Army thinking of bigger bullet

[Sisco]

Saw this a while back.

https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2017/05/08/Why-Army-Thinks-It-Needs-Bigger-Bullet

[jtallen83]

They could easily solve this problem by putting a couple already in inventory 308 rifles in each squad. From the short time I trained with an M60 I can attest to the extra weight factor of bigger bullets. Even when the load is shared by other squad members the total number of rounds that can be humped is seriously degraded. There is a tradeoff to be made no matter what direction they go. The heavier bullet means nothing if they run out of rounds...............

[98Z5V]

3 minutes ago, jtallen83 said:

They could easily solve this problem by putting a couple already in inventory 308 rifles in each squad. From the short time I trained with an M60 I can attest to the extra weight factor of bigger bullets. Even when the load is shared by other squad members the total number of rounds that can be humped is seriously degraded. There is a tradeoff to be made no matter what direction they go. The heavier bullet means nothing if they run out of rounds...............

They're working on that.

I bolded two paragraphs below - the first one addresses Sisco's original post - there's alot missing from that article, and the information coming from two Generals is quite contradictory - they both agree with each other, but they both contradict the information on 5.56 power, and make themselves look like fools. 

The second paragraph address the new "need" for a new SDM rifle in 7.62...

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/05/25/army-chief-calls-for-762mm-round-for-m4-rifle.html

Military.com | 25 May 2017 | by Matthew Cox

The U.S. Army's chief of staff revealed Thursday the M4 Carbine's 5.56mm round can't penetrate modern enemy body armor plates and plans to arm infantry units with rifles chambered for a more potent 7.62mm cartridge.

Responding to questions from Senate Armed Services Committee members, Gen. Mark Milley conceded that the service's current M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round will not defeat enemy body armor plates similar to the U.S. military-issue rifle plates such as the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert, or ESAPI.

"The 5.56mm round, we recognize that there is a type of body armor out there, that it doesn't penetrate. We also have that body armor ourselves," he testified.

Milley told lawmakers Army officials at the Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, Georgia, have developed a new 7.62mm round to solve the problem.

"We have developed a pretty effective round down at Fort Benning," he said. "We know we have a bullet that can penetrate these new plates."

Sen. Angus King, I-Maine, asked if the new bullet will require a new rifle.

Milley said, "It might but probably not," adding that weapons can be chambered for various calibers.

However, the M4 would require a new barrel, bolt carrier group, buffer system in addition to a new lower receiver to shoot 7.62mm ammo, experts maintain.

He later told Sen. Joni Ernst, R-Iowa, there are systems on the shelf today that, with some very minor modifications, could be adapted to meet the Army's needs.

"I think there are weapons out there that we can get in the right caliber that can enhance the capability of the infantry soldier," Milley said.

He also told lawmakers that not every soldier will need a 7.62mm rifle.

"This idea that the entire Army needs the same thing all the time, it's not necessarily true," Milley said. "There are some infantry units that are much more highly likely to rapidly deploy than others and conduct close-quarters combat that we would probably want to field them with a better-grade weapon that can penetrate this body armor that we are talking about."

The subject of the 5.56mm round being underpowered came up at a May 17 hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee's Airland Subcommittee. Retired Lt. Gen. John Bednarek and retired Maj. Gen. Robert Scales Jr. testified at the hearing about the U.S. military's future small-arms requirements.

Ernst said that Scales testified about "a weapon that could fill the role of the light machine gun and the rifle."

"Is the need for a machine gun a higher priority than just a basic rifle?" she asked.

Milley said that infantry units need both to be effective. "I think what [Scales] is talking about is the Marines are adopting ... the M27" infantry automatic rifle, a version of the 416 made by Heckler & Koch.

"We are taking a hard look at that and are probably going to go in that direction as well, but we haven't made a final decision on it," Milley said. "The infantry squads and infantry platoons -- they've got to have an automatic weapon for suppression; they've got to have the individual weapon as well, so you need both ... to be effective in ground combat."

Sen. Jack Reed, D-Rhode Island, asked if the new 7.62mm round would still be considered a standardized NATO round that could be used by allied countries.

"It's a 7.62mm round, so I think the answer is yes," Milley said, promising to get a more detailed answer.

This is not the Army's first effort this year to equip infantry squads with 7.62mm rifles.

A recent directed requirement from Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Daniel Allyn prompted Army weapons officials to write a new requirement, and most likely they will conduct a competition that will result in the service equipping each combat arms squad with a new 7.62mm squad designated marksman rifle, said Matt Walker, deputy for the Lethality Branch at the Maneuver Center for Excellence at Fort Benning, Georgia.

