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Primer Puncture


Phantom30

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17 hours ago, survivalshop said:

How do you figure its theory when he is having feeding issues & Bullet deformation , how is that theory ? Trouble shooting an issue with a Firearm you can't see or get your hands on , is a lot of theory , no choice .

 I 'm going to repeat myself again , because you are have a hearing issue , I never once said anything about the performance of said Cartridges or their performance in the Barrel or out of it . Thats for you & him to puff out your chests about . 

You go ahead & quote all you want , if you don't think a 10 deg. in Shoulder angle isn't a big difference & doesn't effect feeding of a Cartridge , you need to read more or go back to school . As I have said again , the problem is with this particular Rife & not 8K others .

What you build a few AR's & now you're an expert on all things Firearms related , Ok professor , maybe you should start designing them , I'm sure you will make a fortune .

& yes I can say this because I am a Gunsmith & have worked on hundreds of different types of Firearms for over forty years & repaired them ! You seem to belittle just about anyone that has an issue if it doesn't fall into a cut & dry fix or that doesn't agree with your said fix . Good luck 

SS, I have about 40 of these things.  ARs. Large and small frame, across MULTIPLE calibers.  I've learned what I've learned, THROUGH building these.  Myself.  I've diagnosed more shiit here than you have, and you are the, self-proclaimed, by you:

Quote

I am a Gunsmith & have worked on hundreds of different types of Firearms for over forty years & repaired them ! You seem to belittle just about anyone that has an issue if it doesn't fall into a cut & dry fix or that doesn't agree with your said fix .

I have these recoil systems down to a science - and you disagree with me on that because "your DPMS works just fine."  Good for you.  MY DPMS recoil system - the ONE that I have, from true factory parts - works fine, too.  It's a rifle recoil system.  First one I built.

You can try to belittle me all you want, you can throw your "gunsmith" credentials around all you want, talk all the shiit you want.  You can tell me about the "hundreds of different types of Firearms for over forty years & repaired them!" that you want.  I've been a professional user of the AR platform for 21.5 years, and that ended 12 years ago.  Since that beginning, I've been IN THEM for 32.5 years.  In ARs.  Only.  Now, you gonna tell me that you're superior to me?.... Should I BOW to you now, or later? 

You just stated above, that you have zero experience with either cartridge that's discussed.  You said it here:

Quote

I never once said anything about the performance of said Cartridges or their performance in the Barrel or out of it .

So, why are you in this thread in the first place?  You don't have any hands on with either of them - I have extensive hands-on with .260 Rem, and you didn't even know how similar that 6.5 Creedmoor was, to the .260 Rem - that really spelled it out to me.  You don't know what you're talking about, in THIS subject.  40 years, pro gunsmith, worked on hundreds, or not. 

Pierced primers - those were hot loads.  That's how this all started, before he sucked you in, with all the same shiit he always does.  That's how this guy does it.  I wasn't about listening to all his BS about mil-dot scopes and 1/4 MOA "superior" turret adjustments, LAST TIME he pulled this - you apparently missed that one, SS.

Read up on what you're trying to argue here - and at LEAST know what cartridges you're talking about, and defending to the death here - from a REAL HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE level.  Don't give me your theoretical "shoulder angle" BS on this.  I have plenty of friends with 6.5 Creedmoor guns, both bolt and semi - that DO NOT have this maginal "Bullet Deformation" thing going on in their guns - that I have personally, myself, shot. 

@survivalshop, you apparently missed the fact that the 22 and 24 inch barrels he's having the issues with, are Bear Creek Arsenal barrels  - budget barrels.  He SWITCHED his bolt to a "davidson" bolt- I asked if that was "Davidson Defense" and never - NEVER - got a response...  Davidson Defense ONLY deals in BLEM PARTS, that they get cheap from manufacturers, them mark them up and pass them on...  So, is THAT the company, that he won't answer about?...  Pretty much has to be - no other name in the business, besides "Davidson Defense."  So, @survivalshop, what was his blem with that bolt...  was it in material finish, or in material function?...  "Gunsmith," are you there?  What's his blem?  Finish or function, there?...

