98Z5V Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 When I got my DPMS LR .308 in 2002... Disappointing, man. You were on here at 4:38pm PST today, and you didn't address this thread. Very disappointing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 You are very correct. I am an H59 convert myself. Dammit. I gotta go get a horus-reticle scope now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 You're such a reticle-whore... :eek: :ugone2far: <laughs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 You're such a reticle-whore... :eek: :ugone2far: <laughs> ...and you're a cerakote slut. <lmao> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaRKle! Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Man this poop is just like the tech industry, one minute I get the best, MK6 with H58, and the next it's outdated because H59 came out! lol (I know the differences are small). Edited June 9, 2015 by FaRKle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.308 Lover Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Also, DPMS didn't make a .308 AR in 2002. I'm calling bull$hit on you, man. Bwahahahaaaa!!!!!!! BUSTED! Earliest reference of the "DPMS Panther .308" - what it was called when it was introduced - was from Jeff Quinn, Gunblast owner, in October 2003 - and he scooped everybody. http://www.gunblast.com/DPMS-308.htm According to the bushmasterassociates.com website (of which DPMS is a member), the first DPMS LR-308 came out in 2001, NOT in October 2003. Here's the link so you can see for yourselves: http://www.bushmasterassociates.com/pro_bushmaster/frontend/product.php?id=61 Here's what it says: "In 2001 (not a typo) DPMS expanded from its share of the .223/5.56mm market and exploded onto the .308 rifle scene. The LR-308, the first and foremost... Download Technical Sheet In 2001, DPMS expanded from its share of the .223/5.56mm market, and exploded onto the .308 rifle scene. The LR-308, the first and foremost of the .308 line, and for which the rifle series is named, is a rifle to be reckoned with. So much so that it was named the NRA Rifle of the year in 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) To my Edited June 13, 2015 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.308 Lover Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I looked at the catalog. I also went through the testimonials. The only military reference I could find in the testimonials was from a MSG Mark Delmont, with a faceless picture of two people. One in a black shirt that has "5049th USAR Infantry School" on the back of it. For some reason, I can't find ANY reference to a 5049th US Army Reserve Infantry School anywhere. Nowhere. It's a unit that doesn't exist, and didn't exist... I did find a Mark Delmont that's a Deputy Sheriff, on Linked. Wonder if it's the same guy?... https://www.linkedin.com/pub/mark-delmont/59/29a/b76 Then there's this guy on FB - gotta be the same guy. CCSO hat, and all. https://www.facebook.com/mark.delmont.1 Gotta be the guy that wrote that testimonial for them... Coincidences being what they are these days. There is also a video on the Shepherd online catalog (the one I told you takes a long time to load). If you did indeed watch the video, you would have seen several scenes of American soldiers blowing up mines (IED's, I imagine) using a rifle with a Shepherd scope on it. In the catalog it military trainers mention several times how quickly recruits pick up on the Shepherd Scope, making their jobs a lot easier. It looks like the military DOES have some contact with the military, or the military has some contact with Shepherd Scopes. O, BTW, below is a picture of the elusive Mark Delmont. He is in a Shepherd Scopes booth at the 2014 SHOT SHOW. Note that below his name it says "Military and Police Liaison". You can find this on You Tube. Here is a link to the page it is on: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=shepherd+scope+review 2:29 Shepherd Enterprises - SHOT Show 2014 - What the Stuff Outdoor Adventure TV by Swamp City Productions 1 year ago 1,272 views Transcript: With a product that literally started as a dream more than 30 ye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) I don't mean to interrupt your roll here, but seriously. On a very basic level, this scope doesn't facilitate shooter spotter dialog in any meaningful way which is absolutely essential to a successful sniper team whether they are simply gathering intel or engaging targets. I could go on about why this is not a "sniper's scope", but I would just bore you. I don't even see how a DM could use this for assault support. I appreciate your zeal for these scopes, but in the last several decades very little this scope has is compatible with what is being taught at any School House in LE or Military. Edited June 13, 2015 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.308 Lover Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I used scopes for years, been around scopes for years - militarily. Never once did I see this brand of scope on any military rifle. Thus, the question. I've