still do just fine with my 365 xl with a Holosun red dot.  The biggest downside for me is that now eliminates pocket carry as an option.  Just can't do that with a red dot sight; too bulky.  IWB or nothing. 

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, MtnMike said:

Last time I went to the pistol range, I decided to retire my Sig p938 from my regular carry rotation.  Not a damn thing wrong with the gun.  It's been an excellent piece for a decade or so.  Retiring it because my eyes can no longer pick up the sights without having to take several seconds to focus.  Luckily, I still do just fine with my 365 xl with a Holosun red dot.  The biggest downside for me is that now eliminates pocket carry as an option.  Just can't do that with a red dot sight; too bulky.  IWB or nothing. 

I had the P238 - really really liked that pistol, and I would have another. Replaced for the same reason, but replaced with a Ruger LCP Max, I really wanted to keep the pocket carry option and the Max works.