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AdamO

Contemplating a SBR and need some NFA guidance please..

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So I've been bit by the .300BLK bug and my goal this year is to build a suppressed SBR.  I'm pretty sure the direction I want to go with parts, etc., so I'm not going to get into that.   This is about the whole NFA process and the 'gotcha's' to look out for.  I know NOTHING about any of this so go gentle - it's my first time...

 

 

So getting down to it, I'm debating the individual vs. trust route.  Thanks to AZ HB-2535 "Shall Sign" signed into law last July, getting CLEO sign-off really isn't an issue either way.  

 

I am worried about doing it right and not getting caught with my pants down. So here we go...

 

#1 If I do a personal Form 1 then I am the owner.... end of it.  Seems like it would leave my wife/kids in a pretty vulnerable position if I don't keep my SBR and paperwork on my person 100% of the time.  In other words... no leaving it at the house in the safe when I'm not there else, my wife (who has access to the safe) is now 'technically' in possession of an SBR that is not hers...  BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD!  So I'm thinking a trust is a good idea - and it's not about loopholes.

 

#2 What about the kids?  I could go the trust route and my wife would then be covered, but my kids who are under 21 and can't lawfully possess a hand gun would not be eligible to be on the trust and would then find themselves in the same scenario as my wife in #1?   Or is having the item secured a fair enough mitigation regardless of it being 'on the premises'

 

#3  What about constructive possession?  If I finally do wind up with a registered and assembled SBR.  What about my other AR-15's?  Am I technically in possession of parts to build an illegal SBR?  IDK?  How much effort does it take to swap uppers around?  Would I ever do that?  HELL NO!  I'm not stupid!  But the problem is bureaucrats ARE!  Same question stands if I build myself an AR Pistol while I wait.

 

Lots to think about and lots of different ways to mis-step.  Just wanted to hear how it's done from some of you folks that already have NFA toys and have danced the dance.

 

Thanks!

-A

Edited by AdamO

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I would go with the trust. That way, if anything ever happened to you, the wife or kids wouldn't have to jump through all the ATF hoops to get it transferred into one of their names.

 

As for storing it. As long as it's locked up in the safe. It's not being transferred to anybody.

 

Once you have the tax stamp. It doesn't matter about any of your other rifles. Just remember ( as you already know) that you can't snap that SBR upper onto any other lower.....legally.

 

Overall, the form 1's are easy to fill out. The pain is all in the wait afterwards.

 

Good to see you back. I was wondering where you had gotten off to. Hadn't seen anything from you in a while.

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Haha.. Yeah I'm like that on most forums.  I'll just start getting involved with other things for a while and then sooner or later I'll be back. Lately it's been crazy work and getting moved into a new house.   :)

 

I'm like an old penny.  You never know when or where I'll turn up.  Good to see you too buddy!

Edited by AdamO

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I did it personal, it worked out fine. As for your wife, she can be in possession. The deal is as long as it's properly registered and engraved you won't have an issue. It's not like you are the only one who can touch it. But for transferring to a family member the trust route is the way to go.

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So basically on the engraving, its either my name city and state if I do it personally or the trust name city and state if its a trust.

What if its a transfer? Does it have to be re-engraved with my info?

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Yes, your name or trust name, city and state. Not sure about transfer would assume (<-- you know what that means) yes, re-engrave.

I have more in the works. Getting a stamp is like getting you first lower.... Or if you're Tom, a gas tube roll pin!

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There is no re engraving for a transfer. It is simply the Makers name that must be engraved. If you are an FFl it is your name. Private form 1, your name. Trust form 1, Trusts name. 

Nothing after that.

 

As far as leaving it at home when only your wife is there that is a non issue. My toys were all done before the trust thing really took off and I have no issues with it. All future toys will be through a trust though with my wife's name included. It's a whole lot less hassle down the line if I die.

 

Derek over at AZEX Arms can set you up with a trust. He's great to work with and very fair in pricing. 

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So getting down to it, I'm debating the individual vs. trust route.  Thanks to AZ HB-2535 "Shall Sign" signed into law last July, getting CLEO sign-off really isn't an issue either way.  

 

Never was an issue for you down there - I know your Sheriff.  He signs.  <thumbsup>

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Once Nodak gets me my lower I'm sending in paperwork myself.

The only place I have seen reference to engraving personal information on the lower is on the various gun boards.

Nodak is the manufacturer of mine, not me, and their info is already engraved on it.

I'm filing mine as a personal.