never not once seen one in military use. Anywhere. Now, is it that military members use this brand on their own rifles, outside of the military? Possibly. Wouldn't doubt it. However, there's no branch of the US military that uses these scopes, that I've ever seen. I have to agree. And while I am not a member of the Military, I do dabble in the precision rifle community as part of my profession AND I, too, have never seen one of these scopes mounted on a working rifle. One of the best scope evaluation series around, hours of reading if you study the whole thing <thumbsup> The only place I've ever seen a Sheperd scope is the pages of Shotgun News.............. Google counter sniper scopes. Another brand who spent a lot on marketing to make people think they were getting "military grade" equipment. This forum is the first time I've even heard of Shepherd scopes. Probably not the only one. 98 and stain have been there and done that. If these scopes were used with any regularity in official capacity, they would have seen it. Not saying they aren't good, or that they didn't have the potential to survive real conditions, or that one was never used. I'm just skeptical it happened enough to disrupt civilian sales I'd heard of Shepherd scopes and they have a good reputation, but being out of stock due to military sales sounds like a salesman's pitch. Amen. I don't think those units would purchase the Sheperd Scopes. Not so much from a quality standpoint (because I can't personally speak to that), but from a practical application one. From what I can tell from the website, none of Sheperd's offerings marry up with what has been taught for quite sometime...at least that I am aware of. Are you affiliated with Sheperd Scopes? I was assigned to a Special Forces Group from 1995 through 2004. Nobody had a Shepherd scope on a work gun at all. Until I ORDERED and bought my Shepherd scope, I had never seen one. To this day (I have 2 Shepherd scopes now) I have never seen another one, except in a Cabela's showcase. Note: Cabela's does not have Shepherd scopes listed in their online catalog. They may not carry them anymore. I first learned about Shepherd Scopes in Shotgun News in the 1980's. No, I'm not affiliated with Shepherd Scopes. When anyone is considering a new scope, I might have you curious enough to check out a Shepherd scope. You would be doing yourself a favor. When I bought the P2 model in 1994, It was $450. That's a 3.5X10.5 with an adjustable objective and set for the 168 Sierra at 2700 fps muzzle velocity The V2 model I bought in 2008 (I think, the sales slip is in the box which is in my safe). It is 6x18 power and is also set for 2700 fps with the Sierra 168 Match King and works on the same 18" circle range finding principle. It was $850, but I can't remember if that was $800 plus tax or $850 plus tax. These models also work with other calibers. You get a list of calibers, bullet weights and velocities with which your scope will work in the box the scope comes in. Shepherd also makes a P1 and a P3 model which are set for lower muzzle velocities (P1) or for higher muzzle velocities (P3)/ The only thing I didn't like about my first scope was that the cross-hairs are a little thick. I just use targets that are easy to line up the cross-hairs on when I am shooting groups at 100 yards. Once you get so far out, I think it is 600 yards, the circles no longer have little cross-hairs inside of them so there is no thickness to worry about there. The reason I brought up Shepherd scopes is BECAUSE they are scarce. Not too many people I know of have seen one or looked through one, unless it was one of mine. I like the features on the Shepherd scopes so much that I thought I would share with you just how good these scopes are. Just because you don't know anyone who has one, or you have never seen one, doesn't mean that they aren't any good. In this case quite the contrary is true. Here's a link to Shepherd's catalog. http://www.shepherdscopes.com/2015Catalog.pdf Please have a look and pay particular attention to pages 23-28 where a bunch of military people (who supposedly don't use Shepherd scopes) can be seen using Shepherd scopes. I worked up a load with Varget powder that got a Sierra 168 gr. match bullet going just a little over 2700 fps so I knew the scope should be "on" clear to 1000 yards after I zeroed it in at 100 yards. This load grouped under 1/2" at 100 yards for 5 shots so I knew it had the potential to be accurate further out. The place I was working at the time had a sportsman's club with a rifle range that went to 500 yards. A guy I worked with belonged to that club and he took me shooting there as he wanted to see how the Shepherd scope worked too. So we went to the club and put up a 200 yard military target for open sights at 500 yards. This target has a black 18" circle with scoring rings on it which was imposed on a piece of off-white paper. Eighteen inches is just what you want to have and the target was a circle. It is very easy to line up a circle with another circle. We both shot my rifle and we both shot about