You @survivalshop, would be WAY better off defending someone with a bone stock first-gen PA-10, that argues about everything, than you'd be, right here, defending that which you are - and you don't even see that.  You don't know, that which you are talking about in this thread...

YOU are the "professional gunsmith" with all this experience, years repairing hundreds of these, and all that bulshiit, though

You're WAY smarter than me on this, so you tell me - you tell me what details you missed in this whole giant shiit-show of a thread, that you didn't catch, and I did.  YOU are the one that is WAY SUPERIOR TO ME on all this AR shiit.

To me, it seems that you can't take being challenged, and when you are wrong, you can't take it.  You missed ALOT in this thread - and you didn't even know it.  You don't know the parts named, you don't know the REAL differences in those two cartridges (that's not even what this thread started as), and you don't know how to FIRST start on diagnosing a pierced primer.

Fucking tell me where I'm wrong, and I'll jump my ass right back in here.  "Gunsmith." 

Edited by 98Z5V
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The evidence from the small samples above does show an increase in muzzle velocity between lots 11/10 and 16/78.  However, the difference didn't cause punched primers in the bolt gun.  All of the bolt gun primers felt smooth.  The near same velocities in the AR all caused flowing primer strikes on two different brands of rounds and all post strike primers felt burred to the touch.   Something other than ammunition lot muzzles velocities is happening here, which is the point in the origin of this thread.

Edited by Phantom30
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3 hours ago, Phantom30 said:

The evidence from the small samples above does show an increase in muzzle velocity between lots 11/10 and 16/78.  However, the difference didn't cause punched primers in the bolt gun.  All of the bolt gun primers felt smooth.  The near same velocities in the AR all caused flowing primer strikes on two different brands of rounds and all post strike primers felt burred to the touch.   Something other than ammunition lot muzzles velocities is happening here, which is the point in the origin of this thread.

Have you actually chronographed ANY of these rounds? I've never heard of anyone being able to determine muzzle velocities by reading primer strikes!

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On 7/25/2019 at 1:13 PM, Phantom30 said:

twins.thumb.JPG.167268672faedc11b2d3feb7cd8dc485.JPG

To me "twin" means that if we look at the loading data for a given barrel length, say 20" in this case, the same powder type/charge weight with the same exact bullet gives essentially the same velocity.

 

More or less the difference between a 260 rem and a 6.5 creedmore could be equal to or less than the differences between any two rifles of the same caliber as far as powder type/charge weight and exact same bullet goes. Two "identical" rifles in actual testing (handguns too) have been shown to exhibit as much as 150 fps difference in velocity in calibers like 30-06. Same make and model of remington 700, same barrel length, same ammo, etc.

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392heminut The last three of my posts go together, the muzzle velocities are choreographed and the casings have a direct one to one correlation.

willbird  This thread is not about caliber to caliber performance but about the specific function of my 22" Creedmoor AR and the effects of ammunition. chambering and the BCG

It has been purported that the culprit is the factory ammunition lot being more energetic than normal lots.  In this case that has been shown to be relevant, but it still doesn't answer why this rifle has started to eat primers verses the bolt gun firing the same ammunition.  Why does the bolt gun primers remain normal and the AR is leaving the primes raised and burred using multiple brands of ammo boxes shared between the two types of rifles.  Why has this BCG started to fail to eject the last round in a stack?  Has the primer burn thru effected the ejector, which by the way does appear scorched on the outer side.

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10 hours ago, Phantom30 said:

392heminut The last three of my posts go together, the muzzle velocities are choreographed and the casings have a direct one to one correlation.

willbird  This thread is not about caliber to caliber performance but about the specific function of my 22" Creedmoor AR and the effects of ammunition. chambering and the BCG

It has been purported that the culprit is the factory ammunition lot being more energetic than normal lots.  In this case that has been shown to be relevant, but it still doesn't answer why this rifle has started to eat primers verses the bolt gun firing the same ammunition.  Why does the bolt gun primers remain normal and the AR is leaving the primes raised and burred using multiple brands of ammo boxes shared between the two types of rifles.  Why has this BCG started to fail to eject the last round in a stack?  Has the primer burn thru effected the ejector, which by the way does appear scorched on the outer side.