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#2 What about the kids?  I could go the trust route and my wife would then be covered, but my kids who are under 21 and can't lawfully possess a hand gun would not be eligible to be on the trust and would then find themselves in the same scenario as my wife in #1?   Or is having the item secured a fair enough mitigation regardless of it being 'on the premises'

 

#3  What about constructive possession?  If I finally do wind up with a registered and assembled SBR.  What about my other AR-15's?  Am I technically in possession of parts to build an illegal SBR?  IDK?  How much effort does it take to swap uppers around?  Would I ever do that?  HELL NO!  I'm not stupid!  But the problem is bureaucrats ARE!  Same question stands if I build myself an AR Pistol while I wait.

 

on #2 if the kids are 18 they can be on the trust. They are just unable to BUY an NFA item through a dealer, but they are legal to buy one through a personal sale or use them if on a trust.

on #3 its generally only constructive possession if you have the uppers but have no pistol lowers or SBR registered lowers.

Once Nodak gets me my lower I'm sending in paperwork myself.

The only place I have seen reference to engraving personal information on the lower is on the various gun boards.

Nodak is the manufacturer of mine, not me, and their info is already engraved on it.

I'm filing mine as a personal.

this is incorrect. Nodak manufactured the receiver, however you are manufacturing the SBR, so your info also needs to be added to it.

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 Nodak manufactured the receiver, however you are manufacturing the SBR, so your info also needs to be added to it.

This is totally correct. YOU are manufacturing the SBR so your info has to be on the receiver.

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So for my Arizona brothers, who did you trust to set up your trust?

I saw the AZEX mention and I was also looking through azgunlaw.com.

The thing is if Im going through the trouble of doing a trust, I'd rather have one drawn up to cover my entire estate as well as handle the NFA stuff.

Who would you (AZ) guys recommend using? Preferably in the Southeast part of the state. Ill drive to Maricopa if I must but I'd rather keep it closer to home.

Thanks!

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We're looking at setting up a trust right now (not only firearms).  We were looking at a firm in Tucson, recommended by wifey's boss.

 

Then my inlaws needed something done locally, a small change to their trust, and it was like $800.  So they contacted a firm in Phoenix.  Small change to the trust, $150.

 

It's really all over the place.  I'd like to have a good, solid recommendation prior to committing on a law firm.

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A trust is the only way to go in it you can protect all your firearms from any wierd stuff in the event of your demise, it can have everything firearms related in it mags whatever. 1ST never comingle your personel estate and your firearms make two seperate trusts!!!!!!! that way your guns are seperate and only those named in the trust will have them in order of their possesion first you ,then wife , kids etc.

 

  another nice feature of a trust is you can put anyone you want in it for how ever long you like as long as they are able to have a NFA item, so example your brother comes up from where ever and you put him on the trust while he is there so while you are working he can shoot whatever he wants, then when he goes home remove him from the trust this way every one stays legal.get a laywer to write your trust.

 

  going the personel way anyone else who uses it is doing so unlawfully.... good luck and enjoy your new toys the whole process is pretty easy.... the wait is hard...

Edited by Magwa

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This is totally correct. YOU are manufacturing the SBR so your info has to be on the receiver.

 

 

I will be sending them a confirmation letter, I really don't see how pushing in 2 pins can be seen as "manufacturing".

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I will be sending them a confirmation letter, I really don't see how pushing in 2 pins can be seen as "manufacturing".

it is. Nodak sold you a receiver for pistol or rifle use, by assembling it with a shorter barrel + still having a stock, you are "manufacturing" the short barrel rifle. If you bought it from them as a complete rifle, it would be different.

Stupid as heck? sure, but it is still the way it is. What makes it even stupider is that the engraving goes on the lower, but its the upper that has the short barrel. How about the fact that on virtually everything except the AR15, it is the upper that is considered the receiver, not the lower..... None of what the ATF does has to make sense, it just is what it is.

Edited by EasyEJL

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going the personel way anyone else who uses it is doing so unlawfully....

only if you aren't there. so long as you are still there, you are considered to have possession even if someone else is shooting it.

what becomes really wishy washy then though is if you for instance go to the bathroom while they are shooting. that theoretically becomes illegal I suppose

Edited by EasyEJL

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it is. Nodak sold you a receiver for pistol or rifle use, by assembling it with a shorter barrel + still having a stock, you are "manufacturing" the short barrel rifle. If you bought it from them as a complete rifle, it would be different.

 

 

 

Or, a complete lower.  Not talking about a built lower receiver here - the entire bottom of the AR - a full lower can be transferred as SBR on the ATF Form 4.

 

Can't do that with a stripped lower receiver, though.  Not legal.

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"Shall not be infringed"

we all agree with that sentiment, but given the reality of the situation we'd all also prefer not to end up in the pokey

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