survivalshop Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 Damn, I've been watching this topic closely, and I've been trying to stay out of it... <laughs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 From my understanding southern wi hasn't got a big meth problem, heroin is HUGE here the bigger city I live outside of has had 3-4 major heroin busts in the past year or so they say it makes for a good trafficking city due to it being on I90 and 30 min from Rockford Il or Madison wi, 2 hours from Chicago, hour and a half from Milwaukee. The scanner is going off nightly in rock county with heroin OD's I lost a very close family member and have a cousin who is a thieving junkie. Think the biggest thing is everyone here turns a blind eye or is unaware of it's presants OD's get printed as died unexpectedly. I understand these types of vehicles have there place but it don't seem very cost effective honestly couldn't you do the same thing with a hummer?? Not sure what ones costs but it's gotta be a hell of a lot cheaper then that fornicate'n thing?? Especially to be used maybe once a year??? Maybe! Think it's alittle over kill. And if a labs on fire I'm guessing they don't know it's a lab how's that going to save anyone? And if it's a known lab why in hell would you go in there?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 From my understanding southern wi hasn't got a big meth problem, heroin is HUGE here the bigger city I live outside of has had 3-4 major heroin busts in the past year or so they say it makes for a good trafficking city I understand these types of vehicles have there place but it don't seem very cost effective honestly couldn't you do the same thing with a hummer?? Yup, we're on the I-39 NAFTA highway from Mexico, bringing the illegal labor to our County which is an unofficial "safe haven" for illegals : they bring the heroin with them from the corrupt airports in Mexico. The latest Spring batch brought to work for Libby's/ del Monte will bring a fresh batch of ODs with them. Your County Supervisors are doing their best to look the other way for the Chamber of Commerce-I used to run the body bags and witness the O.D. autopsies in Madison. County Supervisors wanted nothing to do with collating the OD information-did not get a response from ONE of them. A Hummer isn't meant to carry a squad sized team, the BearCat is still the best option for that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenco_BearCat And that's about the greatest advantage the MRAPs and BearCats have, is to carry the team to the site, in one vehicle. Then, as with the MRAPs, you've lost the element of surprise and become a bullet magnet. It's a military vehicle built for IED prevention/detection and the deserts of the MIddle-east. Haven't needed one in the last 20 years outside of the sandbox, but like I said-Detroit/LA/Chicago? Sure, but 24 of them for this State? They are going to cause more problems than fix; maintenance and citizen perception/attitude towards the agency. You can paint it up and put Nascar logos on it, it's still gonna ramp up the number of ass-hats that wanna defeat it. So, when will the full on tanks become "acceptable"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magwa Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 Ok so if the Leo's get them when do civilians get them and on and on your comparison of the LEO's outgunned in LA is a good one but Civilians are always outgunned by whom ever chooses to either follow a order to abuse their jobs or abuse their publicly given powers . Every rual place has a drug problem a meth problem, is the solution more and bigger armoured vehicles? I don't think so the solution is to give fair punishment for the crimes commited by thugs and those who choose to break the law.... Where is the reward for being a tax paying law abiding citizen? 8 months ago I retired from the Fire dept. I was a Captain and member of the R>I>T> team meth is rampant here too just like everywhere , but instead of busting down the doors and taking un needed chances folks around here just wait em out they have to come out sometime... then arrest them I mean where are they going to go? It seems that Law enforcement has become to pro violence to eager to bash in the door where a little prudence might just pay off, I knew people involved at Ruby Ridge saw the aftermath it is something that should not happen in this country,but it does and seems to be heading in that direction again.Like 98 said it seems to be getting out of control.... I know most LEO are law abiding citizens that are serving their cities with pride but it only takes a small amount stink to make the whole bathroom smell bad.... lets focus on , no more plea bargains period, need more jails build them, make jail a place you do NOT want to go instead of a vacation , term limits and use our votes wisely...... Steppenwolf said it almost 50 years ago "Theres a Monster on the loose it's got our heads into the noose and it just sits their watching" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 Ok so if the Leo's get them when do civilians get them and on and on your comparison of the LEO's outgunned in LA is a good one but Civilians are always outgunned by whom ever chooses to either follow a order to abuse their jobs or abuse their publicly given powers . Every rual place has a drug problem a meth problem, is the solution more and bigger armoured vehicles? I don't think so the solution is to give fair punishment for the crimes commited by thugs and those who choose to break the law.... Where is the reward for being a tax paying law abiding citizen? I agree with you, and I should have been more specific. Those large areas (LA/Detroit) are where the riots are, which is actually what these MRAPs are most suitable for. The interesting angle of the WI story is that Superior has somehow already been approved for theirs. What's in Superior? One end of the Koch Brothers' tails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) Yes...because violence against innocent people and police is only restricted to large metro areas. Read above they are used in place of the 100k bearcat