Oh,this whole thing is "choreographed" all right.

You can't compare a bolt gun to a gas gun.  I have some ammo that I'll only load and shoot through a bolt gun, but I'd never shoot it through a gas gun, because it would blow a gas gun up.  Read into that, you'll see the meaning.

This thread turned into caliber to caliber performance, the instant you thought I didn't know what I was talking about on these particular 6.5s, because I'm shooting a .260 Remington. Regarless how many 6.5 Creedmoors I've shot, you dismissed it all, and I can quote that instance for you.

What bolt are you using, that you only identified as "Davidson?"  And when did you switch to that bolt, in the round-count history of your gun?  Is this bolt "Davidson Defense" or not.  If not, what "Davidson" bolt did you put in your BCG?

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4 minutes ago, Phantom30 said:

The Davidson Defense bolt is in a KAK carrier in the 24" gas gun not involved here.  Any switch in BCG's would have happened prior to the purchase of the 16/78 lot in question, so the round count stands.

Did you read what I wrote earlier about that company?   Have you researched that company?

Why don't you get down to the details, here, once and for all.  Tell the exact problem with the exact gun, the combination of parts on that gun - by the manufacturers (not just half-assed partial names of companies)...   So, now, we're not dealing with the 24" gun, at all?  Why was it even brought up in the first place then?

 

Edited by 98Z5V
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That rifle fired some of the round count in previous lots in the total S&B count.  Not involved in the lot 16/78 count under consideration.  The BCG in this rifle is a Toolcraft NiB, with standard 0.077" FP tip, single ejector.  Barrel is a 22" bear creek Arsenal (BCA) SS straight fluted 1:8 twist, 6 grove 6.5 Creedmoor chamber with their standard barrel extension.  The receivers are AP, gas system is WOA standard rifle length AR-10 gas tube with large match block.  JP recoil eliminator break.  Recoil system AP.

The SAAMI standard nominal velocity for 140gr 6.5 CM is 2690 + 90 FPS, even the so called hot box was well within the manufactures standard.  The COAL on the Defender rounds was 2.805, Hornady ELD 2.805, S&B FMJ was 2.740, SAAMI Mean average pressure limit is 62kpsi.  The standards do not discriminate between bolt guns and gas guns so they should be equally capable of firing factory ammunition. 

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20 hours ago, Phantom30 said:

392heminut The last three of my posts go together, the muzzle velocities are choreographed and the casings have a direct one to one correlation.

willbird  This thread is not about caliber to caliber performance but about the specific function of my 22" Creedmoor AR and the effects of ammunition. chambering and the BCG

It has been purported that the culprit is the factory ammunition lot being more energetic than normal lots.  In this case that has been shown to be relevant, but it still doesn't answer why this rifle has started to eat primers verses the bolt gun firing the same ammunition.  Why does the bolt gun primers remain normal and the AR is leaving the primes raised and burred using multiple brands of ammo boxes shared between the two types of rifles.  Why has this BCG started to fail to eject the last round in a stack?  Has the primer burn thru effected the ejector, which by the way does appear scorched on the outer side.

I do know from my own experience that barrel condition can effect pressures. I to have an interest in powder coated cast (or preferably cast, PC, then swaged) bullets in common semi auto calibers. In 350 Legend I was working with a load that seemed modest until I fired more rounds between cleanings, bore condition hanged with round count, and it raised pressures enough to cause visible effects on the fired cases.

If we go back into the historical texts of our hobby we will read about cupronickel metal fouling issues that would make a mess of a rifle bore, perhaps something similar could be showing up with what the importers refer to as "bi-metal" bullet jackets ?? If they are not strict about exactly what they are plating onto steel jackets, and how thick it is they could create a metal fouling issue that would differ from rifle to rifle perhaps. The same could be true of drawn jackets as well. The domestic mfg have gotten so good that we take them for granted IMHO.