[98Z5V]

Here's the info for my first reference above - you have two Generals that don't know WTF they're talking about, testifying about it.

First, they talk about how underpowered the 5.56 is, but they turn around and say SEALs use the H&K 416, to it would be the perfect weapon to field... Duh...  5.56...

Then, they're talking about this - which we've all seen firsthand - is NOT true...

“All the things that we could do to marginally improve it aren’t going to make a big difference, because the operating system is literally dependent on a puff of gas that blows a floating bolt back and slides it back into position,” Scales said. “And any amount of dust, in my case, dirt in our soldiers’ rifles — fouling from the round — will cause the weapon to jam.”

Read it all here:

https://kitup.military.com/2017/05/m4-carbine.html

 

[98Z5V]

Here's the info for my second reference above - a requirement for a new 7.62 rifle at the squad level.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/04/27/us-army-search-new-762mm-rifle.html

 

Ironically, IMHO, these are "Afghanistan-Problems."  These guys are looking at changing an Army-wide inventory level item because of a theater-specific problem.  That's METT-T, not a weapons-platform issue...

[Sisco]

Seems to me they need a system that is mission adaptable. They have their work cut out for them with the politics of weapons procurement.

[blue109]

This discussion came up on another forum I browse and someone posted this. Pretty good read. Believe the OP was an inf LT. in 1/25