the same sized groups. They were 3 5/8" (or very close to it) for 5 shots at 500 yards. My friend and myself were both very impressed with the scope. It is nice to know that with the scope I have, I zero for 100 yards and I'm zeroed for every hundred yards up to 1000 yards. All I really have to worry about is getting the windage right. In between every hundred yards is covered too, but you have to judge how far the target is by using one circle that is too small and one circle that is too big (both circles are located next to each other, of course). You hold such a shot in the middle of the two circles and shoot. You judge how far in between the circles to hold and shoot. You won't be too far off and you will probably get a hit if you do things right. It is really gratifying to know that when you take your rifle with the Shepherd scope on it, you are sighted in clear to 1000 yards. That rifle hits right where you hold the scope, if you do it right. I have low rings on my rifle (Remington Varmint Sythetic in .308 with the factory trigger adjusted down to 12 ounces) made by S & K in Pittsfield, PA. They are very low and they adjust for windage. Higher rings, even medium rings, would, I feel, through the scope off, more at longer ranges. The S & K rings and bases have been advertised for decades in Rifle and Handloader magazines. A guy named Dave Gentry has been making an exact knockoff of these rings and bases for a few years now. The patent must have expired. But these rings and bases are some more gun stuff I have that I am highly pleased with so I though I would share that with you too. I only wish some of you guys lived close enough to me so that we could do some shooting together and I could show you how quick and easy the Shepherd scopes are to use. Plus, we might become friends. Those with the same interests (in this case its shooting, especially rifles) sometimes have that happen to them. 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StainTrain Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Mr. Delmont is probably a great guy and may be a great liaison for the company, but let me share a personal story that happened to me within the past 96 hours. I contacted a very well respected and well known optics manufacture to purchase equipment. The person on the other end was with LE and Govt Sales. A heck of a helpful guy, a former LE Officer (Ret.) and absolutely clueless as to the how we were going to implement these optics. We joked about it, he was self deprecating as was I on issues relating the vastness of their product line. The interaction reinforced the fact that he is there to sell optics, not be a professional gun fighter...and to that end...he was successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.308 Lover Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I don't mean to interrupt your roll here, but seriously. On a very basic level, this scope doesn't facilitate shooter spotter dialog in any meaningful way which is absolutely essential to a successful sniper team whether they are simply gathering intel or engaging targets. I could go on about why this is not a "sniper's scope", but I would just bore you. I don't even see how a DM could use this for assault support. I appreciate your zeal for these scopes, but in the last several decades very little this scope has is compatible with what is being taught at any School House in LE or Military. Thanks for your nice response. I never said these were sniper scopes, but I did say they could be used as such as the 18" range finding circles would work pretty well on a man from his belt to his neck. Very fast to line up and shoot. I guess the schools teach snipers how to multiply and turn the turret on the mil-dot scopes. The guy using the Shepherd scope could have half a dozen of the enemy down before the guy with the mil-dot scope even gets on his first target. I'll never be on a sniper team and I'll never be used for assault support. I'm 64 years old and I served 4 years in the military. Unless a war breaks out in this country, I just practice seeing how close I can put the bullets together, just like most people do. How about you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.308 Lover Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Since I have seen so many comments about how the military DOESN'T use Shepherd scopes, I will email Shepherd Scopes tomorrow morning asking them if they sell any of their scopes to the military and if they do, how many. If I get a response I'll post a copy of the email here. If I'm wrong, everyone will know it and maybe I'll look like a fool. But what if I'm right? Maybe the half-dozen or so who opposed me might look like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) I guess the schools teach snipers how to multiply and turn the turret on the mil-dot scopes. The guy using the Shepherd scope could have half a dozen of the enemy down before the guy with the mil-dot scope even gets on his first target. Snipers are taught to turn the turrets but not for the reasons you suppose. I won't say much on