 

Bill

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On 7/31/2019 at 4:02 AM, 98Z5V said:

SS, I have about 40 of these things.  ARs. Large and small frame, across MULTIPLE calibers.  I've learned what I've learned, THROUGH building these.  Myself.  I've diagnosed more shiit here than you have, and you are the, self-proclaimed, by you:

I have these recoil systems down to a science - and you disagree with me on that because "your DPMS works just fine."  Good for you.  MY DPMS recoil system - the ONE that I have, from true factory parts - works fine, too.  It's a rifle recoil system.  First one I built.

You can try to belittle me all you want, you can throw your "gunsmith" credentials around all you want, talk all the shiit you want.  You can tell me about the "hundreds of different types of Firearms for over forty years & repaired them!" that you want.  I've been a professional user of the AR platform for 21.5 years, and that ended 12 years ago.  Since that beginning, I've been IN THEM for 32.5 years.  In ARs.  Only.  Now, you gonna tell me that you're superior to me?.... Should I BOW to you now, or later? 

You just stated above, that you have zero experience with either cartridge that's discussed.  You said it here:

So, why are you in this thread in the first place?  You don't have any hands on with either of them - I have extensive hands-on with .260 Rem, and you didn't even know how similar that 6.5 Creedmoor was, to the .260 Rem - that really spelled it out to me.  You don't know what you're talking about, in THIS subject.  40 years, pro gunsmith, worked on hundreds, or not. 

Pierced primers - those were hot loads.  That's how this all started, before he sucked you in, with all the same shiit he always does.  That's how this guy does it.  I wasn't about listening to all his BS about mil-dot scopes and 1/4 MOA "superior" turret adjustments, LAST TIME he pulled this - you apparently missed that one, SS.

Read up on what you're trying to argue here - and at LEAST know what cartridges you're talking about, and defending to the death here - from a REAL HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE level.  Don't give me your theoretical "shoulder angle" BS on this.  I have plenty of friends with 6.5 Creedmoor guns, both bolt and semi - that DO NOT have this maginal "Bullet Deformation" thing going on in their guns - that I have personally, myself, shot. 

@survivalshop, you apparently missed the fact that the 22 and 24 inch barrels he's having the issues with, are Bear Creek Arsenal barrels  - budget barrels.  He SWITCHED his bolt to a "davidson" bolt- I asked if that was "Davidson Defense" and never - NEVER - got a response...  Davidson Defense ONLY deals in BLEM PARTS, that they get cheap from manufacturers, them mark them up and pass them on...  So, is THAT the company, that he won't answer about?...  Pretty much has to be - no other name in the business, besides "Davidson Defense."  So, @survivalshop, what was his blem with that bolt...  was it in material finish, or in material function?...  "Gunsmith," are you there?  What's his blem?  Finish or function, there?...

You @survivalshop, would be WAY better off defending someone with a bone stock first-gen PA-10, that argues about everything, than you'd be, right here, defending that which you are - and you don't even see that.  You don't know, that which you are talking about in this thread...

YOU are the "professional gunsmith" with all this experience, years repairing hundreds of these, and all that bulshiit, though

You're WAY smarter than me on this, so you tell me - you tell me what details you missed in this whole giant shiit-show of a thread, that you didn't catch, and I did.  YOU are the one that is WAY SUPERIOR TO ME on all this AR shiit.

To me, it seems that you can't take being challenged, and when you are wrong, you can't take it.  You missed ALOT in this thread - and you didn't even know it.  You don't know the parts named, you don't know the REAL differences in those two cartridges (that's not even what this thread started as), and you don't know how to FIRST start on diagnosing a pierced primer.

Fucking tell me where I'm wrong, and I'll jump my ass right back in here.  "Gunsmith." 

I'm not trying to be a dick and I'm going to remind you I'm on your side.