Quote

I could see the switch to battle rifles being suitable for Afghanistan, and similar environments with similar combatants and their tactics. Normal engagement distances for 1/2 to 3/4 of the engagements I was in during my time there were between 800 and 1000 meters (with the rest being up close and personal ambushes, or a mix of the two). Weapons of choice for the AAF (Anit-Afghanistan Forces) / ACM (Anti-Coalition Militia) fighters, as well as Korengali Groups and Taliban/Al Qaeda/Mujahideen in the Korengal and surrounding areas were often PKMs, Lee-Enfields, Mosin-Nagants, Karabiner 98Ks, SVDs, PSLs, RPGs, DShKs, AGS-17s, RPKs, and RPDs. While most would think that AKs would be the most prevalent, in my experience the majority of the weapons we took off of dead bodies were of the 7.62x54R or .303 variety (there were quite a few AKs as well, but they were not the majority). Also in their arsenal was an M14 EBR-RI that they had taken during an ambush on 173rd Airborne, that they employed with devastating results (lost two brothers due to headshots from it). They also had other weapons and gear that they would employ that they had recovered during the Operation Red Wings and Red Wings II ("Lone Survivor" aka Marcus Luttrell) incidents from the Navy Seals and Army Rangers.  I wouldn't say that I necessarily had lower confidence in my M4 or M249/Mk 46 MOD 0 (weapons in 5.56 NATO), in light of what calibers the enemy was employing, but I knew if we became engaged at distance I was going to have to take my team and close the gap to become more effective against the enemy, and running straight up the side of a mountain (under fire) does lower some of your fighting ability due to fatigue by the time you reach a more suitable engagement distance with the enemy. But the fact that we still slayed bad guys regardless shows that the weapons are still effective in theater (at the distances they were designed for), you just have to have the raw physical strength, endurance, and stamina to close the distance. With my experience, would I welcome the introduction of battle rifles to the battlefield in order to make me more effective at range? Hell yes. If they would have done so earlier I would probably have a couple more buddies that would have come back with us, but war is war and you make due with the resources available to you, and do everything humanly possible and impossible to destroy the enemy and bring your brothers back with you. I don't think that accuracy was as much of an issue with the weapons as the power and effective range of the cartridge itself was. I would be happy with just swapping barrels out for 18" 1:7 barrels and issuing Mk262 MOD 1 ammo (would have made a world of difference and been cheap and effective). I think switching to something like the 6.5 Grendel or another 6.5 caliber would be a step in the right direction, if they would be willing to change more than barrels and bullets. While I was once able to repeatedly hit a guy at 700-800 meters with 5.56, it took multiple mags before he would stop getting back up to fight. Granted he was probably hyped up on some pretty good drugs, he was still in the fight (however at a reduced effectiveness due to multiple gunshot wounds, but still a threat).  On August 16th, 2008, there was a coordinated attack to overrun our COP (Vegas) with an estimated 75 fighters (at the time there were only 14 Americans at our COP, me being one of them, a small squad of ANA and 2 Marine ETTs). This day was pure Hell on Earth, everything that could go wrong did go wrong. Mk19 developed a malfunction that rendered it useless, bolt on the M2 broke so it was dead, and we were taking heavy machinegun and sniper fire from just about every direction imaginable from all around the mountain. Couple this with guys rushing the wire and getting inside and it was complete chaos. While you're focused on the immediate close threats, you have guys taking shots at you from 800 to 900 meters, and your longer range weapon systems are out of commission. Not a good situation to be in (considering that for the previous two weeks we had been in heavy contact and were running low on ammo/food/water, awaiting a resupply). The only semi-decent medium to longer range capable weapons that we had to reach out with were 2 x m240Bs, 2 x M14 EBR-RIs, and the ANA's one SVD and one PKM. I took control of our COP's observation post (OP Rock) and the squad that was there and tried to direct m240B fire where it would be most effective. The SDM was hit by a sniper round meant for me, but hit him right behind me as I moved at just the right time after the first shot passed across my chest (wasn't wearing my body armor) and hit a hesco. At this point, I made sure the SDM was good and he received aid from others with doc on the way. I picked up his M14 and with a good view of the entire battle from my position, started taking dudes out until I ran out of ammo for it. The ease at which I could reach out and touch guys with the M14 in comparison to the M4 was just ridiculous. I would scan for muzzle flashes on the surrounding mountains, dial it in, and in a shot or two no more muzzle flash. Never could you do that with the M4, these shots were all within 750-950 meters (all those long-range marksmanship classes paid off, as well as shooting since I was 10). We started running low on ammo for the m240Bs and with a lot of the guys that were taking shots at us from 800 meters + being gone, it was mostly down to guys that were 300 meters and closer, closing in every second. We ended up having to call in mortars from the KOP (Korengal Outpost) danger close to slow them down, and hopefully take a lot of them out. They fired just over 100 x 120mm mortars, with some 81mm and our own 60mm mixed in. All the while we also had the FO calling in 155 and 105 artillery on the surrounding mountains from Camp Blessing in the Pech. With the bombardment, the smoke got so thick you could barely see anything in front of you. That's when things got more interesting and up close and personal, walking through the low ground between the OP and the COP to get the injured on a bird, and then clear the area outside the COP of combatants. A plethora of frag grenades were thrown that day into the haze surrounding us, to great effect judging by the blood curdling shrieks and cries after some of them went off. When all was said and done the battle lasted a little over 8 straight hours (from about 2 hours before sun down to around midnight). Superior training and undying loyalty to each other is the only thing that separated us from the enemy (outnumbering us about 3 to 1). Had there been a breakdown in our training or our loyalty to each other, we probably would not have made it through the battle. They planned well, and definitely caught us by surprise with the shear amount of manpower and firepower employed, but we only sustained two injuries and no KIAs. Later in the night and the next day we received word of chatter that was picked up about the attack. Turns out we were able to kill or injure at least 3/4 of the enemy attackers, not too bad given the circumstances. The moral of this story is to make the point that weapons that are capable at range are needed as a base weapon. Had we all been armed with 6.5 or 7.62, the attackers may have never been able to make it as close to our base as they did, as we would have been able to effectively engage them at range. Instead only a handful of us were able to effectively engage at range, which is no good if you are outnumbered.  This incident took place about 5 weeks after the Battle of Wanat about 20-24 miles away.  Wow, so that got a little longer than I had intended (once I get going it's hard to stop).

Edited May 28, 2017 by blue109

[Sisco]

Excellent read. Pretty obvious like 98 says, in Aghanistan it would have been useful and life saving to have a larger, longer distance bullet. In Vietnam or the Philippines? maybe not so much.

[98Z5V]

38 minutes ago, Sisco said:

Excellent read. Pretty obvious like 98 says, in Aghanistan it would have been useful and life saving to have a larger, longer distance bullet. In Vietnam or the Philippines? maybe not so much.

It's not a problem in the Philippines - was there from Jan 2002 through August 2002.  We "assisted" the AFP in reducing the Abu Sayyaf Group from 1,000 members to 100 members during that timeframe.  The caliber smoked 'em.

[98Z5V]

This is personal to me. 

Quote

All the while we also had the FO calling in 155 and 105 artillery on the surrounding mountains from Camp Blessing in the Pech.

That area is a shiithole, and I was on the deployment that Jay Blessing was killed by an IED on.  He was the 2/75 Bn Armorer; Gary Toombs was the "contract civilian armorer" to the Bn, in the same HMMWV with JB when the IED went.  CSM Toombs was a Company Sergeant Major in 2/1 SFG(A) when I was there the first time, and moved over to Ranger Bn as the civilian armorer after retirement from the Army.  Bad MoFo.  Much respect for him.  He survived the IED that day, but it took the driver's compartment right out of the vehicle.