as cheap armor. There are 10,000 plus lawful warrants served every year in the country and sadly not all of them can be handled by Sheriff Andy Taylor tactics. Magwa is correct not all of them need a tactical team to serve them, but fewer are candidates that you invite to the courthouse to have coffee and turn themselves in. There are some really bad criminals that don't give a damn about badges or killing as many people as it takes to get away. Edited April 21, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 The interesting angle of the WI story is that Superior has somehow already been approved for theirs. What's in Superior? One end of the Koch Brothers' tails. A lot of junkies, tweekers and drugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted April 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 Yes...because violence against innocent people and police is only restricted to large metro areas. Read above they are used in place of the 100k bearcat as cheap armor. There are 10,000 plus lawful warrants served every year in the country and sadly not all of them can be handled by Sheriff Andy Taylor tactics. LOL! That's some pretty funny shiite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 Saw this in the latest issue of Recoil : http://www.bv206.co.uk/ I likey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 22, 2014 Report Share Posted April 22, 2014 Nah, brother, you don't want to have anything to do with those. Used those bastards in Alaska. Army-wise, we call those SUSVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted April 22, 2014 Report Share Posted April 22, 2014 (edited) Hey, I want an M113. Miss working on/in/around those things.... Edited April 22, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Armory Posted April 22, 2014 Report Share Posted April 22, 2014 I wonder if Sheriff Joe's on the waiting list for one (or more) of them.....Joe is NOT on any waiting lists ! He is on top of the delivery lists ! Just wait for the PR photos with Joe sitting on the tank. And surrounded with Bearcats and MRAP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnatshooter Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 Does Warren County need an armored personnel carrier? - Express-Times - April 29, 2014http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/04/editorial_does_warren_county_n.html "County Prosecutor Richard Burke wants to use $214,000 in federal and state Homeland Security grants to buy a Lenco Bearcat — a SWAT-type vehicle that would be used primarily for injecting police officers safely into a crisis situation and getting them (and potential victims and injured people) out." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) This sums up the need, versus the intended use, pretty well. I think it all comes down to this: "Point of view is everything here. If SWAT members show up in a fortress on wheels to rescue you or your child, or to pick up a wounded officer, it’s insulting to even be arguing about the sticker price. On the other hand, if the same buggy trundles down the driveway to deliver a foreclosure notice, take away the kids in a custody dispute or confiscate the guns … you might be more likely to subscribe to the “jack-booted thug” view of increasing government power." Whether they need it or not - located close to a very large metropolitan area. If they can honestly put themselves in a situation that has truthfully happened in the past, and can say, "during THAT situation last year (**or whenever**), we could have used something like that..." If they can do that, they'll probably be in another situation like that in the future. No such thing as coincidence. Edited April 30, 2014 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 ^^^^^^^agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 Not trying to beat a dead horse but Madison got there's as the news reports. Come to find out while commenting Dane county (where Madison is located) has already got a bear cat at free will of Madison PD at the price of gas to run it. I also shared the story on my FB page and was given multiple reasons from a friend as Oshkosh truck why they're junk and why the army has wear houses full of them. And then another friend who just returned from Afghanistan and has done numerous tours in Iraq and Afghanistan commented on they're integrity and said he'd be safer In a mini van. They maybe "giving them away" but what's the long term cost? And if OD's are getting them for the cost of shipping can I pay 5g's to get one shipped? I mean our tax dollars pd for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmist Posted May 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 And then another friend who just returned from Afghanistan and has done numerous tours in Iraq and Afghanistan commented on they're integrity and said he'd be safer In a mini van. They maybe "giving them away" but what's the long term cost? And if OD's are getting them for the cost of shipping can I pay 5g's to get one shipped? I mean our tax dollars pd for them? Nope, it's not a dead horse. The teams I've worked on here in U.S. have NEVER utilized a BearCat or other MRAP-like units as they do (2) things: 1.) The presence of those things on American streets ANNOUNCES that we're here! You lose every ounce of surprise needed to operate at a much safer level. 2.) They're a bullet magnet, and worse yet, when you set one on fire with say a molotov cocktail it's literally a coffin. As your Vet friend also noted they are easily defeated in so many ways, that have been well-known via many sources, that it just brings us back full-circle to what these MRAPs were originally built for : transport through an I.E.D. heavy territory. Thank God we had the resources and tech to build them and help in the sandbox, but yes, I'd love to have one for fishing as I don't think we'd ever get stuck at another boat ramp again. Might cave in the ramp for not holding 16 tons of steel, but I'm sure she'd dig out.... <dontknow> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted May 9, 2014 Report Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Nope, it's not a dead horse. The teams I've worked on here in U.S. have NEVER utilized a BearCat or other MRAP-like units as they do (2) things: 1.) The presence of those things on American streets ANNOUNCES that we're here! You lose every ounce of surprise needed to operate at a much safer level. 