 But the platform is about as elementary as they come in comparison to many others.

How many M1A, Garand , 1911's or any other platform that were handmade when they were made are you well versed in?

The AR platform closely reminds me of a Jeep TJ.

Meaning, you study it enough the same problems present themselves to you time and time again.

The fix is relative across the platform and almost boring to work on.

Now,let's move on to some older hand crafted firearms, but still mass produced.

That's where a guy is worth his salt.

 

Edited by Ravenworks
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"SS, I have about 40 of these things.  ARs. Large and small frame, across MULTIPLE calibers."

You've got me beat, I'm just over 20 last time I counted, in just about every configuration, and 5 calibers and wanting to add a few more.  I only hand load for the 308, everything else gets factory ammo.  I've not ran into any pressure issues and don't expect to.  I learned many years ago to stick with slower burning powders and stay off the maximum listed powder charge on the first trip to the range.  Pay very close attention to recoil, muzzle blast, function, accuracy, velocity (consistency), and inspect all the fired cases for problems, especially the primers, they are a very good indicator when you are seeing more pressure than the weapon is happy with.

When I see signs of pressure, like flattened primers and heavy "crater" at the firing pin impact point, or burning thru, I stop firing those loads and go home and yank the bullets and back things off some, or try a different powder, or powder bullet combination.

Haven't seen it mentioned yet but I also give the barrel a GOOD cleaning.  They can start to build-up a lot of material, especially higher velocity stuff (some barrels are also a bit "rough" for finish as well) so you want to make sure that isn't adding to the problem..............Cliff

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On 8/1/2019 at 1:49 PM, Ravenworks said:

I'm not trying to be a dick and I'm going to remind you I'm on your side.

 But the platform is about as elementary as they come in comparison to many others.

How many M1A, Garand , 1911's or any other platform that were handmade when they were made are you well versed in?

The AR platform closely reminds me of a Jeep TJ.

Meaning, you study it enough the same problems present themselves to you time and time again.

The fix is relative across the platform and almost boring to work on.

Now,let's move on to some older hand crafted firearms, but still mass produced.

That's where a guy is worth his salt.

 

We've seen plenty - PLENTY - of evidence here of guys that show up (on this board) with a gun that doesn't run, after they've been "fixed" by their local "gunsmith."  We've had people right here on this board with issues that we caught instantly - WAY wrong gas tube, right off the bat, comes to mind. They come back later talking about how their "gunsmith" was soooo sorry, he didn't even know there was a difference between the DPMS-based platform, and the Armalite AR-10 platform...  Gunsmith, I'll remind you.

I kid you not.

Just because you're a "gunsmith" doesn't automatically mean you know EVERYTHING.  I'd ask any gunsmith, "How much experience do you have on the basic AR platform, and how much experience on the large-frame AR platform(s) - because there are several.  Just because the guy can make an AK out of rivets and sheetmetal,doesn't mean he can work on an AR and fix it. Just because a guy can make an entire 1911 from blocks of steel, with handtools, and it turns out to be a true competition gun - doesn't mean he can fix an AR with a problem.  I've been to a SIG pistol armorer's course - and I have a Ruger LC9 kicking my ass right now.  It took me 10 minutes to learn everything I every needed to know about every single Glock Gen that's out there...

Just because a guy might be ASE Certified as a "true mechanic" doesn't mean he can put a larger turbo on your racecar, larger injectors, and tune it - through custom EFI software...

You might find a guy that's a certified Porsche technician - that doesn't mean he can fix his neighbor's broke-down Saturn...  

These are just machines, nothing more.  They can't out think us.  But, familiarity with ONE machine, or 20 machines - doesn't mean you know everything about every machine...

I fixed a diesel tractor, and a NIssan-powered forklift, from basic engine knowledge (well, not so "basic,", but training).  I couldn't rebuilt a single-cylinder trash pump, and make that POS pump water - it kicked my ass.

I hope that makes sense...

Edited by 98Z5V
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Here's how I see this whole shiit-show with SS...