Edited May 28, 2017 by 98Z5V

[blue109]

22 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

It's not a problem in the Philippines - was there from Jan 2002 through August 2002.  We "assisted" the AFP in reducing the Abu Sayyaf Group from 1,000 members to 100 members during that timeframe.  The caliber smoked 'em.

just read about how bad the ISIS problem is getting over there.  Bet they are regretting giving us the boot now.

[98Z5V]

9 minutes ago, blue109 said:

 Bet they are regretting giving us the boot now.

Yep.  100% and then some. 

[98Z5V]

Zamboanga, Isabella, Jolo, Tawitawi... That's the last you go southwest from the "mainland," then you're in Indonesia.

That shiit was under control during Bush.  I'm just sayin'.

[Sisco]

1 hour ago, 98Z5V said:

This is personal to me. 

That area is a shiithole, and I was on the deployment that Jay Blessing was killed by an IED on.  He was the 2/75 Bn Armorer; Gary Toombs was the "contract civilian armorer" to the Bn, in the same HMMWV with JB when the IED went.  CSM Toombs was a Company Sergeant Major in 2/1 SFG(A) when I was there the first time, and moved over to Ranger Bn as the civilian armorer after retirement from the Army.  Bad MoFo.  Much respect for him.  He survived the IED that day, but it took the driver's compartment right out of the vehicle.

Thanks for doing what you did. It's not much but thanks.

[98Z5V]

Not to downplay it, but it's just a job, brother, seriously.  Just like any other job.  Sometimes the job is great, and sometimes it absolutely sucks a$s. 

I was lucky enough to be where I was, when I was, with the people I was with, at the direct right time.  Repeatedly.  That's like gambling, and winning.  That ranged a 10 year span of my life.

When the job absolutely sucks a$s is when you really, really appreciate the people that are going through that suck with you, just like you are.  Sharing that big bite of the shiit sandwich, and smiling as you choke it down...

You realize how strong they really are, collectively, and how strong they make you.  It's the sum of the parts...

[Magwa]

yeah but it is people like you who get it that make the difference for others that don't thanks will never be enough but you have mine and my respect as well for telling it like it is ....

[98Z5V]

On 5/28/2017 at 11:10 AM, blue109 said:

just read about how bad the ISIS problem is getting over there.  Bet they are regretting giving us the boot now.

Ironically, look what just hit the news...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/30/isis-linked-terrorists-in-philippines-take-hundreds-hostages-most-christian-priest-says.html

[Robocop1051]

This topic spurred us to reexamine our lineup. Aside from the .308 battle rifle and the .338LM long range rifle, we are going to add a 6.5cm to bridge the gap between the two. There's no denying the performance advantage of the 6.5cm after 600 meters vs the .308. This will also carry to 1200-1500, getting close to the .338LM territory. 

[survivalshop]

1 hour ago, Robocop1051 said:

This topic spurred us to reexamine our lineup. Aside from the .308 battle rifle and the .338LM long range rifle, we are going to add a 6.5cm to bridge the gap between the two. There's no denying the performance advantage of the 6.5cm after 600 meters vs the .308. This will also carry to 1200-1500, getting close to the .338LM territory. 

    Then you might as well make a .50 cal. too. There is no do all Cartridge , all are mission specific , some will do better then others in overlapping needs .

      It always seems everyone is looking for that magic Bullet & they seem to be always going backwards in Rifle cartages to try to find it . 

[jtallen83]

1 minute ago, survivalshop said:

    Then you might as well make a .50 cal. too. 

Patiently waiting........

[Robocop1051]

The problem is ROEs.  Nobody wants a 50 BMG, not even the military.  We did talk about making one… But chances are it would likely only be ONE. 

[jtallen83]

So now I'm a nobody.........

[Armed Eye Doc]

39 minutes ago, jtallen83 said:

So now I'm a nobody.........

He said he was going to make one.  How many do you want?

[survivalshop]

2 hours ago, Armed Eye Doc said:

He said he was going to make one.  How many do you want?

  Ya , how many can you afford , oh wait , a promotion 

[survivalshop]

2 hours ago, Robocop1051 said:

The problem is ROEs.  Nobody wants a 50 BMG, not even the military.  We did talk about making one… But chances are it would likely only be ONE. 

   I was being sarcastic about the .50 , but how about a 416 ?