2.) They're a bullet magnet, and worse yet, when you set one on fire with say a molotov cocktail it's literally a coffin. I don't know your experience or which teams you served, but let me say that in the myriad of domestic operations that U.S. LE have to engage in, surprise is only one aspect of how the mission is accomplished. It would be nice if every subject could be taken unaware in their underwear, but incidents do not happen that way outside of the warrant service role. If your teams have engaged in any type of prolonged hostage situations/barricaded subjects or any other active violent incident scenes, then you would immediately know that showing up soft is a good way to acquire a few extra holes in you. True, armor is a bullet magnet, but a soft car is a bullet sponge. You wouldn't drop your body armor to run up a flight of stairs to a violent confrontation in an effort maximize your speed or surprise...or at least I hope not. Edited May 10, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted May 9, 2014 Report Share Posted May 9, 2014 You wouldn't drop your body armor to run up a flight of stairs to a violent confrontation in an effort maximize you speed or surprise...or at least I hope not. Great analogy Stain! <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I don't know your experience or which teams you served, but let me say that in the myriad of domestic operations that U.S. LE have to engage in, surprise is only one aspect of how the mission is accomplished. It would be nice if every subject could be taken unaware in their underwear, but incidents do not happen that way outside of the warrant service role. If your teams have engaged in any type of prolonged hostage situations/barricaded subjects or any other active violent incident scenes, then you would immediately know that showing up soft is a good way to acquire a few extra holes in you. True, armor is a bullet magnet, but a soft car is a bullet sponge. You wouldn't drop your body armor to run up a flight of stairs to a violent confrontation in an effort maximize your speed or surprise...or at least I hope not. Just checking into this one again, and I see I'm a week late. Where's greenmist, in his response?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnatshooter Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Indiana Gets US Military Weapons to Fight Returning US Veterans - Opposing Views - May 16, 2014http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/indiana-gets-us-military-weapons-fight-returning-us-veterans-video [excerpts]Indiana sheriffs and police chiefs claim they need the military weaponry to protect the public from former U.S. military vets who are heavily armed. “When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,” said Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department. “The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.” The Morgan County SWAT Team got a free $650,000 Mine Resistant Vehicle (MRAP) from the U.S. military, which will be used in hostage situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepp Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Indiana Gets US Military Weapons to Fight Returning US Veterans - Opposing Views - May 16, 2014http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/indiana-gets-us-military-weapons-fight-returning-us-veterans-video [excerpts]Indiana sheriffs and police chiefs claim they need the military weaponry to protect the public from former U.S. military vets who are heavily armed. “When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,” said Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department. “The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.” The Morgan County SWAT Team got a free $650,000 Mine Resistant Vehicle (MRAP) from the U.S. military, which will be used in hostage situations. FECK THAT GUY IN THE NECK!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 That's news to me. <dontknow> Fuk that guy. :bat: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnatshooter Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 FECK THAT GUY IN THE NECK!!!!! And his buddies, too, and all of their horses. US Veterans are being criminalized. Here are some tidbits. You will not be surprised to learn that people who sell mental cures are all over this like snot on Kleenex. Combat Veterans With PTSD, Anger Issues More Likely To Commit Crimes: New Report - World Post - 10/09/2012 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/veterans-ptsd-crime-report_n_1951338.html Veterans with PTSD at Increased Risk for Criminal Misconduct - GoodTherapy - October 23, 2012 http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/veterans-ptsd-criminal-misconduct-1023122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Indiana Gets US Military Weapons to Fight Returning US Veterans - Opposing Views - May 16, 2014http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/indiana-gets-us-military-weapons-fight-returning-us-veterans-video [excerpts]Indiana sheriffs and police chiefs claim they need the military weaponry to protect the public from former U.S. military vets who are heavily armed. “When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,” said Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department. “The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.” The Morgan County SWAT Team got a free $650,000 Mine Resistant Vehicle (MRAP) from the U.S. military, which will be used in hostage situations. This goes to prove what I just posted in the other thread, about law enforcement manipulating crime statistics to justify switching from revolvers to semi-autos. "Platoons of crazed armed veterans roaming our streets! This is why our SWAT team needs to partake in the 'Abrams for America' program." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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