that except that holds are nothing new. Since I have seen so many comments about how the military DOESN'T use Shepherd scopes, I will email Shepherd Scopes tomorrow morning asking them if they sell any of their scopes to the military and if they do, how many. If I get a response I'll post a copy of the email here. If I'm wrong, everyone will know it and maybe I'll look like a fool. But what if I'm right? Maybe the half-dozen or so who opposed me might look like... You will not be right. There are no NSN numbers for Sheperd Scopes. Maybe a foreign military.....but not this one. It's not about looking like a fool or making someone else look stupid. The Military and Highly Competent LE have very strict requirements and the standards are very high. Edited June 13, 2015 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 How about you? I professionally use Precision Rifles on a weekly basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.308 Lover Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I professionally use Precision Rifles on a weekly basis. What kind of scopes do you use? Mil dots? Are you a sniper for the military or police? Just curious. FBI HRT maybe? Homeland Security? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) I run ACOG TA01-ECOS, Leupold MK4 3.5 -10 M3 Turrets Mil-Dots, Leupold MK6 3-18 H-59. I have used Hybrid Premier Reticles Scopes, various S&B, MK8 1-8 and many others. I am just a dude with a bunch of lucky experiences. Edited June 13, 2015 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Hey .308 Lover, shoot an email to Mark Delmont, and ask him about that "5049th USAR Infantry School." Where was that unit headquartered, and who was the Parent Unit? Since that pic is IN his testimonial, in the manner he phrased it in - one would ASS-ume that it's him with that shirt on... Shepherd Scopes certainly makes it look that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I am just a dude with a bunch of lucky experiences. Same here. Blessed with the assignments, and VERY blessed with the people that were in those units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 According to the bushmasterassociates.com website (of which DPMS is a member), the first DPMS LR-308 came out in 2001, NOT in October 2003. Here's the link so you can see for yourselves: http://www.bushmasterassociates.com/pro_bushmaster/frontend/product.php?id=61 Why did it take the Gun Media an additional two years to even mention the rifle, then? It was not introduced as the "LR-308," either. That is false. How is it that the NRA Museum Magazine first mentioned this rifle in their April 2004 edition? How is that? Are you telling me it took the NRA three years to publish information about this rifle?... http://www.nramuseum.org/media/365273/Apr%2004.pdf Ironically, in 2004, they stated it was the Panther 308. Imagine that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 According to the bushmasterassociates.com website (of which DPMS is a member), the first DPMS LR-308 came out in 2001, NOT in October 2003. Here's the link so you can see for yourselves: http://www.bushmasterassociates.com/pro_bushmaster/frontend/product.php?id=61 Just so you know, Mister Wizard - in 2001, what you're talking about is the Bushmaster BAR-10. Research that rifle's history. In 2005, its rights were sold to RRA. The BAR-10 was, what the LAR-10 is now, under Rock River. That "Gun of the Year Award" is not what went to a Bushmaster BAR-10 rifle, from the 2002 timeframe. You're trying to say that, based on some $hit you found on the internet saying DPMS is a member of some Bushmaster Associates website, that the DPMS LR-308 was made in 2001. That didn't happen. You also didn't own a DPMS LR-308 in 2002. Maybe you DO have a Bushmaster BAR-10. I don't know - you haven't posted a single pic of this rifle yet. If you really have a .308 AR rifle from 2002, it damn sure ain't a DPMS LR-308, or a DPMS Panther 308. Get your $hit straight before you start telling stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planeflyer21 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Just so you know, Mister Wizard - in 2001, what you're talking about is the Bushmaster BAR-10. Research that rifle's history. In 2005, its rights were sold to RRA. The BAR-10 was, what the LAR-10 is now, under Rock River. And, as Rene can attest, a damn fine rifle too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) And, as Rene can attest, a damn fine rifle too! You guys are almost as bad as the armalite owners. Edited June 13, 2015 by blue109 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 And, as Rene can attest, a damn fine rifle too! Fuk yea,damn fine rifle.....heavy @ 14.5 w/ 20 rd steel mag.But I eat my spinach.Love my RRA. <thumbsup> You guys are almost as bad as the armalite owners. Great company to be associated with. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 You guys are almost as bad good as the armalite owners. Fixed it for you <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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