"I'm an ASE Certified Mechanic!!! 

DOCTOR%20ALEX.jpg

Yeah, well.  Tune my1500hp 2JZ build then...Just got it in the frame yesterday.

s-l1600.jpg

 

 

 

"I'm a GUNSMITH!!!"

MVC-020F.JPG

 

Hey, saw the sign outside.  Have a problem with my fire control group, it's sticking a little.  You can fix this, right?...

gau-17-gatling-gun-010.jpg

 

 

Running towards the "Gunsmith" safety corner or cry-closet, and claiming all your years working on hundreds of different firearms, does not make you an expert in any single weapons platform - unless you only "gunsmithed" on one platform those 40 years. 

Edited by 98Z5V
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Here's some of my .260 Rem load development, with 130 Sierra Game Kings...  I stopped right here, back to the drawing board.

Quote

So, those 130 SGKs, and my load of RL22.  That's a no-go.  That was 47.3 grains.  The first two rounds flattened and cratered the primers pretty good.  Nothing blew up, so I shot two more - it pierced those primers.  Fucking holes in them.  It's a fat projectile, too, so I had to load those at 2.750" to keep them out of the lands.  I didn't like that, but oh well.  That's how the first one checked out, and that's what I went with. 

Oh, I necked UP some .243 Win, too, and used it, because I had them (7 pieces, for some reason?...).

P1060672.thumb.JPG.57de67d3df29a0d87278111654b59c41.JPG

HOT loads.

 

Those 130s were already loaded, about 25 of them, but I didn't shoot anymore of them after that.  They'll all get pulled.

Here's some Barnes 120 TSX load development in the .260 Rem.  Sticking with this:

 

Got back out with the Accurate 2495 loads this morning, and some Barnes 6.5mm 120 TSX projectiles.  I'll keep the 37.4 grains as a charge for these 120TSXs.  At least I have a good hunting load out of the deal.   Should be 2656fps on this load.

P1060699.thumb.JPG.eddeb07d5c92417897a5cef5c2d62e14.JPG

Not pissing around this morning - got out the lead sled for this...

P1060700.thumb.JPG.6776fa1534f1f05093fa44be7cb37cf3.JPG

P1060701.thumb.JPG.f3fc150fb2252020f53d6bea8ec6b9a1.JPG

P1060702.thumb.JPG.c3624e039a4510b7aca66abba6dc9b58.JPG

To say I have "no experience" on this load development, cartridge, or it's familiarity with 6.5 C is assinine.  To say that "all Hornady ELD-Ms are gonna deform upon chambering," is also assinine.  To say that your downrange performance, with Hornady ELD-M projectiles WILL suffer - is assinine.  It doesn't. 

To offer up a pic of the new Hornady A-Tip, and think that Hornady made that, because their ELD-M projectiles were deforming-upon-chambering, is stupid.  Hornady made the "A-Tip" for YEARS. MANY YEARS.  But, for only ONE load - it was the "Hornady A-Max 750gr .50 BMG Match" load.  Hornady had already been making the "A-Tip" for ALOT of years, but only for that specific load.  They just decided to branch out, into other accuracy loads...  It wasn't because the ELD-Ms were "deforming upon chambering."  That's a singular issue, with a singular user here, and singular use of the cheapest parts he can find to build a gun.  That's all that is...

"Hornady 750 A-Max" - look familiar?  Been around for many years now...  but it doesn't look like any "other" A-Max projectile they ever made?....  How is that?...  Hmmm...

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/50-bmg-750-gr-a-max-match#!/

lg_989908270%2050%20BMG%20750gr%20A-MAX.

 

Edited by 98Z5V
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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks SS the bolt change recommendation solved the problems.  Switched from the 308W Toolcraft single ejector NIB BCG to the Toolcraft 6.5CM small tip FP 0.065" instead of 0.077" plus dual ejector.  Plus thoroughly clean chamber more often with 308W AR brushes and mop.  All is now well, shooting sub-MOA with my cheapest parts I can find DIY built rifle.

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